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The screwed-up way FO3 portrayed the status of civilization (mainly still living on the scraps of the old world rather than building new societies) creates a problem for how to write the BoS. Contrast this with FO1, wherein most communities were built de novo (e.g. Shady Sands, The Hub, Junktown) and FO2 even gave us Vault City, which was pretty advanced. Also, I always preferred possible endings of most games wherein the BoS is researching and sharing advanced technology for the surrounding societies. I get a bit frustrated when they are portrayed as borderline xenophobic and hoarding, especially two centuries after the war when they should have rebuilt/protected a good chunk of society. Maybe New Vegas is supposed to just portray McNamara's individual flaws in this regard, since FO1 and FO2 certainly don't, and Lyon's chapter, Outcasts aside, actively helped the Capital Wasteland.
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Sep 1, 2012 23:27
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Space Racist posted:What's the minimum level I should attempt Dead Money at? I'm playing a sneaky, energy-weapons centric character and would love to get my hands on the holorifle, but I remember that DLC being quite the bitch for my only other playthrough when I attempted it in the mid-20s (though granted, that character was pretty much all guns/melee weapons). Weapon skills are meaningless for Dead Money (and almost the entire game really). With a few of the AP perks and average agility you can easily get 5 pistol shots + a reload in VATS, which'll easily finish off the DLC enemiesregardless of where you shoot them. The holorifle is absurdly powerful once it's modded and is overkill for any of the DLC enemies. It also makes Old World Blues pretty trivial, so you may want to leave it behind before entering. I've really enjoyed JSawyer so far, but I hope the next version gives players with low weapon skills a harder time. Beer Hall Putz fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Sep 1, 2012 |
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Sep 1, 2012 23:35
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Derek Dominoe posted:Also, I always preferred possible endings of most games wherein the BoS is researching and sharing advanced technology for the surrounding societies. I get a bit frustrated when they are portrayed as borderline xenophobic and hoarding, That's the entire point of the BoS.
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Sep 1, 2012 23:44
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Bilal posted:That's the entire point of the BoS. So I should be able to Speech check them into not being such jerks then 
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Sep 2, 2012 00:14
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If you could speech check Lanius, of all people...
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Sep 2, 2012 00:27
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Derek Dominoe posted:Also, I always preferred possible endings of most games wherein the BoS is researching and sharing advanced technology for the surrounding societies. I get a bit frustrated when they are portrayed as borderline xenophobic and hoarding, especially two centuries after the war when they should have rebuilt/protected a good chunk of society. Maybe New Vegas is supposed to just portray McNamara's individual flaws in this regard, since FO1 and FO2 certainly don't, and Lyon's chapter, Outcasts aside, actively helped the Capital Wasteland. I felt terrible for having to destroy them the first time I finished New Vegas. That, far more than anything else I had done in the game, was an exceptionally difficult decision. I really do find it the most difficult thing House asks you to do, but I just faced up to it with I am his employee and I will do my drat job. For the first time in a long while did I actually feel squirmy and uncomfortable about a decision I had made in a video game. It felt like I had actually crossed a line and done something unforgivable. Not only that, I was forced to deal with the reality of Mr. House - what he actually does to people. Kind of a (Game of Thrones spoiler) Theon Greyjoy moment. It was great. Sorry Veronica. Then, second time, I tried to get in without Veronica with me. Holy gently caress, I don't care if you're nice to me afterwards. If the first thing you do is jam a loving bomb collar on me I am going to feel totally vindicated in slashing my way through the place with Turbo and a Straight Razor.
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Sep 2, 2012 00:31
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Derek Dominoe posted:Also, I always preferred possible endings of most games wherein the BoS is researching and sharing advanced technology for the surrounding societies. I get a bit frustrated when they are portrayed as borderline xenophobic and hoarding, especially two centuries after the war when they should have rebuilt/protected a good chunk of society. Maybe New Vegas is supposed to just portray McNamara's individual flaws in this regard, since FO1 and FO2 certainly don't, and Lyon's chapter, Outcasts aside, actively helped the Capital Wasteland. This is the entire goddamn point. They are not the good guys. The BoS in FO3 felt completely out of sync with the universe, like Bethesda couldn't handle the idea that their game didn't have any good guy white knights in it, so they had to made up a splinter chapter that is, frankly, difficult to believe. They're supposed to be a deranged cult who aren't remotely concerned with the wasteland or the wellbeing of the people in it, the only thing they care about is to follow the laws that their book lays out. When you take that away from them, they're not interesting anymore. I made peace with them the first time I played through, but when I did a Mr House playthrough, and he lays out why he hates the Brotherhood in a few sentences, I thought "You know what? Everything he said is completely spot on." and blew those fuckers up. House, in his brutal, machiavellian way, cares a lot more about the people of the wasteland and the good of humanity as a whole than the Brotherhood ever will.
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Sep 2, 2012 00:51
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Beaumont posted:I was forced to deal with the reality of Mr. House - what he actually does to people. He- he kills the Kings. Maybe the BoS is a huge obstacle, but the Kings? gently caress you, Mr House, you psycho lunatic.
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Sep 2, 2012 00:56
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They seem better than they are since they're more or less on your side during Fallout 2 and 3. In the original though, they're a bunch of colossal douchebags who, first time meeting them, send you on a quest that's meant to have you die horribly in a gazillion rad hellhole because they think it's funny. And then there's Rhombus...
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Sep 2, 2012 00:58
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Saoshyant posted:He- he kills the Kings. Maybe the BoS is a huge obstacle, but the Kings? gently caress you, Mr House, you psycho lunatic. If you don't bulid a treaty between them and the NCR, he leaves them alone. I would have thought that the Omertas would be more a big deal for him - they're on the edge of going rouge, and their base is literally across the road from House's fortress. The Chairmen seem to mostly like House, and the White Gloves are too smug to care anyway.
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Sep 2, 2012 01:15
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When I finish my current run, I'm going to be a superdick/Mr House's henchman.
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Sep 2, 2012 01:46
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I'm having a lot of trouble personally deciding between which faction to back, the NCR, Mr. House or my own self. If I back the NCR, do they stop being hold-the-line chickenshits and start whooping rear end? I'd love to get to take over the NCR in my area and have an army that can continue on after my character dies, rather than the idea of me and a buncha robots being the only law left in the land. But since that can't happen, I have to choose between "The only good army", "A crazy old man who will likely die soon", and... me. I could just do one playthrough with one faction, then another with another, but...
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Sep 2, 2012 01:57
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rotinaj posted:I'm having a lot of trouble personally deciding between which faction to back, the NCR, Mr. House or my own self. If I back the NCR, do they stop being hold-the-line chickenshits and start whooping rear end? Sometimes. Managing to tiptoe your way around the Powder Gangers long enough to complete I Fought the Law by having a half dozen troopers just blow up the wall and shoot everyone is good fun. (Though you have to help them out quite a bit once they enter the administration building.) And if you're willing to grind it out with poorly indicated side quests at Camp Forlorn Hope you can overrun the Legion camp everyone has been whining about with four NCR Veteran Rangers, all carrying sniper rifles, which just as one sided as it sounds (although there are a couple of mines in their typical paths that you should probably watch out for.) Also re: Brotherhood of Steel. Even in Fallout 1, wasn't there a potential ending for them that had them become reasonably lawful and neutral? I haven't played it but I gathered something like that from the wiki.
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Sep 2, 2012 02:25
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Teen Hero Greg posted:
There was, it was a bit of a toss-up with the brotherhood in FO1, one of the endings has them turn into a techno-religious fascist force but that wasn't considered canon I believe, the other has them being relatively chill, guiding new societies through there technological development and trading peacefully for at least a few decades after the end of the first game. The writing around them is very confused, back in FO1 there is very little indication of their supposed desire to control and restrict technology from the rest of humanity, in fact they explicitly say that they develop fancy power armor and energy weapons to sell to other communities, which would run counter to all of the stuff said in New Vegas. They just seem like any other town or community with survival being their only real concern in FO1, except of course they have super-advanced technology, there's next to no mention of any over-arching ideology when you chat to their members. They don't figure much in FO2, so I think the current incarnation of them being an extremely insular, paranoid group of maniacs who lose their poo poo if they see anyone else with a plasma pistol(at least over west) is born out of one of the endings for FO1, Fallout tactics:BOS and a lot of the semi-canon content that was going to be present in Van Buren. Its not that, its just new vegas gave them motivations and codes that seemed pulled out of nowhere compared to last games. What the heck is the Codex for example, and why is everyone saying it goes right back to the start of the brotherhood when there was no previous sign of it anywhere? VVVVV khwarezm fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Sep 2, 2012 |
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Sep 2, 2012 03:48
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Gosh. Maybe they're not a single monolithic entity that never changes over the centuries after all! (The FO3 take on them is still lame)
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Sep 2, 2012 03:53
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The Fallout 3 BoS is so snotty about how they were doing you the favour of slaughtering every mutant they see and how the player character is nothing but a burden holding them back and getting in the way (despite the fact that there's a goddamn scripted event that shows how the player character can handle bigger super mutants than the BoS, to say nothing of how the main quest requires you to commit singlehanded genocide of all super mutants, and there's no way that they'll let you into their base, you may be tired and hungry as well as being one of the wastelanders that they've promised to protect, but if you don't have someone vouching for you, they're deathly afraid that you might breathe on their precious technology or something.
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Sep 2, 2012 05:45
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:This is the entire goddamn point. They are not the good guys. The BoS in FO3 felt completely out of sync with the universe, like Bethesda couldn't handle the idea that their game didn't have any good guy white knights in it, so they had to made up a splinter chapter that is, frankly, difficult to believe. They're supposed to be a deranged cult who aren't remotely concerned with the wasteland or the wellbeing of the people in it, the only thing they care about is to follow the laws that their book lays out. When you take that away from them, they're not interesting anymore. This isn't true at all. They were super-secretive in FO1 because it was just 2 generations since the war, and even then they actively traded with Junktown. The "canon" ending to FO1 has them actively helping the fledgling NCR. By FO2 they have bunkers in several of NCR's cities, though they are getting a little worried since they see the Enclave has Vertibirds and more advanced power armor, and they have grown a bit stagnant themselves. In FO3 they treat Lyons as though he is this bizarre anomaly by creating a chapter that actively helps the community, which makes no sense unless you want to argue that his specific mission for the DC area was to grab tech and run/report back instead of putting down roots. New Vegas has open hostility between BoS and NCR, which going by the game's storyline, has a lot to do with NCR's ambitions and continuous expansion/power grabs. Again, you had a bit of a bizarre chapter in that their continuous isolation, even from the rest of the BoS apparently, was strange enough to cause a lot of strife within the Mojave chapter itself. Still, unless your first Fallout was 3, the idea that BoS only ever intended to sit in bunkers and hoard weapons is a little off. So ultimately I see my interactions with the Mojave BoS as putting them back on track by getting them out of their bunkers and back in the community. I don't mind that they took their power armor back from NCR, who is getting a little aggressive for my tastes, especially since they took up protection of the roads for traders.
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Sep 2, 2012 06:09
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Is it possible to completely erase a faction? I want to wipe out the Powder Gangers, but can't find where the last few stragglers could be.
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Sep 2, 2012 06:53
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DeathChicken posted:I was more annoyed at Caesar *insisting* the BoS be wiped out, or he'd throw one of his trademark fits. You know dude, if you'd leave them be, they'd probably help out by picking on the NCR (at least after I replaced the elder). And furthermore, they'd get their asses kicked again doing it, but as far as our cause goes, this is a Good Thing. Yeah, that seemed to show that Caesar wasn't all that pragmatic. The BoS would never interfere with the Legion or do anything that didn't help them in some way. The Legion is pretty much what the BoS thinks humanity should be, and the Legion would be well served by having a small number of high powered soldiers roaming around smashing robots and gathering technology that could threaten the Legion.
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Sep 2, 2012 07:27
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rotinaj posted:Is it possible to completely erase a faction? I want to wipe out the Powder Gangers, but can't find where the last few stragglers could be. You have to wipe out the BoS for certain endings. Outside of the main story, you can probably kill all Powder Gangers, though the game may not recognize it story-wise. Besides the correctional facility, they have camps in each of the cardinal directions from the jail and the biggest outside faction is in Vault 19. I don't think they randomly spawn anywhere. You may also be able to kill all Great Khans, Boomers, and Kings. I can't think of any time when these spawn randomly.
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Sep 2, 2012 07:55
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Doesn't Moore send you to dispose of the Kings if you go NCR?
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Sep 2, 2012 08:22
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QUEEN CAUCUS posted:Doesn't Moore send you to dispose of the Kings if you go NCR? Only if you don't still have the favor the King gave you. And you didn't talk to Hsu even though Crocker TOLD YOU he was the level-headed one on the matter. You cannot accidentally wipe out the Kings without being a terrible human being. v v v Hell of a way to spell Primm Slim, mister. dont be mean to me fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Sep 2, 2012 |
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Sep 2, 2012 08:32
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I think we can all agree that no matter which factions you favor or oppose, all choices are acceptable as long as Meyers is sheriff of Primm. "Howdy-doo, folks. I'm Sheriff Meyers. Be good, or I'll shoot you dead."
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Sep 2, 2012 09:08
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Holy hell this game is awesome. For some reason I have never got in to it proper until now and Im loving every bit of it. I am just doing the OWB quests and was wondering what would be a good dlc to buy after it. atm. I only have cash to buy one.
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Sep 2, 2012 10:27
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Derek Dominoe posted:I think we can all agree that no matter which factions you favor or oppose, all choices are acceptable as long as Primm Slim is sheriff of Primm. Fixed that for you. 
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Sep 2, 2012 10:59
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VaultAggie posted:Fixed that for you. "ERROR: Token not found." 
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Sep 2, 2012 11:18
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While they are lovely and all for carrying junk, how do you make companions stay in your room without it counting towards your number? I have veronica and Ed-e but they are both kind of uh...insane about bad dudes and charge off like idiots. I tried dismissing them in my hotel room and they just disappeared instead of staying like I thought they would. e; long live primm slim
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Sep 2, 2012 11:20
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Synnr posted:While they are lovely and all for carrying junk, how do you make companions stay in your room without it counting towards your number? I have veronica and Ed-e but they are both kind of uh...insane about bad dudes and charge off like idiots. I tried dismissing them in my hotel room and they just disappeared instead of staying like I thought they would. You'll get a full suite when you reach Vegas, plus an option for them to wait there while not counting as active companions.
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Sep 2, 2012 11:22
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rotinaj posted:Is it possible to completely erase a faction? I want to wipe out the Powder Gangers, but can't find where the last few stragglers could be. I am so excited about this in my current game. I just discovered the joy that is Explosives skill and Esther, and I am going to cheat myself a few extra (1000) Tiny Tot's and enjoy sitting on the mountain above them and raining death on the Prison.
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Sep 2, 2012 13:24
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Synnr posted:While they are lovely and all for carrying junk, how do you make companions stay in your room without it counting towards your number? I have veronica and Ed-e but they are both kind of uh...insane about bad dudes and charge off like idiots. I tried dismissing them in my hotel room and they just disappeared instead of staying like I thought they would. Without any mods, your only options are to send them back to where they came from or to ship them out to the Lucky 38.
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Sep 2, 2012 13:35
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JuHoZ posted:Holy hell this game is awesome. For some reason I have never got in to it proper until now and Im loving every bit of it. I am just doing the OWB quests and was wondering what would be a good dlc to buy after it. atm. I only have cash to buy one. It depends on what you like, OWB is usually regarded as the best though fair warning. Honest Hearts is a bit short and easy but is a good area to calmly explore and has some great writing. It really to me feels a lot like FO3 in that regard, in that it's most fun just ambling around finding poo poo. The writing is way better though, cause Obsidian. Also adds some seriously good Guns. Dead Money has amazing writing but is a huge change from the rest of the game(it's a linear survival horror type experience) and a lot of people find the actual gameplay tedious (I liked it but I went in with a good build for it). Also it has plot connections with OWB and Veronica back in the Mojave so if you're interested in those visitors who wrecked up the place and the BoS Dead Money's story will probably appeal to you more. Lonesome Road is probably the most connected to the game's story and wraps up a lot of stuff hinted at in the main game and DLC. It is fairly meaty solid action and has the toughest content in the game but it has writing people either like or hate (never seen someone who loved it though). It adds amazing poo poo for explosives in particular but good gear for basically everything except really energy weapons. If you've only got money for one and don't see yourself coming back later and maybe buying more I'd get LR, just for the closure if nothing else. A Sometimes Food fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Sep 2, 2012 |
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Sep 2, 2012 14:11
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:Yeah, that seemed to show that Caesar wasn't all that pragmatic. The BoS would never interfere with the Legion or do anything that didn't help them in some way. The Legion is pretty much what the BoS thinks humanity should be, and the Legion would be well served by having a small number of high powered soldiers roaming around smashing robots and gathering technology that could threaten the Legion. We were talking about the hypothetical giant robot that might exist under the fort, and I was quite naturally wondering why he wouldn't just use that robot to smash the NCR. He made the rather interesting point that he wasn't interested in a victory without sacrifice. He wanted his army to conquer through their own blood and their own strength. The implication was that he wanted to build a nation that wasn't as "pragmatic" as the NCR, always looking for shortcuts and the easy way, and instead he wanted a nation that accepted, and even expected, that sacrifice was necessary for the greater good. I haven't asked him about the Brotherhood specifically, but I'm in the middle of a Legion playthrough, so I'm looking forward to hearing him out on that, but I'd guess it has something to do with the importance of the Legion taking out the NCR themselves, without relying on other factions. He may have a repugnant philosophy, but it's just so fascinatingly coherent. Talking with Caesar has to be just about my favorite thing in New Vegas.
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Sep 2, 2012 14:22
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Anything specific I should take with me to OWB? I've got the Paladin Toaster and Holorifle as per reccomendation earlier in the thread, something else important or pack some repair kits and C4, leaving the rest open for on location loot? Not playing hardcore so I'm good on ammo and stimpacks.
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Sep 2, 2012 14:58
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A Sometimes Food posted:It depends on what you like, OWB is usually regarded as the best though fair warning. That's a really dubious claim. Right here in this thread it seems like every single DLC has people that hate it, people that love it, and people that haven't given it a second thought.
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Sep 2, 2012 15:05
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Asehujiko posted:Anything specific I should take with me to OWB? I've got the Paladin Toaster and Holorifle as per reccomendation earlier in the thread, something else important or pack some repair kits and C4, leaving the rest open for on location loot? You get permanent storage immediately upon entering the DLC. thehumandignity posted:That's a really dubious claim. Right here in this thread it seems like every single DLC has people that hate it, people that love it, and people that haven't given it a second thought. Ya, OWB is at the bottom of the list for me.
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Sep 2, 2012 15:07
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thehumandignity posted:That's a really dubious claim. Right here in this thread it seems like every single DLC has people that hate it, people that love it, and people that haven't given it a second thought. I haven't ever seen anyone say that they absolutely loved Lonesome Road the most around here, it seemed to get a really lukewarm reaction compared to others, which have people going crazy about how good they think they are.
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Sep 2, 2012 15:45
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khwarezm posted:Its not that, its just new vegas gave them motivations and codes that seemed pulled out of nowhere compared to last games. What the heck is the Codex for example, and why is everyone saying it goes right back to the start of the brotherhood when there was no previous sign of it anywhere? In Fallout 1 the BoS were explicitly described as a bunch of gun freaks, but they openly traded and interacted with the surrounding communities because they were a major player in California- the only other people who had access to energy weapons were the Gun Runners, but nobody else had power armor and cybernetics. By 2281, everybody, down to the Fiends, have plasma rifles and you can get cybernetic implants from the Followers. Also the Brotherhood just lost a long and casualty-heavy campaign against the NCR, and it's no wonder why they're so different than they were in FO1- they're irrelevant, and the isolationism and desperation comes from that.
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Sep 2, 2012 18:51
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khwarezm posted:I haven't ever seen anyone say that they absolutely loved Lonesome Road the most around here, it seemed to get a really lukewarm reaction compared to others, which have people going crazy about how good they think they are. I loved Lonesome Road the most. It's me. I'm that guy. If you were to ask me why, I don't think I could give a satisfactory answer. The gameplay is kind of repetitive; it's a long slog through a dead urban maze. The new enemies are pretty aggravating. My stealthy gun-toting default character always gets his rear end beat by the tunnelers. In short, it can be kind of exhausting. But there is something about that DLC that makes me feel like I can legitimately talk critical analysis--theme, characterization, symbolism, and minor tricks like objective correlatives--and not come off like I'm trying to validate video games as an art form. There's a lot of poo poo to talk about--not just experience--in LR. It has a sense of deliberation. edit: I should add that that particular sense isn't just limited to LR; it's throughout almost all of New Vegas and the rest of the expansions. But Lonesome Road feels like a cumulative analysis on the themes that the player explored in the rest of the game. And, really. I'm gay for Ulysses' voice. 
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Sep 2, 2012 19:07
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I really liked Lonesome Road, if only for how much it connects with every other bit of New Vegas. Even when you leave the Mojave in Honest Hearts the shadow of Ulysses is there. Finally piecing together your story, and the story of the Mojave you're a part of was just satisfying. Also Ulysses has a cool coat and you get one.
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Sep 2, 2012 19:30
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Lonesome Road was my favorite too. My only gripe was how linear it was, but the challenge was nice. OWB had waaaaaaayyyyy too much running back and forth for me, and HH was too short. I've bitched about DM enough so I'm not even going there.
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Sep 2, 2012 19:31
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