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Poop Delicatessen posted:Everyone has been qualifying their ideas just fine, and you've been given ample opportunity to qualify your own. What you need to understand is that when multiple people give you tons of examples proving that something you said was categorically incorrect, people don't want to listen to you complain about a non-existent bias against you in the thread. Since my only argument is "Krenko + Arms Dealer is hard to stop in U/W", I'm not sure what people are disagreeing with. I'm not saying these posts don't have value to me (for example I'm re-evaluating the Provocateur and will probably start picking Essence Scatters higher), just that when you point out that, say, putting in bad counterspells as a solution to a bomb card isn't really optimal and you get "Whoops, didn't know counterspells were bad. I guess I'll have to stop drafting w/u decks that actually win matches.", why should I not get an opportunity to respond? I do appreciate the insult though  MrBling posted:Avacyn Restored was a completely different format. It had some incredibly hard to answer cards, not just bomb rares and quality removal was scarce. Of the best removal cards (Murder, Searing Spear), the guy to my right got 3 Spears and 2 Murders, but I didn't see any. It's not like I'm passing the solutions and then getting super pissed that I didn't have one. AVR is a different beast but it has that same feeling with this card - "answer me now or you lose", when there is only one real answer at common in my colors, along with a lot of bad solutions (just like in AVR). Last Saturday I played against some real good drafters (or so I thought. Maybe they were secretly awful!!) and was lucky enough to get Krenko w/o the Arms Dealer and still won every game where Krenko landed, as luckily they had used the removal on other targets. The card is definitely a house and IMO the best red card for Limited in the set.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:28
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Jet Set Jettison posted:No you idiot. You literally asked how do you beat Krenko Armsdealer combo, then we gave you tons of ideas and then you started to Maybe you could try to read my posts then instead of dismissing them as crying? Because those "tons of ideas" consisted of cards that did A) literally nothing for you, B) would (maybe) stall half a turn, or C) would cause you to stunt your development and probably lose otherwise, along with some actual solutions. I mean given that this thread is usually not angry poo poo-flinging I kind of had to assume that there was some grudge here, unless I really am just being a whiner for pointing out how little a Pacifism will help you there.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:39
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and we dont understand why. But continue to poo poo up every thread with "green flyers mana combat abilities etc."
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I feel like no one is addressing the real question here, which is how many Time Walks Krenko constitutes.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:41
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If we can move to a (hopefully calmer) side point, whoever told you counterspells were bad in limited was oversimplifying. It was a good general rule at one point when they were really good in every constructed format, because new drafters would overvalue them a lot, but they definitely have their place, and often in sealed or slower draft formats I'll play one of even bad counterspells, because they're a nice check on the chance that you lose a match you generally have in hand to a massive bomb. Remove Soul is close to as good as counterspells get in limited, though, and I'd play multiples. They're never dead, and are cheap enough to fit them in around your other plays. A lot of the time on the draw just countering whatever they play on their third turn and then dropping a Horned Turtle or whatever is enough to seize back the initiative without any card loss, and they stay relevant for the whole of the game. There will be times when you can't keep mana up and the thing you most wanted to counter gets through, but all the stuff it does more than makes up for it at its cost.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:43
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JerryLee posted:I feel like no one is addressing the real question here, which is how many Time Walks Krenko constitutes. If you have an arms dealer and your opponent plays a 4 toughness creature for all his mana, using the arms dealer to sacrifice a krenko token is LITERALLY a time walk. Niton fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 22:44
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JerryLee posted:I feel like no one is addressing the real question here, which is how many Time Walks Krenko constitutes. 0 to 1, depending if Krenko has flying or not.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:45
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JerryLee posted:I feel like no one is addressing the real question here, which is how many Time Walks Krenko constitutes. None. Krenko has a combat ability. Its a poorly designed card.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:46
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Stagger_Lee posted:If we can move to a (hopefully calmer) side point, whoever told you counterspells were bad in limited was oversimplifying. It was a good general rule at one point when they were really good in every constructed format, because new drafters would overvalue them a lot, but they definitely have their place, and often in sealed or slower draft formats I'll play one of even bad counterspells, because they're a nice check on the chance that you lose a match you generally have in hand to a massive bomb. In general I feel the trick is keeping it within your mana curve. 2-mana counterspells are good because they can be used in a pinch on turn 2 when you don't really have a play, and can singlehandedly save a slow start. If you have few 3-drops (which rarely happens, but still), a 3-drop counterspell is good, especially Runeboggle or Complicate that can actually give you early card advantage. I think the bigger counters (like Rewind) kind of require a low curve because the higher your curve goes, the less likely it is that you'll ever have the 4 mana open. e: that said I am starting to like packing a Negate in the maindeck, as there's a ton of good non-creature spells in this format, again, it costing only 2 is crucial since it's a lot easier to leave that open on say, turn 6-7
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Jul 17, 2012 22:50
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Jet Set Jettison posted:None. Krenko has a combat ability. Its a poorly designed card. Hey man, I already know that you were incapable of understanding that argument (fortunately, the guys who actually design the cards do), you don't need to belabor it  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 17, 2012 22:53
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Negate is more iffy. I would play it as a 23rd card if I had nothing else, but otherwise it definitely starts in the sideboard and then goes in if enough suitable targets are seen.
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Jul 17, 2012 22:57
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It's definitely something I'm not thrilled about playing maindeck, but I was forced to in my Sealeds and it really wound up pulling its weight. Obviously I'll need to play it a bit more but so far I've never found it to be dead and it actually can really help lategame as there seem to be a bunch of 4-5+ cost big-impact spells that can really shift the game.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:05
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I'm actually more positive about drafting Negate, than I am Essence Scatter, due to the nature of creature selection in Blue. It's fairly easy to establish a big butt defense on the ground with low-priority draft picks and start a clock in the air in m13, which puts a higher priority on protecting those clocks. The non-creatures that opponents are going to play in M13 draft are going to be high impact, like removal, or enchantments/artifacts that beat your clock - and most of those spells happen after t4/t5 when both sides have established boards. Negate stops one of those whenever you draw it, and improves your gameplan on the grip. Essence Scatter stops the first effective creature you see on game 1, then becomes a question of worth in future games. Negate is going to be valuable barring an all-creature draw from the opponent - and can easily stop blowouts that might happen from an untimely Execution, Rain, or Firebrand. It's really too early to tell, and I don't like saying that one card is better than the other. But I like Negate much more in m13 than I did in m12 or m11.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:08
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That is certainly true. But M12 was a stupidly fast format where you quite literally didn't have time to play Negate. So far I quite like drafting M13. Harbor Bandit is an early favourite and its always nice to be able to pick up late game Harbor Serpents and actually play them.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:11
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MrBling posted:That is certainly true. But M12 was a stupidly fast format where you quite literally didn't have time to play Negate. Ive enjoyed it a lot too. I actually havent played with harbor bandit yet but everyone raves about him. I am a big fan of flame pig though. Actually that whole cycle is neat. Also the rings are all pretty great. I saw some people play rings that arent in their decks colors... I cant decide if this is a good decision or not.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:16
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It depends on which rings we're talking about. The black ring is pretty much always playable. White one as well. The green depends on your deck.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:18
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Ring of Xathrid is very interesting (and the only effect of its kind ever printed), Evos Isle can protect a creature from removal (like Krenko or Arms Dealer), and Kalonia can break a stall on a fat man. I don't know if i'd play the haste or vigilance ones, though.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:20
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MrBling posted:It depends on which rings we're talking about. I figured the blue and the white ones were pretty much auto-includes. But the black one? I guess Im biased towards regenerate but 2 colorless for regen is better than I realize.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:21
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Haste ring definitely seems like the weakest if you're not in the colour. Vigilance ring depends on your deck but it can be great. I haven't really tried the hexproof ringso I can't weigh in on that too much. Regeneration is definitely good, and trample is ace if you have some big guys you need to punch through a ground stall.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:26
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Jet Set Jettison posted:I figured the blue and the white ones were pretty much auto-includes. But the black one? I guess Im biased towards regenerate but 2 colorless for regen is better than I realize. I used the ring on deathtouch dudes, and once on a tormented soul. The deadly recluse, despite not getting bigger, becomes an incredible blocker when you can regenerate it.
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Jul 17, 2012 23:29
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MrBling posted:So far I quite like drafting M13. Harbor Bandit is an early favourite and its always nice to be able to pick up late game Harbor Serpents and actually play them. Me and my friend were Lone Goat fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 17, 2012 |
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Jul 17, 2012 23:29
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MrBling posted:Haste ring definitely seems like the weakest if you're not in the colour. Hexproof one is dope. Equip it to whatever you dont want to die and leave 2 mana open. Works real real well. I saw someone equip it to a Krenko and just go to town.
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Jul 18, 2012 11:19
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Basically any of them are good in limited if they're on-color for you. A +1/+1 counter every turn is the sort of incremental advantage that can quickly get out of hand. Black one on Tormented Soul or Vampire Nighthawk is downright dangerous. I think the ones that protect the creatures are best, but giving trample to a creature that gets bigger every turn is pretty good. Not to mention that green has things like Primal Huntbeast to put it on. Or Deadly Recluse. Sit back daring your opponent to sacrifice a creature into your Reach/Deathtouch blocker before it grows into a scary-big Trample/Deathtouch attacker.
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Jul 18, 2012 13:41
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I managed to draft red ring and slumbering dragon. Pretty good combo.
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Jul 18, 2012 14:05
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Jet Set Jettison posted:Hexproof one is dope. Equip it to whatever you dont want to die and leave 2 mana open. Works real real well. I saw someone equip it to a Krenko and just go to town. I mentioned this earlier, but hexproof ring + Arctic Aven + a Plains let me stall out the board for ~5 turns in 3 or 4 games during the prerelease.
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Jul 18, 2012 16:03
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Call Me Abey posted:Also, to avoid full meta-commentary: After having played quite a few MTGO Cube v2's, I feel like I don't care for it as much as the first. There seems to be too much incentive to running gambits on decktypes, vs. trying to build a deck with the best options presented. Bit late on this but I agree completely, I can't seem to get past the 2-1 mark with mid range good stuff decks, even if they have a coherent strategy. I normally get walked over by some sort of Boros or RDW deck in the final.
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Jul 18, 2012 22:55
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 I have no idea how I managed to draft this deck. The Skinthinner even tabled. I thought it might just be me not understanding what a good deck in this format was, but then I won the draft (not conclusive either, obviously, but still). Likely I should have started some of the blue, the haunted cadavers weren't actually that good and I sided them and the polluters out for clone, echo tracers and lingering death in two out of my three matches. I think I was just excited to get what seemed like a completely playable mono-color deck.
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Jul 19, 2012 00:00
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JerryLee posted:Likely I should have started some of the blue, the haunted cadavers weren't actually that good and I sided them and the polluters out for clone, echo tracers and lingering death in two out of my three matches. I think I was just excited to get what seemed like a completely playable mono-color deck. Mono-black was absurd in Time Spiral block as well. I drafted heavy black three times, and went 3-0 twice. In the 2-1 draft I faced another black-heavy deck in the finals, but generally people tended to avoid black.
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Jul 19, 2012 00:11
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JerryLee posted:
This deck is pretty bonkers, even without the blue cards.
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Jul 19, 2012 04:16
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Is there any good strategies that apply to sealed but dont apply to draft? Or really just any general sealed strategy? The Grand Prix in my area is gonna be sealed, so i want to know to how play decently in sealed, and not dismiss my inevitable 0-9 record as "bad pack luck."
Bread Set Jettison fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Jul 19, 2012 |
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Jul 19, 2012 12:39
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I think the key for sealed is to be as aggressive as possible if you don't have many/any overpowered cards. The idea behind this strategy is that, if you don't have anything really powerful, you want to kill your opponent before they have the chance to draw/cast their powerful stuff. You just want to build your deck in such a way that it has a clear plan as to how it's going to win the game, and without bombs, that plan is usually to win quickly.
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Jul 19, 2012 13:04
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With some sets, enchantments and/or artifacts may show up a lot more in Sealed than in Draft. For example, I wouldn't feel too bad about maindecking Erase in M13 Sealed, because everyone seems to be in White, and even if they aren't, Pacifism / Oblivion Ring are still splashable, and once in a while you might even get to Erase a Rancor.
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Jul 19, 2012 17:19
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I'm about to draft Onslaught for the first time in my life! I've never drafted old sets before.
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Jul 20, 2012 00:20
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Gyshall posted:I'm about to draft Onslaught for the first time in my life! I've never drafted old sets before.
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Jul 20, 2012 00:44
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Boy of Joy posted:From my 2 drafts, BW, UR and mostly mono black seem to be really good so far. Elves. Oh god. Wellwishers and Timber Watch elves are hilariously broken. Of course, if you don't get them, you're hosed, so better hope no one else is doing it. I got a 3rd pick Timberwatch after spending my first two picks that pack picking up 2 more. Hilarity ensued. 4 wellwishers and 3 timberwatch elves is probably the best draft deck I've ever had.
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Jul 20, 2012 01:45
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Cynic Jester posted:Elves. Oh god. Wellwishers and Timber Watch elves are hilariously broken. Of course, if you don't get them, you're hosed, so better hope no one else is doing it. I got a 3rd pick Timberwatch after spending my first two picks that pack picking up 2 more. Hilarity ensued. 4 wellwishers and 3 timberwatch elves is probably the best draft deck I've ever had.
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Jul 20, 2012 01:59
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Cynic Jester posted:Of course, if you don't get them, you're hosed, so better hope no one else is doing it. And/or Lavamancer's skill, because this is the block of the most insane limited commons ever.
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Jul 20, 2012 02:53
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Unfortunately you can't really hope to draft the insane lavamancer's skill deck with only one pack of Onslaught. It's still not bad to have a copy of, though, and you could always get lucky!
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Jul 20, 2012 03:04
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JerryLee posted:Unfortunately you can't really hope to draft the insane lavamancer's skill deck with only one pack of Onslaught. It's still not bad to have a copy of, though, and you could always get lucky! 
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Jul 20, 2012 03:23
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I keep going 2/x in online onslaught drafts. Last time it was G/W soldiers with a few beasts for beef. This time it's Gw with elves and beasts splashing white for eternal dragon. Pack 1 pick 1: Kamahl. Pack 1 pick 2: windswept heath. I felt like I was cheating.
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Jul 20, 2012 18:59
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Drafted mono-R Krenko.dec today at FNM for 3-1. I think it was a bit above average for the deck, just played against equally mediocre decks. Took p1p1 Krenko and pretty much forced on that because why the hell not - my immediate upstream was also on red so was cut pretty hard. I think taking Krenko p1p1 over Nighthawk was still right, but not dropping it for open U and B was wrong, the deck would have been better. But not as fun! Finally left the blue and black I had on the board and just gobboed it out. Krenko was obviously busted when it got rolling, but having triple Arms Dealer made up for not having any Searing Spears or Flames of Firebrand, just one Volcanic Geyser as a burn (and I debated that pick long between that and second Krenko's Command in pack 3!). With triple Wild Guess, two Goblin Rummagers things worked quite consistently, but the Arms Dealer's for sure were the MVPs, letting me pretty much handle threats at my leisure, get actual 2-1s with my triple Goblin Arsonist. Round 1 was a bit frustrating against the drafter upstream of me. G1 I know he has to have the Predatory Rampage I opened pack 2, and speed up to T5 Mindclaw Shaman when he's still at 4 mana, with four cards in hand. He reveals a grip of just creatures and a land so a whiff - then draws the Rampage from top of his deck on his turn. G2 he's with empty hand but with a fast clock that will kill me in two turns (3/3 hexproof with the mountainwalk pants and the green ring). I know I can burn him out on my next turn - again Rampage from the top. I end up winning a game on round 2 by Arms Dealering my Stuffy Doll for 16. Not the best of decks, but was the fun one! Prize rare pool was pretty bad for ten player draft table though, with "best" two rares after Liliana being UW dual and the Merfolk lord...
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Jul 20, 2012 21:14
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