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Just finished the first book. I was expecting many things, but I didn't expect Skeaos would be the goddamned Thing I'm curious enough to continue on to the next book, but I'm not seeing what the big deal is, either from the "hate" or "love" side of things.
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Apr 16, 2012 10:35
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The first book is just an extended intro. You'll decide whether you love or hate it in the next two books. Really, the structure of the first trilogy feels almost like a single novel stretched across three books. This can make book one kind of a hard read, but on the positive side it means that book three is like 2/3rds climax. adamarama: The White Luck Warrior is the child of a Goddess from Outside. He doesn't experience time the way humans do. Rather, he experiences all his moments at once since he's partially outside of time. Many of those things are things that haven't happened in the books yet, but from the perspective of the White Luck Warrior they're going to happen, are happening, and have already happened. The White Luck Warrior speaks to the Narindar before killing him and taking his place. The assassin Esmenet hires is actually the White Luck Warrior. This is why Esmenet is confused as to his appearance.
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Apr 16, 2012 19:34
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Maremidon posted:Just finished the first book. I was expecting many things, but I didn't expect Skeaos would be the goddamned Thing You should definitely read the rest of the trilogy, poo poo really starts to go down in the second book. The first book can be slow going at times (Esmenet and Achamian's storylines in particular) and suffers as a result of it.
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Apr 16, 2012 20:43
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Gah, I really shouldn't have read the author's blog while reading the series. I clicked on his link to that feminist criticism of Neuropath and found out that the Consult were hentai rape aliens or something? in the comments. That was a plot point I should have been able to  at on my own!
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Apr 21, 2012 00:22
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Maremidon posted:Gah, I really shouldn't have read the author's blog while reading the series. I clicked on his link to that feminist criticism of Neuropath and found out that the Consult were hentai rape aliens or something? in the comments. That was a plot point I should have been able to
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Apr 21, 2012 21:44
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Yep, the aliens would be the Inchoroi (who are almost extinct). Sucky thing to have spoiled because it's a nice slow burn, total mindfuck when you figure it out.
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Apr 21, 2012 22:08
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feraltennisprodigy posted:Yep, the aliens would be the Inchoroi (who are almost extinct). Sucky thing to have spoiled because it's a nice slow burn, total mindfuck when you figure it out. I think it was mentioned that the Nonmen were aliens so it wasn't THAT big of a surprise that there were aliens in the series, but it still sucks. Kind of reminds me of the Shadow Children from the second story in The Fifth Head Of Cerberus actually.
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Apr 21, 2012 23:35
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Maremidon posted:I think it was mentioned that the Nonmen were aliens so it wasn't THAT big of a surprise that there were aliens in the series, but it still sucks. I don't think that the Nonmen are aliens, can't recall reading anything that suggests that. They were around before the humans, though.
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Apr 21, 2012 23:59
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feraltennisprodigy posted:I don't think that the Nonmen are aliens, can't recall reading anything that suggests that. They were around before the humans, though.
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Apr 22, 2012 00:09
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feraltennisprodigy posted:I don't think that the Nonmen are aliens, can't recall reading anything that suggests that. They were around before the humans, though. I remember reading that legends say that the Nonmen believed that the stars were other suns and that they came to the world from the void, but I can't recall the specific passage.
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Apr 22, 2012 01:56
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Doesn't it say fairly early in this series that a Golden Ark fell from the sky? It became pretty obvious what the Inchoroi were with that. vvv The last book came out last summer, so they're not spoilers. Maytag fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 22, 2012 04:20
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Maytag posted:Doesn't it say fairly early in this series that a Golden Ark fell from the sky? It became pretty obvious what the Inchoroi were with that. Also, that's a lot of non-spoilered spoilers. 
coyo7e fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Apr 26, 2012 |
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Apr 26, 2012 06:20
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Maremidon posted:I remember reading that legends say that the Nonmen believed that the stars were other suns and that they came to the world from the void, but I can't recall the specific passage. That section is talking about what the Nonmen believed of the Inchoroi. It also says that the Nonmen learned that stars were other suns from the Inchoroi. Also it's a shame you got it spoiled, but there were already some really strong hints in book one. Remember the quotation at the beginning of the chapter where Esmenet is interrogated by that Consult guy? The Nonman King cried words that sting, "And now to me you must confess for Death above you hovers," Replied the Emissary, ever wary, "We are the Race of Flesh We are the Race of Lovers" -Ballad of the Inchoroi
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Apr 28, 2012 11:21
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Okay, so now I'm into the third book, and I have two questions. 1: Are the skin-spies puppeteering dead bodies, or do brand new bodies come with the package? 2: Am I supposed to be kind of in the dark about Kellhus's motives? I mean, I know he wants to meet/kill his father, but I have no idea what he plans to do afterwards or why. I have no idea what even motivates something like a Dunyain.
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May 1, 2012 18:41
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Maremidon posted:1: Are the skin-spies puppeteering dead bodies, or do brand new bodies come with the package?
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May 1, 2012 19:50
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Maremidon posted:Okay, so now I'm into the third book, and I have two questions. Based on the whole Cnaiür burying Sërwe as Sërwe helps him thing, I'm assuming that they're a race of flat out shapeshifters. Also the whole face made of fingers doesn't sound like a normal "well we just took a dead body and made this slight tweak".
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May 1, 2012 20:14
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Maremidon posted:
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May 5, 2012 19:12
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I was floored when Maithanet dropped that he'd deduced Kellhus' rationale for leaving Esmenet in charge of the Empire. Bakker's work is a rare example of an author presenting a protagonist who is unfettered from conventional morality, and pulling it off rather than devolving into a self-empowerment fantasy.
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May 5, 2012 19:27
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Ambiguatron posted:I was floored when Maithanet dropped that he'd deduced Kellhus' rationale for leaving Esmenet in charge of the Empire. Bakker's work is a rare example of an author presenting a protagonist who is unfettered from conventional morality, and pulling it off rather than devolving into a self-empowerment fantasy. eh, I don't know if we'll able to say if he "pulled it off" until the end, since it's clear that Kellhus developed his plan while he was still a POV character, but it was kept from the reader. It'll be interesting to see if it coheres once we see the endgame. Also, one of the things I really didn't like about the series was how stupid powerful Kellhus was before he learned sorcery--the first book in particular did read a lot like a self-empowerment fantasy to me.
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May 6, 2012 02:56
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Your mistake is in assuming Kellhus is the protagonist. We're not supposed to identify with him at all. Also he didn't know what he was doing until he had his Thousandfold Thought.
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May 6, 2012 06:47
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OriginalPseudonym posted:Based on the whole Cnaiür burying Sërwe as Sërwe helps him thing, I'm assuming that they're a race of flat out shapeshifters. Also the whole face made of fingers doesn't sound like a normal "well we just took a dead body and made this slight tweak".
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May 6, 2012 15:43
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General Battuta posted:That's pretty interesting. I'd always just assumed it was fantasy-Polaris. Is there a new Atrocity Tale I missed? I also thought the Nail of Heaven had to be some kind of astronomical phenomenon. I was thinking it could be something like the Milky Way for us, just maybe with a bit stronger visibility. (If I remember correctly, a part of our galaxy is visible in the night sky as some kind of milky street of stars, this is where the name Milky Way came from.) Or maybe a highly visible nebulae, like the rest of a supernova. Just a star or some kind of consult-artefact would be boring, though.
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May 24, 2012 16:10
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I love how bleak this series is. I was starting to get annoyed by how much crying Achamian does in book 2, but when you're the only thing that stands between an amoral monk who has mastered causality and a horrific race of sexual sadists I'd cry like a bitch too. I despise Kellhus as a person, but not as a character. Consider training yourself for your entire life to read the faces of men, what drives them and how they understand the world, and I don't think his mastering everything put before him is some thinly veiled mary sue power fantasy. The man is a human being honed to its full potential. Has anyone else detected the Buddhist influences in this book? Like the onta, the ultimate experience of "creation as created" sounding a lot like Eastern concepts of oneness/awakening, except that the men who perceive it can act their will upon the world. And the Dunyain, who seek to escape the passions and histories that condition all men, but go one step further by having zero interest in imparting this wisdom to anyone else. On the one hand you have the Inchoroi, who take the pleasures of the flesh to its sickening extreme, and on the other, the Dunyain, who have purged themselves of their passions and appetites. I think Bakker is trying to tell us the answer lies somewhere in between.
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May 26, 2012 02:01
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Edged Hymn posted:I despise Kellhus as a person, but not as a character. Consider training yourself for your entire life to read the faces of men, what drives them and how they understand the world, and I don't think his mastering everything put before him is some thinly veiled mary sue power fantasy. The man is a human being honed to its full potential. It's all apart of Bakker's message about human cognitive flaws and how circumstance makes us a lot more malleable than we realize. I remember him saying mankind needs to see how full of poo poo it is and well, that's what he's basically doing here. Yeah, it definitely is a lot more than some Mary Sue fantasy.
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May 26, 2012 03:10
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Edged Hymn posted:I despise Kellhus as a person, but not as a character. Consider training yourself for your entire life to read the faces of men, what drives them and how they understand the world, and I don't think his mastering everything put before him is some thinly veiled mary sue power fantasy. The man is a human being honed to its full potential. I buy the face-reading thing to an extent, but when he starts seeing what is essentially their internal monologue, then catching arrows in mid air and dangling the most violent of all men off a cliff by one hand, it breaks verisimilitude and creeps into power fantasy.
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May 26, 2012 04:38
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Seldom Posts posted:I buy the face-reading thing to an extent, but when he starts seeing what is essentially their internal monologue, then catching arrows in mid air and dangling the most violent of all men off a cliff by one hand, it breaks verisimilitude and creeps into power fantasy. I'll give you that. I suppose Bakker needs Kellhus to be nigh-invincible or he would have been dead by book 2, but come on. I love how the conflict between mind and body, the higher functions and bestial appetites are so well exemplified by Kellhus and the Consult. They both occupy the extremes of their side of the spectrum, and surprisingly Kellhus unnerves me (almost) as much as the Consult does. I finally want to say I've never dreaded a villain POV in a book, movie, or video game as much as I do with the Consult. Kudos to Bakker for crafting a set of absolutely horrific villains and not making the sexual element feel too cheap. It takes a lot to incorporate that in your plot without coming off deranged, and he's handled it pretty well. So far. e: yes I have read the warrior-prophet epilogue. Edged Hymn fucked around with this message at 13:15 on May 26, 2012 |
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May 26, 2012 13:10
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I can't find Kellhus to be a mary-sue simply because I'm horrified him and want him to die screaming. I some of this perception of his hyper-competence is unfounded though. He was clearly slipping in the Warrior Prophet and Thousandfold Thought. I know events have kind of trained us to assume that Kellhus has a master plan and is perfectly aware of everything, but he makes mistakes. His knowledge is imperfect and stunted though they are, he has on rare occasions let his emotions make his decisions for him. And I think he lost objectivity ages ago. Even a Dunyain can only take so much.
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May 26, 2012 18:12
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The Sharmat posted:I can't find Kellhus to be a mary-sue simply because I'm horrified him and want him to die screaming. Anything short of a horrible demise for Kellhus and I might just be inclined to rethink my view of him as a character. Stopping blades with your thumb and forefinger? Killing trained assassins like it ain't no thang? The fascination with Kellhus is his ability to appear to be such a warm and compassionate individual when in fact he feels absolutely nothing, and how he exploits the desire for meaning in the lives of those around him to further his own ends. The whole neo jesus thing, not so much. Sorry for posting so much, I love this series and I wish this thread was busier than it is after that misogyny debate. I for one think Esmenet and Serwe are some of the strongest and sympathetic characters in the series; I don't see where the misogyny comes from. Am I insane for thinking this? Like I honestly do not see it. They are fleshed out enough I can see beyond the sex .
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May 26, 2012 23:58
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Edged Hymn posted:Sorry for posting so much, I love this series and I wish this thread was busier than it is after that misogyny debate. I for one think Esmenet and Serwe are some of the strongest and sympathetic characters in the series; I don't see where the misogyny comes from. Am I insane for thinking this? Like I honestly do not see it. They are fleshed out enough I can see beyond the sex . I feel the same way, it's always been a non-issue for me in the books. I don't expect there to be equality among the sexes in every fictional civilization. Looking forward to seeing the first chapter of The Unholy Consult on that new forum, haven't registered there yet but I expect that I'll get around to it later tonight.
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May 28, 2012 19:57
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The Sharmat posted:I can't find Kellhus to be a mary-sue simply because I'm horrified him and want him to die screaming. Yeah I dont really get people who say he is a mary-sue character, and in fact people who say things like that worry me, since the implication is that they see Kellhus the murderous sociopath as a protagonist.
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May 28, 2012 21:47
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feraltennisprodigy posted:I feel the same way, it's always been a non-issue for me in the books. I don't expect there to be equality among the sexes in every fictional civilization. Here's a couple livejournal posts that make interesting reading: http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1737650.html http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1755323.html especially once Bakker shows up and proves unable to actually argue that his books aren't mysogynistic. (or argue much of anything else; he doesn't seem willing or able to actually engage with Mamatas's points, which might partially explain his failure to get a phd) ETA: in fairness, I did some more googling, and Bakker's apparently a failed continental philospher. fritz fucked around with this message at 01:48 on May 29, 2012 |
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May 29, 2012 01:36
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edit: ahh, gently caress it. I don't want to open up a can of worms.
Edged Hymn fucked around with this message at 03:04 on May 29, 2012 |
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May 29, 2012 02:58
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feraltennisprodigy posted:I feel the same way, it's always been a non-issue for me in the books. I don't expect there to be equality among the sexes in every fictional civilization. This is not and never has been the issue, at all, in the slightest.
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May 29, 2012 04:00
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fritz posted:Here's a couple livejournal posts that make interesting reading: Stupid reading, you mean. I'm surprised that Mamatas is even considered worth of discussion. quote:in the interview you state that the work can be read as misogynistic, but only due to an inescapable undetectable a priori error in anyone who thinks such a thing. Such a defense is so ridiculous that it must be wrong. Thus, that your work is misogynistic is at least a potentially meritorious conclusion. Looks like a solid argument to you? That's kid-level kind of rhetoric.
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May 29, 2012 04:18
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Bakker has said again and again that he thinks he's probably screwing something up for real and that his work likely is genuinely misogynistic. He just...wants people not to talk about it, I guess? I don't think it's a hugely productive discussion to have here.
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May 29, 2012 04:20
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General Battuta posted:Bakker has said again and again that he thinks he's probably screwing something up for real and that his work likely is genuinely misogynistic. He just...wants people not to talk about it, I guess? "Bakker has said" Most of these debates originate from false claims like this one. Imho this is trolling of the purest kind. When you go like that be ready to quote exactly what is being said, or stop attributing false arguments to people.
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May 29, 2012 04:30
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Ironically it's the kind of psychology Bakker has built his work on which makes it pretty clear why this discussion isn't going to go anywhere (in no small part because you think the topic of mid-list fantasy is actually worth having strong feelings about). But sure, have some quotes:quote:How many more bullets do I need to bite? I’ve acknowledged many problems, many worries, many times in many different venues over the years. This is one reason why I need to set up a FAQ page, I guess. Mea culpa, mea culpa (he's specifically talking about misogyny here w/r/t 'many problems, many worries, many times' quote:I always assume this reader is male. As a male, I know the ways of the male gaze. So the idea – always – is to engage them in conflicting ways, to draw them in with prurience, then saddle them with something difficult. The point is to render the kinds of scenes you find throughout much of the genre in ways that make them difficult to digest, that point to the conflicts and complexities. For me, the subtexts are so obvious that it often makes me wince. I have a very grim, very pessimistic view of male sexuality. In NP, for instance, one of the ‘future facts’ referenced is the discovery of a ‘rape module’ in male brains. It seems to be the case, for instance, that ‘male sexual vigilance’ is keyed to unconscious estimations of female vulnerability, that some men, at least, seem to track women according to automatic estimates of their ‘rapability.’ As dismaying as this possibility is, it seems to make a whole helluva lot of evolutionary sense, and to fit with observations of sexual violence that have transformed our understanding of chimps and dolphins, for instance. The point, at every turn, is to poke the reader and say, some part of this is you, some part of you likes this, irrespective of what you shout. I think this passage is a great litmus test: if you don't see what's glaringly wrong with it you really aren't going to get far in this kind of discussion. Bonus points for the hilarity of this man freaking out about pornography and people having kinky sex. GRRM conveys his obsession with rape through food. Bakker seems to do it through the lens of philosophy.
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May 29, 2012 04:45
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General Battuta posted:you think the topic of mid-list fantasy is actually worth having strong feelings about Yes, because it goes without saying that fantasy is a sub-product of Literature. High Literature actually worth of strong feelings. You make a good starting point the assumption of prejudice. quote:I think this passage is a great litmus test: if you don't see what's glaringly wrong with it you really aren't going to get far in this kind of discussion. Indeed. This shows me (may be true or not, but that's what on display here) you got no respect for who you talk about and setting yourself on a superior level. Obviously, by never having met GRRM, you know him better than he knows himself. What about humility? Is it in your vocabulary? Aren't you able to conceive the notion of doubt when you make strong claims about your own guesses on someone else you don't even know? Not sure what you want to prove by quoting Bakker. He certainly isn't saying "his work likely is genuinely misogynistic" like you made him say in your imaginary quote. He's stating the opposite. It's like he writes a violent scene, knowing the kind of hooks and responses violence creates. And by reading that scene you say that the writer writes violence because he enjoys and endorses it for real. You as a reader misunderstand denounce for endorsement, but on the premise "the reader is always right" you are then free to accuse anyone of anything. And this doesn't look to you a persecutory and deranged behavior to you? You are free going accusing random people of whatever passes through your mind (or that you think you're delusionally reading in a book as the real purpose of the writer), and then hide yourself under the untouchable status of "reader" when such person tries to defend himself from these accusations. A reader is free of accusing a writer he doesn't know of being misogynist, pedophile, rape-obsessed, violent. But the writer has just to bow his head and can't defend himself, because the "reader" is holy.
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May 29, 2012 05:15
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Abalieno posted:Stupid reading, you mean. Well, let's see. Mamatas posted:in the interview you state that the work can be read as misogynistic, but only due to an inescapable undetectable a priori error in anyone who thinks such a thing "The interview" apparently refers to a Q&A at Pat's Fantasy Hotlist, http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/06/new-r-scott-bakker-interview-part-1.html and http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2011/07/r-scott-bakker-interview-part-2.html The relevant passage is most likely: Bakker posted:Third, that those who decide my books are misogynistic cannot help but find evidence to confirm their view (just as people who decide my books are feminist (my intention) cannot help but find evidence confirming their view). Note the causality. Bakker suggests that the critics have come to a decision, and only then look for evidence in the text. (And he also claims that there are readers who have decided that the books are, as he claims, feminist; I have seen no evidence of such readers and would welcome examples). Bakker is very fond of the claim that people are trapped by their preconceived notions: quote:Belief polarization is real. Vitriolic, indiscriminate moral condemnation really does shut down people’s (already limited) capacity to reason as opposed to rationalize. It ramps up sensitivities, and things devolve from there. It triggers the psychological mechanisms that bring out the worst in us. And here's a claim of fact: quote:If you find yourself laughing at her aspersions, agreeing with her summary judgments, it only means that you’re human, another mammal ruthlessly designed to ruthlessly survive in a world far, far less forgiving than our own in which he's saying that if you agree with A Cracked Moon it's not because you've devoted thought into engaging with the text or the author's claims, it's because quote:Suddenly, you are no longer forced to engage dissenting views – you can indulge your assumptions and prejudices at will without any immediate consequence. No matter how extreme or destructive the view, there’s a social support system hanging out in the aether – an endless supply of those two great human drugs, affirmation and confirmation.
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May 29, 2012 05:19
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Let's try an experiment and COMPLETELY switch the context so that it is cleared of all pre-existing judgements: Let's say I'm a movie director who decides to make a documentary on the horrors of Hiroshima. I want to show the deaths and the consequences of the bomb, the radiations, the mutations that the people had to cope with along many years. In order to achieve this, I want to make it shocking. I want to show the real images of that horror, without any censorship and without employing a consolatory narrative filled with feel-good rhetoric. I want it to be a punch in the gut so that who sees it won't easily forget it. Like a memory scar, because some things shouldn't be allowed to be forgotten, especially if painful. So the movie is indeed very crude. It comes out and one day a random guy goes to see it. When he comes out he makes the following statement: "This documentary shows the obsession that the director must have had with Hiroshima for a very long time. You can even find implicit traces of it in all his previous works. It is evidently an endorsement for war and slaughter as everything is shown in a so inhuman way that no one sane could have sustained. By showing only Japanese victims it reveals an hidden racist vein, imparting systematically that violence on a specific race, without any mention of similar tragedies that happened in history. The images of the mutations are so crude that they could be described as pornographic and I can imagine the director having edited this while masturbating to them. The whole thing is like an ode to that slaughter, filled with nostalgia as if it was some great event that he'd like to reenact in some way. He is a very sick, deranged person that should seek medical attention, and a real danger to us all." Now obviously, being the director, I can't feel offended by this, nor I should defend my work and its actual purpose I tried to achieve with it. Instead I should say: "I'm dismayed to hear that guy's declarations. I can now see clearly what I've done. Evidently that spectator was able to reach a so deep insight that he opened a window into my subconscious and reveal what I truly wanted all along, but that I'm too scared to accept. Yes, I am a sick man and now detest myself. Help me, I need medical attention, or I may hurt someone for real if that part of my subconscious takes over me." - There's no Bakker, no ACM, no fantasy literature, nor anything else here. Purely what-if scenario. Now simply answer me: do you find anything wrong with that?
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May 29, 2012 05:44
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