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TychoCelchuuu posted:Does Valve just walk around publishing indie games? Is Valve even a publisher? I don't think Valve really publishes anything, unless you count Half-Life mods where they hire the entire team and then turn the game into a Valve game. Valve's a developer. Exactly that. Valve's a developer with a (wildly successful) digital download storefront. They give you a place to sell your game once it's done, but that's it. A publisher is someone that gives a developer the money to get their game made, along with usually handling all the marketing of the game. In return they ask for things like a massive chunk of the profits (up to all of the profits in some cases), or ownership of the IP, or the ability to meddle endlessly with your game, or the ability to force you to release it way before you're ready, or your firstborn child. Publishers generally suck. There's a reason game devs get teary-eyed over successful Kickstarters.
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Jul 11, 2012 06:56
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Re: Defense Grid and publishers (or why the lack thereof), maybe it's because publisher relationships are usually very one-sided, especially with small development studios who don't have clout to negotiate a better deal or hard numbers in advance of launch to support the idea that this will definitely be a moneymaker? A publisher would give them a loan, I'm giving them a donation. In return I just want them to use it effectively to make the game, and that's where my "boundaries" end. There are other things that they could do with it, too, like "hey, Publisher X, look at all the demand we have for this product - care to revisit our conversation regarding marketability and what kind of terms we could get?" or just keep it as it is, not a huge budget game but one made with clear and sensible goals, without needing the kind of distribution channels or development costs that come with major releases. When I give them my money on it, I'm saying "I trust you guys, here's proof, do what's best for the project once you get it!" because I want it to happen. That's what I like about Kickstarter and contributing directly to the developers to make the game. I like cutting out the previously necessary middleman (making a publishing relationship optional is fine by me, but making it so that the studio gets jack and poo poo unless some arbitrary metascore is reached is dumb, so the more they can get on their terms, the better, should they choose to go that route). Kickstarter for me, especially when it comes to luxury poo poo like videogames, is all about that sense of actually supporting the people who are offering to do something you really, genuinely want to have happen, being part of that initial capital gathering process that is required to proceed with development, but with no strings attached on my end. It's not really a business relationship, it's an expression of support. This one has good reward tiers (though the videocards on offer are pretty crap, honestly, especially for the money - not awful, but you can get a 6870 for like a hundred bucks these days), the project is something that is way interesting to me, so if we can get it started up or even fully funded and made, I'll have been glad to have had the opportunity to be part of the process. I love Defense Grid and the games it inspired, seeing what I think of as the real masters revisit the game with whatever they can afford to produce is exciting!
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Jul 11, 2012 06:56
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YOURFRIEND posted:You would just think that whomever published it the first time wouldn't have a hard time greenlighting the sequel to a popular IP.
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Jul 11, 2012 07:22
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For Defense Grid, I don't think the issue is "why don't they just get a publisher???", I personally don't really understand how they can't self fund a sequel. They self published the first Defense Grid and it was incredibly successful. Then they won a fairly alluring contract with valve to make CS:GO. I would have thought that at this point funding a million dollar project by themselves wouldn't be a huge problem, but maybe I'm really under-estimating how much money they made on DG. It's not like they had a publisher to work around with that game, so I dunno.
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Jul 11, 2012 07:25
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FreakyZoid posted:Can you please stop posting about an industry you don't seem to understand or have any experience of at all? No. I imagine the vast majority of people posting in the Games forums haven't worked in the games industry and I personally have no desire to. I'm posting from a layman's perspective and learning along the way. That is how discussion works optimally. The person who mentioned earlier that a publisher does more than just package and ship a game taught me more than your worthless indignant post. I hadn't considered that publishers also fund the making of games when I made my original post, and now I realize that Valve would have to be more involved than just slapping Defense Grid 2 up on their storefront to be considered as publishing it.
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Jul 11, 2012 07:46
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YOURFRIEND posted:No. I imagine the vast majority of people posting in the Games forums haven't worked in the games industry and I personally have no desire to. I'm posting from a layman's perspective and learning along the way. That is how discussion works optimally. For all your life you just thought video game publishers were the dudes who made the boxes for games?
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Jul 11, 2012 07:50
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Don't bag on him too much, at least he owned up to it. I've had lots of Kickstarters discussions with people that span in circles for so long that it formed a moat. There's a large misconception that KS should only be for people who really need it. The reality is, if people's entire livelihoods depends on a Kickstarters being funded, then they probably don't have very good business sense, or they're just not ready. I personally would not want to fund a project to a person that isnt already reputable. I realize I don't speak for everyone, and plenty of fresh faces get their dreams funded on Kickstarter, but I still think trust plays a pretty big role. I'm a lot more comfortable pledging to a Doublefine Kickstarter, because I know they're good for it and aren't going to flake. A complete unknown guy who has never been published and has no track record, and they ask for $100,000.... I would feel a little sick to my stomach if I handed any significant amount of money to him. That's a total hypothetical but I've seen projects like that. And they always make me grimace. If the Defense Grid guys want to fund a game without publishers, then power to them. I think Kickstarter was made with people like them in mind. It's not for start-ups or handouts. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 07:57
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Verdugo posted:Cydereal, for what it's worth, This is the stupidest thing I've read whole week, bravo. What if he starts to cover every game that comes out, you won't play anything until the rest of your life?
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Jul 11, 2012 13:01
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lordfrikk posted:This is the stupidest thing I've read whole week, bravo. What if he starts to cover every game that comes out, you won't play anything until the rest of your life? I think people are missing - intentionally or not, I don't know - the difference between stuff he reviews (which, as you say, is a lot of stuff) and stuff he is actively asked to promote and rally support for (which, among other things, includes Retrovirus). That said, I do not harbor any delusions about this position not being petty - I just wish TB had no relevance whatsoever. Edit: I do see that Verdugo uses the term "covers", but I think that was poor word choice. I could be wrong though! 
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Jul 11, 2012 13:08
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I donated to DG2, and got my keys for DG and the DLC, but I'm not entirely certain that I couldn't just un-donate now and keep my free Defense Grid. I'm not going to, but it seems like it might be an easy way for assholes to steal a good game.
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Jul 11, 2012 13:33
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graventy posted:I'm not entirely certain that I couldn't just un-donate now and keep my free Defense Grid. You can, but it would be the biggest dick move ever. Of course a hundred people or more will do it, so the developers will end their KS finding out that most of the backing is gone. Won't that be fun? I hope they realize this sooner than later and stop giving the keys away before the KS is over.
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Jul 11, 2012 14:01
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The defense Grid pitch pitch was quite nice. Wonder how they got all the guys to feature in their video. (Edit: By asking nicely probably.)Verdugo posted:
Tarquinn fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 14:02
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Tarquinn posted:The defense Grid pitch pitch was quite nice. Wonder how the got all the guys to feature in their video. (Edit: By asking nicely probably.) If its one thing gamers have never been accused of it's being mature.
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Jul 11, 2012 14:15
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The PA kickstarter is awesome and the goonrage directed towards is hilarious because it demonstrates how dense most goons are. It's not a 'true' kickstarter because they're not working towards a real project, this is just crowdfunding so that they're not beholden to ads (read: the same devs and publishers that they are supposed to mock). Using kickstarter is just a clever way of taking advantage of kickstarter's momentum and current hype train. They wouldn't get half as much money if they just asked for donations via a button on their site. It's just really funny how mad goons are about guys asking to run via donations from people instead of corporate money that could potentially affect their obejectivity*. Oh no, people donating to something I don't care about! How dare they!! * ok not real objectivity, but we all know that games journalism doesn't have the best rep for being objective when ad money is in the picture and I can see how PA would want to avoid that taint.
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Jul 11, 2012 16:03
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I don't think goons are getting as mad about it as people on twitter, and jealous cartoonists. There's already a revenge campaign. The 7th Guest fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 16:06
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Quest For Glory II posted:I don't think goons are getting as mad about it as people on twitter, and jealous cartoonists. With flexible funding! Some guy is going to walk away with a couple hundred bucks just because people are angry other people are getting money for "nothing". Amazing.
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Jul 11, 2012 16:14
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Quest For Glory II posted:I don't think goons are getting as mad about it as people on twitter, and jealous cartoonists. quote:Here's a basic rundown of the money I'm going to need for this project
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Jul 11, 2012 16:44
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Quest For Glory II posted:I don't think goons are getting as mad about it as people on twitter, and jealous cartoonists. Take note Mike and Jerry, this is how you troll crowdfunding.
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Jul 11, 2012 16:47
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Not that he'd ever get close to $10,000. If he even gets remotely close people are dumb, because he'll get to walk away with free money (IndieGoGo gives you the funds whether you reach goal or not).
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Jul 11, 2012 16:50
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Quest For Glory II posted:(IndieGoGo gives you the funds whether you reach goal or not). To be fair to Indiegogo, that's not every case. You can choose Flexible Funding, where people get the money straight away and regardless of the goal, or Fixed Funding which is what Kickstarter has. I don't get why people go to these kinds of lengths. If you don't like something, just avoid it, is it really that hard? Or is this just the Internet at work?
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Jul 11, 2012 16:56
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Antitonic posted:To be fair to Indiegogo, that's not every case. You can choose Flexible Funding, where people get the money straight away and regardless of the goal, or Fixed Funding which is what Kickstarter has.
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Jul 11, 2012 16:57
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Cicero posted:The PA kickstarter is awesome and the goonrage directed towards is hilarious because it demonstrates how dense most goons are. It's not a 'true' kickstarter because they're not working towards a real project, this is just crowdfunding so that they're not beholden to ads (read: the same devs and publishers that they are supposed to mock). Using kickstarter is just a clever way of taking advantage of kickstarter's momentum and current hype train. I don't understand why people keep saying this. It's been posted and reposted, but just look at Kickstarter's guidelines: quote:Funding for projects only. A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project. But this is not a project that is being funded. Penny Arcade is already funded. They already have their software, their website, and have a store where they sell merchandise. The comics will be made no matter what, just as they've been for several years. There is nothing tangible that will be produced as a result of the funding goal being met. quote:Prohibited uses: That's about as cut and dry as it gets. Per Kickstarter's stated rules visible to the public, this shouldn't fly for a number of reasons, yet Gabe noted that they did talk it over with Kickstarter beforehand and got the okay. This looks really cynical and comes off as "Kickstarter will okay things that are likely to make Kickstarter a lot of money regardless of their rules." So yeah, it's "goon rage" but it's largely because this would not likely be approved if they weren't who they were. The recent Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter rubs me the wrong way for similar reasons. You mean to tell me a game that Valve and Gearbox did addons for can't get a publisher? That the people who made the new Counter-Strike don't have the money? I'm honestly kind of dismayed that Kickstarter is approving these things seemingly because their 5% cut will be significant. Already successful companies and individuals using Kickstarter purely to not have to invest their own money into a project is effectively a hijack of the original intent. And as far as original intent goes, the latest Skyjacker update--something that legitimately would not get funded by a publisher that is being made by people who would need the funds to continue--notes that there are only 12 days to go (now 11 days) and they're still at about 44% progress. He understands that his English isn't the best, so here's a transcription. The short version is that current backers should try and up their pledge a tier if they can, and anyone who doesn't want to pledge should tell them why not so they can remedy it. I personally can vouch they're for real on this, as when I left my comments on their original Kickstarter regarding their tiers, they listened to all of my suggestions when they relaunched. Daryl Surat fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 17:02
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Quest For Glory II posted:This guy chose Flexible Funding though, so he's going to get every dollar that's sent to him. Yeah, I noticed that. I was just making a point since people seem to be down on IG based on the assumption it's Flexible Funding only. Surely there's nothing bad that could possibly come of that campaign either. 
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Jul 11, 2012 17:03
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Daryl Surat posted:You mean to tell me a game that Valve and Gearbox did addons for can't get a publisher? Yes. Developer/publisher relationships and profit sharing have been completely hosed up for a while, especially for smaller studios. It's not unreasonable at all.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:04
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Daryl Surat posted:Already successful companies and individuals using Kickstarter purely to not have to invest their own money into a project is effectively a hijack of the original intent. A company the size of the one behind Defense Grid is about one large-scale failure away from complete financial ruin. To combat this, they have to take on contract work, or stick only to smaller games that never eat up more than a fraction of their available funding base. This means no Defense Grid sequel, possibly ever, but certainly not for the forseeable future. Kickstarter is a way of getting the funding necessary for them to do a bigger game than they can thus afford (a sequel to Defense Grid). Apparently, people want to give them money to see this happen. Why is this a bad thing? (and also what NINbuntu 64 said. No, them getting a publisher for this scale of game would be quite difficult. The profit potential simply isn't high enough for them to care, and to make the game's profit potential high enough for publishing, Defense Grid 2 would have to become something else entirely. They'd have to generalize it / turn it into something big and generic enough to draw in masses of people) Shalinor fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 17:12
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Daryl Surat posted:I don't understand why people keep saying this. It's been posted and reposted, but just look at Kickstarter's guidelines: Whether the comic would be made regardless of the Kickstarter is irrelevant. A lot of the people coming to Kickstarter have the money or resources to do their project on their own, but if people are willing to fund it, then there's no reason for them to do that. Kickstarter is not a handout service for poor people, it's just a funding platform for creatives. They have never been against big projects, or notable people. I don't know why you even cited the "charity" or "fund my life" rules because this project is neither. Man I don't even read PA and now I end up defending them. What in the gently caress
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Jul 11, 2012 17:22
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Eh I can see why people believe it's against the Kickstarter's ToS/intent. I mean it's something that they're already doing, and content-wise almost nothing will change if the kickstarter succeeds.quote:I don't understand why people keep saying this. It's been posted and reposted, but just look at Kickstarter's guidelines:
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Jul 11, 2012 17:43
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This came up in the Ouya thread, but not everyone reads that. There's apparently a kickstarter for an iDevice dock with controllers and TV-out called "gamedock".
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Jul 11, 2012 17:44
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buttopticor posted:This came up in the Ouya thread, but not everyone reads that. There's apparently a kickstarter for an iDevice dock with controllers and TV-out called "gamedock". This reeks of something whose functionality will be patched out by Apple without warning. With the rewards being what they are, you can pay less for an OUYA with 2 controllers, and not need an iDevice which is outside of your control software-wise.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:52
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buttopticor posted:This came up in the Ouya thread, but not everyone reads that. There's apparently a kickstarter for an iDevice dock with controllers and TV-out called "gamedock".
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Jul 11, 2012 17:53
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Harlock posted:It looks really neat, but that Mario Kart rip-off game looks like absolute garbage. It only plays iCade games so all but three games will actually be worth a poo poo.
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Jul 11, 2012 17:54
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A friend of mine just brought up a good point about this Penny Arcade debacle. On the bright side: If it's funded PA will be able to say whatever they want without fear of losing advertisers. On the negative side: PA will be able to say whatever they want without fear of losing advertisers.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:04
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Ryaomon posted:A friend of mine just brought up a good point about this Penny Arcade debacle. Also Tycho often has good commentary on the gaming industry, dense language notwithstanding.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:22
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One of my biggest issues with the Defense Grid 2 kickstarter is that it isn't even for that. Their target is for 8 more levels for Defense Grid and they might make DG2 if they hit their magical target. My other issue is that they felt the need to include advertisements in their kickstarter. That is shamless.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:31
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So, has a major fully funded Kickstarter game been released yet? I really want to see how well these games actually sell when they're actually released considering that many people who would be interested in the game in the first place "bought" it through Kickstarter. I could be missing something really obvious here, please correct me if I am.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:47
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No, the first major Kickstarter game, Double Fine adventure, was funded less than 4 months ago so there are still many months to go.
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Jul 11, 2012 18:58
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FTL, which was funded sometime around Double Fine Adventure is in open beta right now and reportedly showing some impressive results (I'm not on it because I wasn't totally on board with KS). Also the Word Realms beta just launched this morning, and it's really fun if still pretty incomplete.
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Jul 11, 2012 19:02
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Al! posted:it's really fun if still pretty incomplete. dirby fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jul 11, 2012 |
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Jul 11, 2012 19:18
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Ravaged from the 2Dawn guys are also in beta right now, but I don't know if that counts as major as well since they "only" asked for 95k.
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Jul 11, 2012 19:38
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Hey, a personal message from a poster child for expensive toss-in bloat: 1. If you don’t want to pledge, TELL US WHY NOT. We can’t stress this enough - we can’t address a concern we haven’t heard. With eleven days left, there really isn't a lot of time for addressing anything but pleas for grassroots support and... oh, yeah: IF YOU DON’T WANT SKYJACKER TO SUCCEED 1. Sit back and relax ... ...comments that guarantee that I won't support any of your projects in future, you passive-aggressive shitstain.
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Jul 11, 2012 21:20
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