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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Gaddafi's military? Doubt it. Do keep in mind that there was a civil war with a whole lotta factions involved. Some of which were far more radical than others and have been effectively excluded from the new government. You can doubt it all you want, but I'm not speculating on their goals or ideals here. Accurate, sustained mortar fire is not indicative of a local Arabian-style insurgency, so unless they were professional soldiers sent from elsewhere I'd bet a large amount of money that they received their training while Gaddafi was still in power. edit: I re-read what I wrote, remnant was probably the wrong word. Former members is probably more what I was going for. vacation in merica fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 15:14
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Nagato posted:An Egyptian with a criminal record funds a crappy film through a shell company named "Pharaoh Voice, Inc.", overdubs it in postproduction so it is making fun of Muhammad, pretends to be an Israeli Jew and inserts gratuitous references to Judaism, premieres it in Hollywood at a show nobody comes to, lays quiet for some months, and mysteriously on September 11, the film trailer is shown on Egyptian television. It was broadcast on Egyptian TV on the 8th or the 9th I believe. The segment was uploaded to YouTube on the 9th in any case.
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Sep 13, 2012 15:16
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Kaal posted:Out those people as being terrible and then defriend them. Friend or family - there's nothing to gain from maintaining social ties with people like that. Once I heard Rush Limbaugh advise a woman to cut off ties completely with her family because they would talk about politics at the dinner table and it made her uncomfortable because they were vaguely democratic leaning. It's just as dumb and antisocial an idea when you suggest it 
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Sep 13, 2012 15:27
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vacation in merica posted:You can doubt it all you want, but I'm not speculating on their goals or ideals here. Accurate, sustained mortar fire is not indicative of a local Arabian-style insurgency, so unless they were professional soldiers sent from elsewhere I'd bet a large amount of money that they received their training while Gaddafi was still in power. Not having much practice with mortars myself, couldn't it entirely possibly have just been one person who linked up with an extremist group?
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Sep 13, 2012 15:28
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Anatharon posted:Not having much practice with mortars myself, couldn't it entirely possibly have just been one person who linked up with an extremist group?
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Sep 13, 2012 15:33
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The Asian Oprah posted:Once I heard Rush Limbaugh advise a woman to cut off ties completely with her family because they would talk about politics at the dinner table and it made her uncomfortable because they were vaguely democratic leaning. Yes. Everything is always in exact ballance and so are actions and effects.
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Sep 13, 2012 15:37
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The Asian Oprah posted:Once I heard Rush Limbaugh advise a woman to cut off ties completely with her family because they would talk about politics at the dinner table and it made her uncomfortable because they were vaguely democratic leaning. Plus it's way more annoying if you continually call them out on their bullshit.
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Sep 13, 2012 15:38
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quote:An Egyptian with a criminal record funds a crappy film through a shell company named "Pharaoh Voice, Inc.", overdubs it in postproduction so it is making fun of Muhammad, pretends to be an Israeli Jew and inserts gratuitous references to Judaism, premieres it in Hollywood at a show nobody comes to, lays quiet for some months, and mysteriously on September 11, the film trailer is shown on Egyptian television. The guy seems to have tricked the actors, putt words in their mouths that they did not agree, this could be seen as putting them in danger, and at best violating a contract or something. This has got to be illegal
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Sep 13, 2012 16:05
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They confirmed it. Nakoula Basseley Nakoula identified as anti-Muslim filmmaker Sam Bacile http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81158.html#ixzz26MXSxDkb
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Sep 13, 2012 16:05
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kylejack posted:They confirmed it. What an rear end in a top hat, further reinforced by him trying to blame it on Jews
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Sep 13, 2012 16:11
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I don't approve of this leak. The guy's a douche, for sure, but disclosing his identity like this has a strong chance of getting someone killed.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:11
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Fangz posted:I don't approve of this leak. The guy's a douche, for sure, but disclosing his identity like this has a strong chance of getting someone killed.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:16
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Fangz posted:I don't approve of this leak. The guy's a douche, for sure, but disclosing his identity like this has a strong chance of getting someone killed. Nakula/Bacile looks like he's going to enjoy a trip to Club Fed as his probation terms from his fraud indictment included not being allowed to use the internet. Probably how Politico got the info if the police were picking him up for breaching his probation. So that's one way to protect yourself. gently caress him, anyway. You reap what you sow.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:18
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Fangz posted:I don't approve of this leak. The guy's a douche, for sure, but disclosing his identity like this has a strong chance of getting someone killed. We already knew his "identity" except it was an alias. This is just connecting the disclosed name with the actual person. It's not like he's in the Witness Protection program or anything.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:18
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Fangz posted:I don't approve of this leak. The guy's a douche, for sure, but disclosing his identity like this has a strong chance of getting someone killed. I don't think this champion of free speech would want "Someone might get killed." to stop freedom of expression.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:20
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Fangz posted:I don't approve of this leak. The guy's a douche, for sure, but disclosing his identity like this has a strong chance of getting someone killed. Are you serious? It's better for no one to know who this rear end in a top hat is. Just let him keep making videos.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:29
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The information would get out eventually - this being the age of information and all. At least AP could give them a heads-up and alert authorities who might have to protect him. But it's a sticky situation, of course. I just think it's inevitable that he gets named in this day and age.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:31
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FuriousxGeorge posted:I don't think this champion of free speech would want "Someone might get killed." to stop freedom of expression. He did it with the full intent of sparking riots and death. He defrauded other participants and did he best to place the blame on Israel and Jews and hoped to kick off a war. This is in no way a "free speech" issue. This is inciting to violence. He went into it fully aware of what it would spark, and pushed as much as possible to ensure it would indeed spark that violence.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:31
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:He did it with the full intent of sparking riots and death. He defrauded other participants and did he best to place the blame on Israel and Jews and hoped to kick off a war. This is in no way a "free speech" issue. This is inciting to violence. He went into it fully aware of what it would spark, and pushed as much as possible to ensure it would indeed spark that violence. Not to mention: He was okay with misleading everyone else involved with the film, who had no chances to protect their own identities. And it doesn't really seem like he created his alias to protect himself, but more to mislead others.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:40
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international owl day posted:Wait; what? He's suggesting a guard spied on them right before they were attacked? If they have men on the inside of our counsolates, how many of them do you think might be infected? That sounds like he meant the Libyan police and not somebody employed by the US government. Police guards are often supplied by host governments. Some are very committed and some aren't, but they stand outside Embassy grounds so there's not much the embassy can do about it.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:41
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Would it be possible to try him for inciting to violence? Does the US have relevant laws? If not, then maybe in some international court?
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Sep 13, 2012 16:43
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meristem posted:Would it be possible to try him for inciting to violence? Does the US have relevant laws? If not, then maybe in some international court? International court trying him? Not very likely.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:45
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kylejack posted:It has to be a call to action, like a call to go kill people, and even then it can be considered protected speech under certain circumstances. Like, talking about overthrowing the government is considered a political opinion, even though it would involve killing people. On the other hand, a parole violation that results in 4 deaths and strains US diplomatic relations in a volatile region will probably not be dealt with lightly.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:52
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Vienna Circlejerk posted:On the other hand, a parole violation that results in 4 deaths and strains US diplomatic relations in a volatile region will probably not be dealt with lightly.
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Sep 13, 2012 16:57
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Remember the craziness over Pisschrist? Yes I do. So you want to keep people from dunking Mohammed in a pot of piss, but its ok to do it to an image of Christ, because Christians aren't as dangerous/impulsive as Muslims? Where do you draw the line? Is it ok or not to film poorly made trash talking movies about Mormons, Moonies, Scientologists, or followers of the Church of the SubGenius? Seems like doublethink on both 'sides' to me. Well, most people tend to like the concept of free speech until someone says something they really disagree with, so I guess its really more of a human failing than a liberal/conservative thing.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:01
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Here's another feel-good thing to put alongside those pro-American demonstrators: a little interfaith solidarity. Considering the guy behind the film, it's good that Egyptian Copts are making an effort to distinguish themselves from the less-reasonable element.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:05
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kylejack posted:Oh, he's still on parole? Yeah, they can definitely clip him on that. I guess it's technically probation since it was part of the sentencing? But yeah. time.com posted:Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer. Something tells me his probation officer didn't approve this.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:06
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http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/09/a-diplomat-in-the-real-and-virtual-world.html Dunno if you guys saw it yet but Vile Rat is on The Dish now.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:07
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meristem posted:Would it be possible to try him for inciting to violence? Does the US have relevant laws? If not, then maybe in some international court? There is only a very limited number of crimes under international law. Even in theory I think one would be hard pressed to find that a video (or a chain of them) inciting to violence would be even near enough. Add a dose of practice, and unless you are a State leader inciting genocide you are pretty much home free. Even if you are a State leader inciting a genocide you are in most cases safe from any form of prosecution.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:08
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Baddog posted:Yes I do. So you want to keep people from dunking Mohammed in a pot of piss, but its ok to do it to an image of Christ, because Christians aren't as dangerous/impulsive as Muslims? Where do you draw the line? Is it ok or not to film poorly made trash talking movies about Mormons, Moonies, Scientologists, or followers of the Church of the SubGenius? I look at it this way: We are still in a very volatile situation with the Middle East, and may be for some time. Now is not the time to create incredibly inflammatory videos about countries we are trying to get on our side. Does this mean not express your opinion? No, there are many other ways they could express their opinion that would not have been as nearly as inflammatory. I'd treat it like a violent situation you are personally involved in. Can you say something that would upset your attacker more? Of course, freedom of speech! Might they get even more violent? Yep. So should you be careful what you say and when you say. Surely.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:08
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HMDK posted:Yes. What? What does a false narrative of equivalency have to do with how you probably shouldn't be ending relationships with your friends and relatives because they don't your ideologies don't perfectly align? Learn to talk to people you disagree with, y'all.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:14
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SilentD posted:http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/09/a-diplomat-in-the-real-and-virtual-world.html
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Sep 13, 2012 17:18
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The Asian Oprah posted:What? What does a false narrative of equivalency have to do with how you probably shouldn't be ending relationships with your friends and relatives because they don't your ideologies don't perfectly align? Well, yeah, but that didn't really seem to be your point. Sorry. But I'd also suggest that no one should ever fight for a family already split.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:20
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BootStrap posted:I have to wonder though, what could a consulate in Libya have that is so important to protect? Almost assuredly they have already switched codes and ciphers as they may have been compromised. Hypothetically: It could have contained information that would identify all the American safe houses in the area. Not to mention documents that would compromise US agents and officials working throughout the region. You may remember the security concerns raised when Wikileaks released their trove of State department memos - and those were significantly out of date. Or as has been suggested, it could have contained covert intelligence files. In any case, destroying those documents and protecting American lives and state secrets would have been the priority of both Smith (as IT officer) and Stephens (as ambassador). The Asian Oprah posted:Once I heard Rush Limbaugh advise a woman to cut off ties completely with her family because they would talk about politics at the dinner table and it made her uncomfortable because they were vaguely democratic leaning. It's just as dumb and antisocial an idea when you suggest it I'm not suggesting cutting off ties with someone for talking about politics at the dinner table; I'm saying that anyone who immediately turns the deaths of four Americans (including one whom I've known for years) into bullshit Facebook sloganeering is not someone that I'd want to have any contact with. So put away your equivalency crap. edit: Including a drat FYAD troll like you. Good grief man. /ignored Kaal fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 17:21
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The Asian Oprah posted:Learn to talk to people you disagree with, y'all. I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing the irony of anti-war/pro-diplomacy leftists advocating severing communications over ideological differences. An engagement strategy to be emulated. az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 17:23
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CommieGIR posted:I look at it this way: This was brought up earlier in the thread--folks need to keep in mind that this isn't just a freedom of speech issue that's existing in a vacuum. Here, this guy said it well: DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Trying to discuss this issue as one of pure speech and provocation, assuming that all the people involved are equally powerful and on a level playing field (a political theory version of a "white room fight" maybe) is pretty blinkered. The fact is that whatever proximate cause the violence had, the ultimate cause of this attack has to do with imperialism. Trying to have a discussion of the speech and reaction to it without taking into account the context of "our" frequent military misadventures (our own laughable xhosa girls) and constant attempts to dominate the region has produced a goofy and pointless discussion.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:25
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The Asian Oprah posted:This was brought up earlier in the thread--folks need to keep in mind that this isn't just a freedom of speech issue that's existing in a vacuum. Here, this guy said it well: That makes sense, thank you for re-posting.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:27
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kylejack posted:It has to be a call to action, like a call to go kill people, and even then it can be considered protected speech under certain circumstances. Like, talking about overthrowing the government is considered a political opinion, even though it would involve killing people. Welp, Fighting Words fits in pretty much perfectly.
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Sep 13, 2012 17:28
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Some pictures from an anti-terrorism protest in Tripoli: http://naziha10.tumblr.com/post/31457278125/rip-chris-stevens-protest-to-condemn-the-violent  
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Sep 13, 2012 17:28
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The Time article is really showing how hosed up things are. quote:The Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups, said Klein is a former Marine and longtime religious-right activist who has helped train paramilitary militias at a California church. It described Klein as founder of Courageous Christians United, which conducts protests outside abortion clinics, Mormon temples and mosques. The detective work being done to uncover the people who made the movie is really fascinating, but it would also be terrible if those people are killed by extremists and become martyrs for their own terrible causes.
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