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CVS2 is actually pretty boring and slow without roll canceling. The same stupid bullshit that pushes Sagat and Sakura and Blanka and Bison from 'good' to 'really loving stupid' also pushes a lot of mediocre characters like Ken and Iori from mediocre to 'actually pretty okay.' And as far as everyone playing top tiers in high level CVS2... Having a well-defined top tier has never been a bad thing until Street Fighter 4 came out.
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May 24, 2012 16:32
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Marvels needs to die and replaced by Alpha2 arcade edition not psx edition
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May 24, 2012 17:09
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rivals posted:I think you mean practice for 40 minutes and lol right ahead of you by one pity point. thank goodness fayk couldn't make it for jojos and goons are lovely at windjammers Semi-related: how bad of an idea would Goony Battle Opera be? Run it in the same goofy Waseda style 2 on 2 character lock, some how pretend people are clever enough to change the system setting in games to 3 out of 5 rounds. in reality i just want to see clever/terrible team names.
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May 24, 2012 17:47
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Sade posted:CVS2 is actually pretty boring and slow without roll canceling. And it's boring and slow even with roll canceling. What's your point?
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May 24, 2012 18:00
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Not Dave posted:lol right ahead of you by one pity point. thank goodness fayk couldn't make it for jojos and goons are lovely at windjammers I will consider this.
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May 24, 2012 18:06
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interrodactyl posted:I will consider this. I wouldn't mind running it for a few weeks between goonbat seasons, as I clearly have nothing better going on. Honestly if you weren't doing a season 2, soonish or at all, I was going to run basically the same thing you're doing for goonbats 2.
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May 24, 2012 18:13
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nickmeister posted:So, why do you think some characters are good every incarnation and others bad every incarnation? I think this is due to straight up (largely subconscious) designer bias. Sagat and Chun's characters are defined by their strengths, great normals and solid specials, where Hawk is defined by his weaknesses, he's slow but he has great damage as compensation. You see the same thing in MvC3, for the most part the "cool" characters are in the upper tiers and the "goofy" characters aren't.
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May 24, 2012 18:40
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Fenn the Fool! posted:I think this is due to straight up (largely subconscious) designer bias. Sagat and Chun's characters are defined by their strengths, great normals and solid specials, where Hawk is defined by his weaknesses, he's slow but he has great damage as compensation. You see the same thing in MvC3, for the most part the "cool" characters are in the upper tiers and the "goofy" characters aren't. I play T Hawk in SF4 for laughs (few people seem to be able to deal with his 50/50 and his pokes). But I find myself wondering "if so many have 3 frame invincible wake up DPs, why not Hawk's DP? Why are there so few options with his Spire? I know he's a grappler, but why make him completely HOPELESS against zoning characters?" It seems especially odd when AE and 2012 saw characters in Super actually go from trash to usable or straight up badass.
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May 24, 2012 19:08
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interrodactyl posted:
Aw shucks, thanks interrodactyl. I hadn't heard anyone put it quite that way before, but it makes sense. But then, maybe it's a part of my overall strategy?  If only I took part in one more tourney. 
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May 24, 2012 19:27
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Not Dave posted:I wouldn't mind running it for a few weeks between goonbat seasons, as I clearly have nothing better going on. Honestly if you weren't doing a season 2, soonish or at all, I was going to run basically the same thing you're doing for goonbats 2. I'll probably just be running silly tournaments in the mean time every so often to fill up space, like SF4AE Remix (shoutouts to Zeipher) Akatsuki Blitzkampf SF2 Koryu Eternal Fighter Zero And other random poverty poo poo that no one wants to play. But you can feel free to make whatever tournaments you want! (Or if you're lazy, just give me suggestions.) I may also promote FT10s for a chance at racking up some pre-season 2 goonbat points. Just saying.
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May 24, 2012 19:32
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interrodactyl posted:A2G fixes made the game better but not any more fun So what you're saying is, it makes the game better and it's still just as fun. So why isn't it played more?
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May 24, 2012 22:30
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Since Goonbats is over for now; can I ask a really dumb question - what software do I need to participate in the next one? GGPO? Supercade?
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May 24, 2012 23:29
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GGPO and a way to connect to IRC
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May 25, 2012 00:08
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nickmeister posted:So, why do you think some characters are good every incarnation and others bad every incarnation? Sagat: Big, strong, two fast fireballs, an SRK, high damage because look at those muscles, also has good close-up game because he is the muay thai champion. Hawk: Slow, no combos, big damage up close but has a hard time getting in, a good command grab and two other worthless specials, condor dive is basically designed to be free combo on block. I mean no matter which game you put these two guys in Sagat is still gonna kick Hawk's freak face in because it is literally a part of the design of the characters that they are to be good and bad at these specific things. Characters like Rose are never going to be the best in any game ever because they are actually designed to be worse than other characters. Fireballs that are slower than most other characters, Soul Spire with slow start up and kind of safe on block, sometimes, and an anti air grab which means it is always going to be a worse SRK since it can't hit grounded chars. On top of that her supers are milquetoast so the only thing that could make her good is her normals, which varies randomly between games but even with her A3 c.MP it didn't help her much. Bisse fucked around with this message at 01:31 on May 25, 2012 |
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May 25, 2012 01:22
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Mike Z described the traditional process for making a grappler as "take away 75% of what everybody else gets, add a command throw." It's kind of a historical precedent at this point (and repeated in new games because it's "tradition") that grapplers be slow and have poor space coverage in exchange for a single, predictable big damage option. Part of what makes Wesker so good is that he's basically a grappler without any of the downsides. He has a fantastic command throw, great damage, and high health, but he also has great mobility, safe blockstrings, proper zoning, and other mixup options than just low/throw. Makoto in 3S is another good example-- she's not so anti-grappler as Wesker that people forget, but she's a COMPLETE character and that's part of why she's top 5 over Hugo. There's also the philosophy that Throwing Is Cheap so people get frustrated when they fight a good grappler (see: Solo Cerebella complaints).
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May 25, 2012 01:51
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Bisse posted:Because the character design itself dictates Sagat rocks and Hawk sucks. I mean look at it: That's never really a good excuse; there's a lot that can be done to give a character useful tools, no matter what their design concept is. For example, in SF4 T-Hawk's regular, non-EX Condor Spire (or hell, even just his forward dash) could have super armor, or he could have an EX Condor Dive that's fast enough to punish fireballs from midscreen, like Cammy's EX spiral Arrow. (Obviously the Condor Dive input would have to be different to give him an EX version.) I don't play T-Hawk, so I'm not sure if those specific examples would help his game enough, but in general, it definitely should be possible to buff him if Capcom was interested. Hell, Zangief has better tools to get in on zoning characters than T-Hawk does, and his character concept is just "big slow wrestler."
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May 25, 2012 01:55
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Bisse posted:Because the character design itself dictates Sagat rocks and Hawk sucks. I mean look at it: Rose is top tier in A2 and her only bad matchup is Zangief. 
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May 25, 2012 02:01
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Dias posted:Rose is top tier in A2 and her only bad matchup is Zangief. Yeah, but soul illusion is loving borked in that game. As are her hitboxes. And her Alpha Counter. And pretty much everything about her because gently caress that character. Chun-Li is better though.
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May 25, 2012 02:12
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Bisse posted:Characters like Rose are never going to be the best in any game ever because ITT, a guy who's never played SFA2. Anyway, my two cents on the original question is that a given series is going to put emphasis on the same fundamental tools, and characters who are strong in those categories will be consistently good. For example, consider Ryu and Ken. Fireballs are one of the defining characteristics of Street Fighter as a whole. Ryu, the character designed to have a better fireball, is consistently a better character than Ken (most notable exception to 3S, where fireballs are at their weakest). It's my understanding that KoF has a similar pattern where grapplers tend to be consistently good across games, but somebody who has actual knowledge about the games should be the one to comment on that. It's interesting to note that there are plenty of SF characters who hit all over the map too. Gief is a prime example being generally low tier in SF2 games but extremely good in SFA games (and generally high-mid in SF4 IIRC?). Other characters off the top of my head who have both been significantly good and bad in separate games are Dictator, Boxer (though I don't know if I should really count A3 Boxer), Cammy, and Blanka.
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May 25, 2012 02:34
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Ashenai posted:That's never really a good excuse; there's a lot that can be done to give a character useful tools, no matter what their design concept is. For example, in SF4 T-Hawk's regular, non-EX Condor Spire (or hell, even just his forward dash) could have super armor, or he could have an EX Condor Dive that's fast enough to punish fireballs from midscreen, like Cammy's EX spiral Arrow. (Obviously the Condor Dive input would have to be different to give him an EX version.) Well AE2012 did give T Hawk an ex condor dive done with 3 kicks instead. I haven't really read up or experimented with it much to know any real differences other than you can do it while jumping backwards.
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May 25, 2012 04:45
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Ryoga posted:Well AE2012 did give T Hawk an ex condor dive done with 3 kicks instead. I haven't really read up or experimented with it much to know any real differences other than you can do it while jumping backwards. It's also an untechable knockdown, and puts you in a much better place if blocked
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May 25, 2012 04:50
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inthesto posted:It's my understanding that KoF has a similar pattern where grapplers tend to be consistently good across games, but somebody who has actual knowledge about the games should be the one to comment on that. That's really character-dependent. It's not so much that KOF's system favors grapplers as it is that it has good characters that just so happen to be grapplers. As in, SNK grapplers aren't typically big, lumbering, sloppy giants like Hugo or Zangief. Some are even tiny compared to most of the roster (Ramon, Hinako).
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May 25, 2012 04:58
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Shiki Dan posted:That's really character-dependent. It's not so much that KOF's system favors grapplers as it is that it has good characters that just so happen to be grapplers. SF4 has Abel, who's a pretty good example of a grappler done right I think, and I seem to recall him actually being top tier for a while (before AE, in SSF4)
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May 25, 2012 05:01
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 FOR ALL YOU KIDS THAT WANTED GOONBATS IN THE MEANTIME BEFORE SEASON 2 WHILE WE DO SILLY GAMES http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/G786VRM That there is a link where you can give me feedback on what days to run games and what games to run. It can be whatever silly poo poo you want it to be. I'll evaluate it all on Tuesday and make some poo poo happen.
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May 25, 2012 05:49
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Abel is based off of SNK grapplers. Except not done quite right.
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May 25, 2012 08:06
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Shiki Dan posted:Abel is based off of SNK grapplers. Except not done quite right. I now want to see Abel with stretchy arms.
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May 25, 2012 08:14
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I suggested several games. One of them was Karnov. I loving LOVE Karnov (it has a really cool and simple combo system).
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May 25, 2012 08:47
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For those of y'all who play weird FGs on PC Guilty Gear x2 #Reload is 50% off on GoG.com. $2.99! (I have no idea if this is a good version of the game or not)
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May 25, 2012 13:10
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It's not the question of whether it's a 'good' version or not. It's a broken game and some combos don't work at all, but if you're the collector type, then go ahead. The game looks okay on PC.
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May 25, 2012 13:50
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I have finally gotten around to installing ggpo and playing some ST. My god am I awful at it. I take it my character choice isn't important, from what I gather the game is pretty balanced. I'm currently taking a like to Ken.
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May 25, 2012 14:29
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Mega Comrade posted:I have finally gotten around to installing ggpo and playing some ST. My god am I awful at it. People love ST but I don't know if I'd call it well balanced. Character choices are very important, because especially low-tier characters like Cammy have a lot of really bad matchups. Ken's alright but if you're going to play a Shoto Ryu is a better choice.
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May 25, 2012 14:38
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Crackbone posted:People love ST but I don't know if I'd call it well balanced. Character choices are very important, because especially low-tier characters like Cammy have a lot of really bad matchups. Ken and ryu have quite a few things making them unique and ken (both versions) is very good in st. Overall ryu is "better" I guess but he's not just "better ken".
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May 25, 2012 14:45
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Ken and ryu have quite a few things making them unique and ken (both versions) is very good in st. Overall ryu is "better" I guess but he's not just "better ken". I didn't mean to imply Ken is bad. But Ryu has a better toolset and I feel like new players do better with him.
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May 25, 2012 14:49
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I don't know what it is about Ryu but I just don't like playing as him (in any game)
Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 25, 2012 |
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May 25, 2012 14:50
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Mega Comrade posted:I don't know what it is about Ryu but I just don't like playing as him (in any game) Crackbone is right in the sense that ryu generally has a better skillset but ken is one of the better characters in the game so don't worry. Ken is one of the characters that you can learn without having to be that worried about any bad matchups. I assume you're using n.ken since you're new? There's lots of available footage of st ken players on youtube, and you'll have to learn some of his tricks and cheese. If you want to st chat or play on ggpo you can add me on AIM or xbl, FingersMLD.
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May 25, 2012 21:43
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If you want to see good Ken play, look up Damdai
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May 25, 2012 21:57
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interrodactyl posted:If you want to see good Ken play, look up Damdai Doesn't he play only O.Ken? At least he made an episode of that ST show with Seb on O.Ken.
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May 25, 2012 22:24
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von Braun posted:Doesn't he play only O.Ken? At least he made an episode of that ST show with Seb on O.Ken. He plays both, though he seems to favor O. Ken. This is a fantastic watch if you're starting out in ST and wanna learn N. Ken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRisoeMVfXQ E: oh yeah and since this O./N. stuff is probably confusing to new players give this a watch to learn about it: http://youtu.be/OoILSEQL9jE Jmcrofts fucked around with this message at 22:46 on May 25, 2012 |
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May 25, 2012 22:39
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Yeah it's N.Ken I think I'll stick with. I like O.Kens speed but as I still need learn the game as a whole, not having to tech throws will probably handicap me in the long run if I ever decide to pick up someone else as well. Thanks for all the advice though gents.
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May 26, 2012 03:46
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Shiki Dan posted:That's really character-dependent. It's not so much that KOF's system favors grapplers as it is that it has good characters that just so happen to be grapplers. Shiki Dan posted:Abel is based off of SNK grapplers. Except not done quite right. Pretty much this. Abel is essentially an offensive Goro with a rekka and less throws / defensive options, while El Fuerte is like Ramon (even down to the command dash cancel HP loops) with less combo-ability. Grapplers in KOF are generally very good characters and have varying playstyles despite having throws in common (Clark plays nothing like Goro who plays nothing like O. Yashiro, etc). Also many characters have a command throw despite not being grapplers (Iori, Athena, Takuma, Yuri, Ralf, Yamazaki, Blue Mary, Heavy D!, et al).
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May 27, 2012 15:44
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