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tweekinator posted:Yoru Sulfur also acted the part of Marovia, but that doesn't mean he was Marovia all along. Yeah, at first I thought Yoru played the Tanner from day 1, then I realized that he probably had better poo poo to do for a year or two than stir up rebellion.
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Jun 13, 2012 21:32
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tweekinator posted:Basically, I'm saying Bayaz's Union is worse than the exact same Union without him, because there is no hope for change while he controls it. If a foreign power threatens to invade, Bayaz is there to manipulate and coerce his way into a Union victory. If plague or natural calamity threatens the safety of the Union, Bayaz is gonna be there whipping up some wizardry to keep his pawns in a usable condition. Sure he's only motivated by self interest, but it it's in his interest to keep things running smoothly and self interest is the most reliable motivator. In this world, the Union is a pretty good place to live for the average individual.
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Jun 13, 2012 22:24
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Above Our Own posted:If a foreign power threatens to invade, Bayaz is there to manipulate and coerce his way into a Union victory. If plague or natural calamity threatens the safety of the Union, Bayaz is gonna be there whipping up some wizardry to keep his pawns in a usable condition. Sure he's only motivated by self interest, but it it's in his interest to keep things running smoothly and self interest is the most reliable motivator. Except he's done none of that. The only thing he did in the Gurkish invasion of Adua was finish his experiments with the Seed, and that was solely due to the fact that he wanted to prove he could. The Eaters were secondary and a little gently caress you to Khalul in the process. Even then, he arguably caused more damage than killing them prevented. Remember he leveled a sizable chunk of the city for purely vain purposes. Likewise, in The Heroes he only stepped in to strongarm Calder after the battle had already occurred and he saw an opportunity to gain the upper hand for himself. Ishri had Black Dow's ear, when he died Bayaz moved as quickly as he could to make sure he had Calder's. There was no investment in the Union or its well being there, just his own personal gains. His cannons were of absolutely no consequence for anything there. As for protecting them from plagues or natural disasters, the only "plague" ever shown is there because of Bayaz and his wizarding. The Union armies suffer the same hardships with weather, sickness, and poor conditions as any other army, the citizens most likely do as well. There is no gently caress to be given from Bayaz. A nation locked in a perpetual war with another because the two godlings controlling them don't like each other is not a good place to live for the average person, especially when Bayaz realized that the Open Council had too much power and moved to quash it at the end of the trilogy. The entire nation exists solely to provide bodies to throw into the meat grinder against Khalul, it's hard to ignore that just because Bayaz keeps a semblance of order that's more like extreme stagnation and stratification.
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Jun 14, 2012 01:09
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On the other hand, without Bayaz there would be no Union. Are the people better off as his personal serfs or as cavemen? Of course those cavemen would've never known better if Bayaz didn't waltz some Union up.
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Jun 14, 2012 07:34
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We tend to remember conquerors like Khan, Alexander, and Ceasar as civilization builders who moved societies forward as a result of their conquests but you can bet your butt that these guys had no qualms about shoving hundreds of thousands of people into wars just for more land and power. It's really only from a modern viewpoint that Bayaz looks so awful.
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Jun 14, 2012 08:27
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No it isn't. It's made clear through others reaction to him in the novels themselves that an immortal rear end in a top hat running roughshod over them is the last thing they want. Bayaz' refusal to go back to the mud due to his overwhelming hubris is the last thing any of the characters expect or know how to deal with. He is literally a pointy hat stamping on their faces forever. Your earlier statement about people preferring dictators to chaos is laughably incorrect. Why do you think the dictators keep getting overthrown and nations keep descending into chaos? It isn't because chaos is the natural order of things, it's because the rulers lose the mandate of heaven or whatever other metaphor people use to describe exactly how much poo poo they will put up with before they'll murder the gently caress out of every rear end in a top hat in charge. Read an actual book on the rise and fall of nations, please. The only thing that makes living in a dictatorship bearable is the sure and certain knowledge that even the God-King is mortal. That's why Bayaz doesn't rule openly, that's why he sets up systems of oppression such as the banks, and that's why the ultimate ending of the series will be his victory over the Gurkish followed by his defeat at the hands of peasants. He's made himself obvious too to many people to be the power in the shadows for much longer. Peztopiary fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Jun 14, 2012 |
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Jun 14, 2012 09:06
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Above Our Own posted:We tend to remember conquerors like Khan, Alexander, and Ceasar as civilization builders who moved societies forward as a result of their conquests but you can bet your butt that these guys had no qualms about shoving hundreds of thousands of people into wars just for more land and power. So yeah, Genghis, Alexander, Caesar and Napoleon sure moved societies forward, but I'm not convinced at all that the world wouldn't have been better without them. Peztopiary posted:That's why Bayaz doesn't rule openly, that's why he sets up systems of oppression such as the banks, and that's why the ultimate ending of the series will be his victory over the Gurkish followed by his defeat at the hands of peasants. He's made himself obvious too to many people to be the power in the shadows for much longer. Besides, if stuff really gets too hot to handle Bayaz can simply withdraw into that fortress we meet him in The Blade Itself. Remember how Bethod tried to find him and couldn't until Bayaz let him? It's nice to have a hideout nobody can locate unless you want them to.
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Jun 14, 2012 09:54
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Rurik posted:On the other hand, without Bayaz there would be no Union. Are the people better off as his personal serfs or as cavemen? Cavemen. Or there's an alternative, a civilization that grew up without immortal mages creating it as their tool to fight another immortal mage: Styira. Aside from the recent bloodshed and chaos in BSC, it was presented as fairly stable, and it didn't take an undying dictator to make it so. As a plus, it's not locked into any superwars with empires or constant fighting with various tribes to it's north.
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Jun 14, 2012 13:33
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Tell you one thing Joe Abercrombie needs to work on:  His autograph. I mean really. Get some fancy, swooping lines in there.
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Jun 14, 2012 16:04
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Above Our Own posted:Well, we disagree here. Typically powerful leaders add stability, even if living conditions are still harsh. Many ancient cultures preferred tyranny to the chaos and uncertainty of internal strife. Also there is definitely room for change. Bayaz will make sure that the Union gets equipped with any new technological developments that will give his nation an edge in war or wealth. Bayaz doesn't want an UNION victory, he wants an BAYAZ victory. It's like saying that a football player wants the ball to win. He was more then willing to gently caress over the capital and thousands of people to win one fight with Khalul, if he could end the war by wiping out all life in the country he would do it. The Union is just a tool. Bayaz wouldn't have anything to do with it if he didn't need it to win over Khalul. We've seen how annoyed he is of humanity and how he considers Union just to be a poor disgusting shadow of the Old Empire. Above Our Own posted:It's really only from a modern viewpoint that Bayaz looks so awful. Everybody in the books who learns what he really is hates him. Except for Yoru Sulfur I guess but he's in a way even worse then Bayaz.
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Jun 14, 2012 20:48
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Sulfur's (Solfur's?) worse? I thought he was just a cannibal.
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Jun 15, 2012 03:53
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Yeah he's just a cannibal who does Bayaz' bidding. Shenkt is also a cannibal who does not do Bayaz' bidding anymore. Speaking of which, if he has Keanu Reaves powers, why the hell didn't Shenkt just kill Orso the instant they were alone? There was literally like nothing that could stop the guy from killing every single person after Murcatto at that point in the book.
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Jun 15, 2012 04:24
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Shenkt wouldn't have needed to wait until they were alone, he could walk in and kill him in front of his bodyguards any time he wanted. He wanted Monza to do it so she would take his place. Granted, it's kind of an iffy way to control the succession and I don't think it's exactly well written from a plot perspective but oh well.
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Jun 15, 2012 04:29
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I'm curious to see if Styria can enforce its neutrality in the Union/South shitfest. With peace in the north, the Union will probably go against Monza and the province(s) she controls. And another thing, is Bayaz portrayed as damage resistant or something? Because nobody is looking to assassinate the fucker and it's p strange.
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Jun 15, 2012 19:00
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I didn't realize this the first time I read The Heroes, but Craw mentions using an eye glass that he got off a frozen Union officer a couple of years back. That frozen soldier is Ladisla!
Beastie fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jun 15, 2012 |
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Jun 15, 2012 20:02
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In case anyone cares, you can preorder the UK edition of Red Country from Amazon. It costs a fair bit more, but you'll get it a month early and don't have the terrible American cover.
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Jun 15, 2012 20:03
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Thanks for the reminder. How bad does the US cover suck this time around?
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Jun 15, 2012 23:19
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If it's as hilariously bad as the Best Served Cold cover with a blood-stained Murcatto wielding a broadsword, I might just get the US version  I love collecting bad fantasy novel covers.
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Jun 16, 2012 00:52
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Kellanved posted:I'm curious to see if Styria can enforce its neutrality in the Union/South shitfest. With peace in the north, the Union will probably go against Monza and the province(s) she controls. I don't think he is that damage resistant, Quai talks about how easy it would be to just slit his throat when he was unconscious. Yoru also has to save hime from a chunk of shrapnel in The Heroes. [Spoilers] although the Eaters seem to be incredibly tough, and we know Bayaz has no problem indulging in cannibalism. The Eaters seem to have to constantly be feeding to maintain their powers though, and we only see Bayaz eating someone once.
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Jun 16, 2012 01:54
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Your Gay Uncle posted:[Spoilers] although the Eaters seem to be incredibly tough, and we know Bayaz has no problem indulging in cannibalism. The Eaters seem to have to constantly be feeding to maintain their powers though, and we only see Bayaz eating someone once. Wait, when does this happen? I could have sworn Bayaz specifically avoided doing anything like that because it helped him feel superior to everyone that did.
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Jun 16, 2012 02:59
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Bussamove posted:Wait, when does this happen? I could have sworn Bayaz specifically avoided doing anything like that because it helped him feel superior to everyone that did. At the end of the Siege of Adua he admits to an Eater that he has broken all the laws Juvens set forth, and I think he also tells Ferro at some after she goes demon crazy that he has broken the second law a time or two. Shenkt, one of his disciples, is an Eater, Yoru Sulfur, his current apprentice, has many Eater-esque qualities, and in Bayaz's speech to Calder at the end of The Heroes it is implied he is eating a human steak. He aslo eats part of Black Dow for dessert, if I remember correctly. It fits with Bayaz being an arrogant prick who views himself above the law, and that only other Eaters are truly breaking the Second Law.
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Jun 16, 2012 03:20
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Contra Calculus posted:If it's as hilariously bad as the Best Served Cold cover with a blood-stained Murcatto wielding a broadsword, I might just get the US version  I like to read stuff in the park and otherwise out in public but I'd be too embarrassed of that to carry it outside the house. Chalk one up for the Brit version!
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Jun 16, 2012 03:55
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I like to read stuff in the park and otherwise out in public but I'd be too embarrassed of that to carry it outside the house. I'll never understand people that leave the dust jackets on their hardcovers while reading  .But really, while that cover is definitely bad, it's not embarrassingly bad. I don't need to post the cover to Saturn's Children, do I?
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Jun 16, 2012 04:28
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Ornamented Death posted:I don't need to post the cover to Saturn's Children, do I?   Why did I have to google that ? 
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Jun 16, 2012 04:45
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Your Gay Uncle posted:At the end of the Siege of Adua he admits to an Eater that he has broken all the laws Juvens set forth, and I think he also tells Ferro at some after she goes demon crazy that he has broken the second law a time or two. Shenkt, one of his disciples, is an Eater, Yoru Sulfur, his current apprentice, has many Eater-esque qualities, and in Bayaz's speech to Calder at the end of The Heroes it is implied he is eating a human steak. He aslo eats part of Black Dow for dessert, if I remember correctly. I re-read The Heroes recently and both times I've read it, that scene at the end of the book didn't give me a cannibalism vibe at all (I was specifically looking out for it the second time, too). It seemed calculated to unsettle Calder, but that's all. I think Bayaz has no problem in putting eaters to use for his own ends, but I don't think he actually does it himself.
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Jun 16, 2012 11:57
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I don't know poo poo about swordplay but I always thought you only used one hand for cutlasses or sabers.
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Jun 16, 2012 17:38
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John Charity Spring posted:I re-read The Heroes recently and both times I've read it, that scene at the end of the book didn't give me a cannibalism vibe at all (I was specifically looking out for it the second time, too). It seemed calculated to unsettle Calder, but that's all. I think Bayaz has no problem in putting eaters to use for his own ends, but I don't think he actually does it himself. That's the impression I got as well. He's perfectly content to use Eaters, but since he doesn't actually practice it him self that still makes him better than the likes of Khalul. It's another layer of the fantastic hypocrisy and ego that is Bayaz.
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Jun 16, 2012 19:57
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Ornamented Death posted:In case anyone cares, you can preorder the UK edition of Red Country from Amazon. It costs a fair bit more, but you'll get it a month early and don't have the terrible American cover. Actually you should go to bookdepository.co.uk where you can get the UK cover, get it early, cheap and with free global delivery. Edit: I realize I sound like a spambot advertiser, but bookdepository is seriously awesome.
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Jun 17, 2012 05:53
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Contra Calculus posted:I don't know poo poo about swordplay but I always thought you only used one hand for cutlasses or sabers. Maybe he's chopping down a tree.
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Jun 19, 2012 07:47
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Normal Adult Human posted:Maybe he's chopping down a legion of dead men walking. More accurate for the Bloody-Nine.
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Jun 19, 2012 09:37
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Your Gay Uncle posted:....and in Bayaz's speech to Calder at the end of The Heroes it is implied he is eating a human steak. He aslo eats part of Black Dow for dessert, if I remember correctly. That's not entirely true. At the end of The Heroes Deep and Shallow lead Calder to a meeting with Bayaz and Sulfur near a mass grave that has Dow in it. As they are leaving, Calder tells Sulfur to leave the meat "in case I am hungry later." He then jokingly asks for dessert, to which Sulfur replies as he leaves "Black Dow has it"
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Jun 19, 2012 23:45
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Say one thing for Joe Abercrombie? I'll say this, he's loving great at creating stories where all the interesting parts flow naturally out of the motives and flaws of the characters. Some rear end in a top hat like Sanderson doesn't get it. The lesser author sticks in characters that essentially serve as talking plot-advancers. They're there to illustrate the story happening around them but you could swap 'em around or take 'em out altogether and you wouldn't lose much. Abercrombie characters provide the story and it's compelling to read. Red Country? I'm stoked. I want to see what happens when you put this self-delusional murderous psychopath who just wants to be normal and kind and amiable in situations where his own conflicted motives clash head on into each other and drive the narrative forward.
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Jun 20, 2012 05:07
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He's also really good at plotting. The sheer number of plot twists that he set up in books 1 and 2 of TFL that paid off (in a fair-to-the-reader-way!) in book 3 was really, really impressive - particularly for a first-time author.
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Jun 20, 2012 05:33
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FMguru posted:He's also really good at plotting. The sheer number of plot twists that he set up in books 1 and 2 of TFL that paid off (in a fair-to-the-reader-way!) in book 3 was really, really impressive - particularly for a first-time author. Archlector Sult was really summoning demons the whole time!? Wow that's completely inconsistent with how his character was presented and comes off as cliched. It also did absolutely nothing for the narrative. Malacus Quai was really Tolemei?? Well, at least there's some lead in but I think the character would have been more interesting without this, as some other posters have noted. It also did very little for the narrative and begs a lot of other questions. His best "plot twists" are when you finally get to see the full extent of his characters. Like Bayaz being an amoral oppressive master manipulator or Logen being in fact the antisocial murderer he's constantly been insisting that he isn't.
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Jun 21, 2012 21:43
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I maintain that the third book was by far the weakest of the trilogy because he'd set himself far too much work to do and it came off as flabby, muddled and underwhelming in sections. Plus the climax was just over half way through the book and everything thereafter was going in a really strange direction, I realise that was the point, but still. I mean, it's still a five star book, and still better than BSC but... could have been better.
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Jun 21, 2012 22:06
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Above Our Own posted:I think he's gotten a lot better at this in particular in BSC and Heroes. I think some of the plot twists in the trilogy are poorly developed and come off as confusing and lame. Yes. The Heroes is brilliantly plotted - you end up sort of rooting for everyone. Apart from rear end in a top hat Gandalf, ofc.
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Jun 21, 2012 22:42
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I'd say that he's absolutely incredible when it comes to characterization and plotting. However, his actual overall story? Looking back, after every single book it feels like nothing has been accomplished. Blade Itself? Everyone gathers up, the end. Before They Are Hanged? Rofl the seed is in another place. You travelled all that way for literally no reason. Last Argument of Kings? Everything is back to normal and lovely. Also, magic people see entire nations as cattle. Best Served Cold? Huge misunderstanding turned into a slaughterfest. Heroes? Pointless war led to nowhere. Bethod jr. controls the North so we've literally gone full circle. Don't get me wrong, lots of cool poo poo happens in these books and it is extremely well-written. It's just that it feels like no one ever changes anything and I guess that's the point Abercrombie is trying to make about the real world. Well, here's to hoping Red Country has Logen accomplishes something good for the world or whatever. (Even though that definitely won't happen.) Have it all pre-ordered and everything because I love Abercrombie's writing and characterization.
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Jun 21, 2012 23:59
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Above Our Own posted:Logen being in fact the antisocial murderer he's constantly been insisting that he isn't. Logen isn't antisocial
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Jun 22, 2012 01:14
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Mr.48 posted:Logen isn't antisocial
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Jun 22, 2012 01:30
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Mr.48 posted:Logen isn't antisocial
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Jun 22, 2012 11:29
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