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Occupation posted:I wonder why he went with the altogether lovely and unreliable alternative to KS instead of...you know...KS. Isn't the guy behind The Oatmeal Canadian? Or am I out of my mind? If he is, that's why. Same reason projects like EXP Bar went with IndieGoGo instead of KS.
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Jun 12, 2012 02:42
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octoroon posted:Yeah, but the fact that he can use an indie game crowdsourcing site as a vehicle for that kind of shows something may be wrong. You know these sites aren't just about gaming, right? They're crowdsourcing as a whole.
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Jun 12, 2012 02:42
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NmareBfly posted:Well, mouthbreathing 12 year olds continue to be upset about the Tropes v. Women kickstarter. Huh. She could even fund a second video series at this point. I think it'd be cool if she did a similar thing about the representation of men in video games to make it a more complete look at gender in this medium.
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Jun 12, 2012 02:47
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Fergus Mac Roich posted:Huh. She could even fund a second video series at this point. I think it'd be cool if she did a similar thing about the representation of men in video games to make it a more complete look at gender in this medium. I don't really think that's her field of interest and also I don't think the way men are portrayed contributes to a culture where men are routinely victimized, objectified, and marginalized. Unless this is a "where is my white entertainment television" situation.
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Jun 12, 2012 02:56
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Al! posted:I don't really think that's her field of interest and also I don't think the way men are portrayed contributes to a culture where men are routinely victimized, objectified, and marginalized. Unless this is a "where is my white entertainment television" situation. Are you asking if I'm a misogynist? No, I just think that there are enough stupid tropes about men(which certainly DO promote a certain picture of masculinity) in games to warrant a project. I didn't say anything about the relative value of it compared to her current project or anything like that.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:08
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The false expectations set by media are damaging to all sexes and that's a topic that is a very valid point of exploration. Just because women are definitely worse off than men in society does not somehow invalidate the damage that is done by the still slightly rigid views on what is "acceptably masculine."
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Jun 12, 2012 03:15
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NmareBfly posted:Well, mouthbreathing 12 year olds continue to be upset about the Tropes v. Women kickstarter. I'm sort of confused about whether you can really say that the representation of women in videogames falls into a "few" stereotypes, when she is going to go through a whopping ten of them.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:16
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The point is, she mainly focuses on women and their portrayals in media (her site is called Feminist Frequency for a reason). That could be an interesting project, but it's not her style.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:16
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It's all worth talking about and exploring. I took a course in college about the history of miscegenation and segregation, and one of the things we looked at was how mainstream portayals of black characters changed in the sixties and seventies. There's a letter on Letters of Note from John Steinbeck in the early forties complaining that a black character in a script he wrote had been changed to be more buffoonish for comic relief. That was a common trope for black characters in early film and television. Then, during the black power movement, there was a sea change to the new archetype, where black men were cast in aggressive and physically dominant roles, like the hardass detective or the jocular sergeant or whatever. You could say the modern portrayal of black characters is more dignified, but it's still a common stereotype. I think its a positive sign that games like the new Postal, Leisure Suit Larry and Duke Nukem bombed. There's a way to celebrate sexuality or even blacksploitation traditions without being gross. Something like House of the Dead Overkill only work because the developers and players both acknowledge it's silly.
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Jun 12, 2012 03:39
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NINbuntu 64 posted:You know these sites aren't just about gaming, right? They're crowdsourcing as a whole. Yeah, my bad. I didn't mean to type "game" after "indie," just force of habit. My point still stands, though -- seems a little bit like an abuse of the crowdsourcing spirit. But hey, if people want to throw their money at something, far be it from me to judge. Mr.48 posted:I'm sort of confused about whether you can really say that the representation of women in videogames falls into a "few" stereotypes, when she is going to go through a whopping ten of them. Isn't getting up in arms about misuse of the word "few" a bit pedantic? I think you can figure out the gist given the context, especially given that "whopping" might be contested as a descriptor of "ten." speng31b fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 04:56
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The Oatmeal as a Hyperbole and a Half ripoff? Is that some kind of joke? The Oatmeal is probably older, or at the very least basically contemporary, not to mention hilarious in entirely different ways than Hyperbole and a Half. Seriously, all of you have probably seen or even reposted a The Oatmeal cartoon at some point. Yeah, they were both started in 2009. And The Oatmeal has already raised $70,000 in like six hours.
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Jun 12, 2012 05:00
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octoroon posted:Isn't getting up in arms about misuse of the word "few" a bit pedantic? I think you can figure out the gist given the context, especially given that "whopping" might be contested as a descriptor of "ten." In her pitch she really emphasizes that there are only a few stereotypical representations of women in videogames. If you can name at least 10 then I would say that they are not really stereotypes, but simply archetypes. And given that male characters also typically fit into no more than a dozen archetypes in videogames I dont see why people are considering this such a huge issue. Edit: I personally think a more important question to ask is why more games feature male protagonists than female, rather than why female characters are sometimes portrayed in this or that way. Basically I have a problem with her particular thesis, not with the importance of examining the roles of female characters in games. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 06:19
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You're dumb as rocks.
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Jun 12, 2012 06:30
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Role Play McMurphy posted:You're dumb as rocks. I spent a really long time trying to come up with a bunch of longwinded explanations that go into the various reasons why his reasoning is flawed on several levels, but nothing really expressed what I wanted to say as well as this did right here.
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Jun 12, 2012 06:34
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Archetypes and stereotypes are basically the same thing. Except archetypes don't negatively affect real people.
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Jun 12, 2012 07:01
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Mr.48 posted:
Wow. I'm pretty sure she isn't worried at the ratio of men to women, but rather how the women are portrayed when included. Right or wrong that ratio is likely a marketing thing. I loved the No One Lives Forever series, but from what I've read online a third one never came about, in part at least, because no one wanted to play a female lead. That was a shame. Eliminating the “troupes” seems to be the most important and immediate concern for her project. Dragonrah fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 07:21
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Again, <3 Brian Mitsoda and the crew and I wish them all the best, but this poor Dead State Kickstarter is doing the whole two steps forward one step back thing. Check out their latest update about rewards. A bunch of cool physical stuff... plus a picture of one of the weapons from their stretch goal, all ready to go into the game  Someone needs to explain to them that "stretch goals" work best when you can at least plausibly claim that you need the extra money to implement them. Showing off a partially finished stretch goal when you're not even 3/4ths of the way to your normal goal is... inapposite at best.
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Jun 12, 2012 07:36
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Dragonrah posted:Wow. It's honestly a big self-fulfilling prophecy, really. The ratio of male:female characters in media in generally is hugely skewed toward more men than women because female characters tend to be poorly written and portrayed mainly as sex objects and passive characters, not dynamic and interesting characters who are fun and exciting to watch. So people go "I don't like this character" and marketing types assume it's because the character is female and not because it's a bad character, so you end up with less female characters in general, and the ones that do exist are all lovely sex kittens made with sex appeal first and characterization second. So people say "Gamers don't like female characters", but that's only because the female characters that are available are pretty much uniformly terrible. Nobody watches, say, Aliens and goes "Ugh, we're watching a GIRL?" because Ripley's a good character and a strong protagonist who accomplishes things and moves the plot forward in an engaging fashion instead of being a nymphomaniac with dynamic boob physics who keeps getting kidnapped and put into skimpy outfits.
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Jun 12, 2012 07:38
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I would just like to commend you all on how helpful and valuable this thread is for someone trying to find out more about KickStarter. This just about sums it all up in one page.
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Jun 12, 2012 08:21
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Holy hell, that FunnyJunk letter isn't asking for damages, it's extortion. They don't even bother establishing what the number $20,000 has to do with anything, they're just saying "you've got a pterodactyl in your page source so you intended to do harm, now pay up". I swear this is the most godawfully stupid thing I've read in years.
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Jun 12, 2012 09:28
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To elaborate on what is going on with Dead State, today's update adds two new tiers with physical rewards. A bullet USB keychain at $85 and a collector's edition box set at $250 that comes with a ton of stuff (DVD game copy/music CD/shirt/USB keychain/signed "Making Of" book/paper manual/prints of in-game material/signed thank-you letter/2 extra digital copies). I think Brian is a little too focused on the details, if the first stretch goal something along the lines of "Help us hire our artist full-time and he'll be able to create more assets for the game!" it might be a better pitch.
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Jun 12, 2012 10:01
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dvorak posted:I would just like to commend you all on how helpful and valuable this thread is for someone trying to find out more about KickStarter.  This thread and the Awful Kickstarters thread certainly have begun creeping closer together in content, which is funny.
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Jun 12, 2012 11:33
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Being informed about Kickstarters is all about knowing good from bad, after all.
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Jun 12, 2012 13:53
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NmareBfly posted:Well, mouthbreathing 12 year olds continue to be upset about the Tropes v. Women kickstarter. This ranks pretty high up on the list of things that make me embarrassed to be a gamer. It's like shining a light behind your fridge to discover a bunch of cockroaches, only instead of scattering they start lunging at you and crawling up your pants leg. I can't up my donation more than I already have, and I'm not sure how much good it would do anyway, but drat if I don't want to donate more anyway just because of this bullshit. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that, either. These trolls are apparently completely unfamiliar with the Streisand effect.
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Jun 12, 2012 14:22
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Mr.48 posted:In her pitch she really emphasizes that there are only a few stereotypical representations of women in videogames. If you can name at least 10 then I would say that they are not really stereotypes, but simply archetypes. And given that male characters also typically fit into no more than a dozen archetypes in videogames I dont see why people are considering this such a huge issue. First of all, the argument is really about quality, not quantity. Breaking things down into smaller categories (or "tropes") is just a good way to analyze where things go wrong. If you are really extremely preoccupied with getting at the source of the word "few," it doesn't take great leaps and bounds to figure it out. Half of the tropes she talks about could be more broadly categorized out under the umbrella of "vapid sex object." Also, there are tons of niches male characters are allowed to fill that female characters are implicitly barred from. Try to think of a female protagonist who is not a child and who is not sexy -- specifically one who has an atypical body type or is "ugly" or "scarred." Just something to consider. Also, her central thesis here is not preoccupied with the ratio of female:male characters in games. If you actually took the time to watch the video and read the KickStarter, and that was honestly your takeaway and not just a strawman you built to make dismissive posts about it in this thread, then I'm not sure what to say. Ratio is just a symptom of a larger problem. Stacking mountains of female characters into games as a ratio adjustment exercise without fixing the problems that make those characters so inevitably broken isn't a solution to anything. And yeah, plenty of male characters in video games suck, too -- but as a whole, they don't suck nearly as much as female characters do, and there's nothing wrong with using a KickStarter to point it out. speng31b fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 15:46
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seorin posted:This ranks pretty high up on the list of things that make me embarrassed to be a gamer. It's like shining a light behind your fridge to discover a bunch of cockroaches, only instead of scattering they start lunging at you and crawling up your pants leg. I can't up my donation more than I already have, and I'm not sure how much good it would do anyway, but drat if I don't want to donate more anyway just because of this bullshit. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that, either. These trolls are apparently completely unfamiliar with the Streisand effect. Being embarrassed that other people who share a similar hobby are dicks is just encouraging people to see that hobby as the source of said dickishness.
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Jun 12, 2012 16:20
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octoroon posted:First of all, the argument is really about quality, not quantity. Breaking things down into smaller categories (or "tropes") is just a good way to analyze where things go wrong. If you are really extremely preoccupied with getting at the source of the word "few," it doesn't take great leaps and bounds to figure it out. Half of the tropes she talks about could be more broadly categorized out under the umbrella of "vapid sex object." Also, there are tons of niches male characters are allowed to fill that female characters are implicitly barred from. Try to think of a female protagonist who is not a child and who is not sexy -- specifically one who has an atypical body type or is "ugly" or "scarred." Just something to consider. Perfect example (sorry for Kotaku copy paste), Kotaku posted:But in the upcoming Tomb Raider reboot, things will be different. She hasn't become that woman yet. And executive producer Ron Rosenberg says you'll want to keep her safe. And this is a game that is coming out this year. A "more gritty, real" take on Lara Croft wasn't to take her character and go "ok, so what can we do to give her stronger characterization than has boobs, shoots guns" they go and turn her from one stereotype into another.
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Jun 12, 2012 16:34
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The Tomb Raider thing also reminds me a lot of Metroid: Other M. One of the great things about the Metroid series is that Samus was a coin flip character. Could've been male or female. A tough no-nonsense character, but one that wasn't bogged down in trying to rescue the princess or some maternal instincts or some other gender-related argument. But the coin, for one of the few times in video game history, landed on female. And then they went and made Other M, where Samus became a huge emo wuss who was a walking gender stereotype.
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Jun 12, 2012 16:40
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I like this project because, as someone who is a writer and working on a project with a female lead, it'll help me to avoid creating some of the same poo poo that plagues games and other works, even if it was unintentional.  I'd give money but I have none and won't have any for like another week.  Maybe she'll do like some of the other KS projects and open up future donations.
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Jun 12, 2012 16:40
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Tsurupettan posted:I like this project because, as someone who is a writer and working on a project with a female lead, it'll help me to avoid creating some of the same poo poo that plagues games and other works, even if it was unintentional.
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Jun 12, 2012 17:32
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 That is some terrible standing point for the developer of the new Tomb Raider game to take.I found that game interesting because seeing Lara Croft go from an average woman into the super-icon she has become as a strong female protagonist sounds like a really interesting route and having been put through severe situations like a sinking boat, a collapsing tomb, tribal people trying to kill her and trying to survive on a deserted island sounds like things she'd have to go through to get there, so I am willing to overlook the aspect people describe as "torture porn", because I feel that being vulnerable is a more honest character portrayal of a character still not a super-woman. Rape or threat of rape is not cool. We're just not there.
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Jun 12, 2012 18:42
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Al! posted:Tomb Raider reboot stuff speng31b fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 19:11
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octoroon posted:Wow, I was kind of suspicious of this when I first heard about it, but hearing the guy actually talk about it in those terms makes it even worse. The concept just immediately evokes that creeping sort of itch that the whole premise is just somehow off. Maybe people can't "project themselves into the character" because it's a BAD CHARACTER. "You just want to protect her?" So it's like a super-creepy, rape-infested, voyeuristic version of Ico? I really hope they take care and consult with people who are actually qualified to define the material that they've chosen, but I know they probably won't. It wasn't just people manufacturing outrage because they could smell a rat with that game from day one, just like it usually isn't when it comes to issues of race, gender, and sexuality. Despite how much people would love to stuff their fingers into their ears and blame the internet for making them question their own biases.
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Jun 12, 2012 19:30
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Yeah, well, until they get some designers who aren't giant manchildren they should probably stick to using rape as an invisible plot point explaining what happened to Lead Protagonist DarkCloak the Mutilator's family to make him into the sociopath you play as.
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Jun 12, 2012 19:45
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quote:"They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'" You heard it here, folks. Old Lara Croft was there so you could stare at her rear end while she clambered around. New Lara Croft exists to be white knighted.
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Jun 12, 2012 19:57
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Utritum posted:And SpaceVenture just made a sudden big jump forward, and has now landed on $503k. All we really need to do is drag Roberta Williams out of retirement and get her to design us the mother of all Kings Quest games. That poo poo would own (Especially since the series ended on such an awkward note with the lovely 3d one) , 2D point and click , all story and all awesome. It'd be the best. e: Jesus christ wtf is going on with the bullshit feminsit frequency is copping. Ok thats it, she's getting my money, her case is proven beyond reasonable doubt simply by the sexist loving pig backlash. duck monster fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jun 12, 2012 |
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Jun 12, 2012 20:02
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duck monster posted:All we really need to do is drag Roberta Williams out of retirement and get her to design us the mother of all Kings Quest games. That poo poo would own (Especially since the series ended on such an awkward note with the lovely 3d one) , 2D point and click , all story and all awesome. It'd be the best. Roberta Williams leaving the adventure game genre forever was the best thing to ever happen.
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Jun 12, 2012 20:05
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duck monster posted:All we really need to do is drag Roberta Williams out of retirement and get her to design us the mother of all Kings Quest games. That poo poo would own (Especially since the series ended on such an awkward note with the lovely 3d one) , 2D point and click , all story and all awesome. It'd be the best. Roberta Williams wouldn't dare make a game for "average people" now. She'd probably see it as slumming. (The quote for context)
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Jun 12, 2012 20:07
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NINbuntu 64 posted:Roberta Williams leaving the adventure game genre forever was the best thing to ever happen. What are you talking about? Kings quest was awesome.
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Jun 12, 2012 20:21
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No, no it wasn't. At all. Anyways she's been shown to be an elitist rich douche after the fact sooooooooooooooooo
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