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Pookerbacca posted:I think that is basically what I've been saying, fans are not to "blame" and were not the "cause" for this disaster. But some fans must have "contributed" to the chaos by just being there without a ticket....maybe it was just 5, 10, 24, I have no idea. I don't know why you keep saying this when the reports completely reject that idea. When the crush happened there were reportedly more than 3000 people in pens 3 and 4, which was over double the safe capacity. So are you saying there were over 1500 ticketless fans in there or what
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Sep 14, 2012 18:22
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Pookerbacca posted:I think that is basically what I've been saying, fans are not to "blame" and were not the "cause" for this disaster. But some fans must have "contributed" to the chaos by just being there without a ticket....maybe it was just 5, 10, 24, I have no idea. And as the report says, the effect of this handful of people is completely negligible. I agree that it's healthy to question any consensus, but what you're doing is just being an idiot contrarian. You're supposed to use your "brain" to "think" about whether a point is valid, not take up opposition on the off-chance it's wrong and refuse to budge.
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Sep 14, 2012 18:24
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Haha "healthy perspective", gently caress off, I have no patience for this poo poo
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Sep 14, 2012 18:25
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Bringing up an insignificant factor = being a contrarian... And implying the media's outcry at a 23 year old smear campaign and cover up by the government isn't healthy... Baffling. Just baffling.
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Sep 14, 2012 18:30
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The supporters on the day have been absolved of any role by 2 separate reports, the most recent of which brought to light hundreds of altered documents exposing a massive institutional coverup which involved the police, the media, and the government. HOWEVER, this guy has figured out a secret that 96 people who were crushed to death don't want you to know... Honestly what the gently caress.
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Sep 14, 2012 18:33
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Would have been nice if this had all been cleared up before the police module of the Leveson inquiry had wrapped up.
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Sep 14, 2012 18:33
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T. Mascis posted:HOWEVER, this guy has figured out a secret that 96 people who were crushed to death don't want you to know... Want to shift blame onto the REAL guilty party, the victim? Read this one weird old tip, discovered by a loving nutcase. Panels hate him!
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Sep 14, 2012 18:36
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T. Mascis posted:The supporters on the day have been absolved of any role by 2 separate reports, the most recent of which brought to light hundreds of altered documents exposing a massive institutional coverup which involved the police, the media, and the government. Clearly condensing 400000 documents into only 1/100 of that isn't detailed enough
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Sep 14, 2012 18:38
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Pookerbacca posted:My original post was just trying to say we should have a healthy perspective about this historical event, it cannot be just 100% this and 100% that.... so accordingly Pookerbacca posted:lets not kid ourselves that every single fan in the Leppings Lane End has got a "clear conscience" from that horrible day. ...Alrighty then!  irlZaphod posted:Also Sheffield Wednesday looked for compensation from the FA over lost revenue due to the semi-final being "cancelled" lmao are they loving serious. Yeah thats beyond shameful. I just hope the families and friends who fought so hard to have all this information released can put it to effective use and get all the cooperation they deserve.
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Sep 14, 2012 19:06
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Brian Reade made the point even before the report came out - I'm sure there were some dudes who showed up and had drank one or more beers. I'm sure someone turned up without having a ticket looking to blag or buy one. This is something that has happened at every football match ever played. It also happens at tennis matches (I personally know a dude who decided to shotgun eight cans of cider rather than have them confiscated by Wimbledon security). This also happens at the loving opera. If your argument is that the police report should read, "A DRUNK DUDE WAS THERE AND HE WAS SINGING WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO", literally all forms of human gathering should be banned. For the police's argument to hold weight, you have to basically accept that that they were essentially set upon by a baying mob, far above what could normally be expected in that situation, and were forced to take emergency measures, losing control of the situation. That was rejected by Taylor a long time ago. It was clear that they did take emergency measures, and they did lose control of the situation, but that was caused primarily by the multiple problems inherent in the design of the stand and turnstiles, and secondarily by inefficient police procedures.
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Sep 14, 2012 21:13
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Pookerbacca posted:We should have a healthy perspective about this historical event, it cannot be just 100% this and 100% that.... Let me take a shot in the dark here. Maybe you're inferring that it's 100% this and 100% that, when in actuality people have decided that the role of ticketless and drunken fans was so negligible that to ascribe even 1% of the blame is silly. Maybe people are talking about the 99.8% of blame that can be ascribed to organizations and not individuals. As others have said, the fact that it was a sunny day outside also contributed to the disaster, because it meant that people stayed outside longer because of the nice weather, and thus created more of a crush outside the turnstiles as they all tried to get in just before kickoff. When we blame the police, and not the weather, it's not that we have decided that the weather contributed exactly 0.00000% toward the disaster; it's that it could have happened on any day, and speculating about it is not at all useful for figuring out how to avoid another Hillsborough. When Grandma decides to celebrate her birthday the Saturday before and not the Tuesday of, you're apparently the twerp who goes, "But, Dad, why does her cake say 'Happy 80th Birthday' when she's only 79.9945?" And when your dad tells you to grab a plate and shut the gently caress up, you decide that this birthday party is just an example of "herd mentality" and you were just trying to lend a "healthy perspective" on the milestone your grandmother has not yet reached. As I said the first time: you're being uselessly contrarian.
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Sep 14, 2012 21:25
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FullLeatherJacket posted:Brian Reade made the point even before the report came out - I'm sure there were some dudes who showed up and had drank one or more beers. I'm sure someone turned up without having a ticket looking to blag or buy one. This is something that has happened at every football match ever played. It also happens at tennis matches (I personally know a dude who decided to shotgun eight cans of cider rather than have them confiscated by Wimbledon security). This also happens at the loving opera. If your argument is that the police report should read, "A DRUNK DUDE WAS THERE AND HE WAS SINGING WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO", literally all forms of human gathering should be banned. This makes a good point. A crowd identical to the one at hillsborough turned up to multiple games across the country every week. Either you accept that the police and ground were at fault or you cling to the idea, which two huge reports have dismissed, that the crowd that day was different to others.
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Sep 14, 2012 21:33
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Sheila Coleman has confirmed that she was a hacking victim, probably more of the JFT96 campaign as well.
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Sep 14, 2012 22:42
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:Sheila Coleman has confirmed that she was a hacking victim, probably more of the JFT96 campaign as well. In lighter news, there's a campaign to get You'll Never Walk Alone to #1. Gerry Marsden has apparently told Steve Rotheram that he'll donate all proceeds to Hillsborough charities. Go download it for 99p! http://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/youll-never-walk-alone/id18819819?i=18819710 irlZaphod fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 14, 2012 |
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Sep 14, 2012 22:52
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irlZaphod posted:Jesus loving Christ I honestly can't think of how it would play out if the Sun had been hacking them, which is what a lot of operation Tuleta is looking at.
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Sep 14, 2012 22:57
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Interesting choice of advert the Echo chose to run on its page today.
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Sep 14, 2012 23:56
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There's two petitions on the Liverpool City Council website asking for both Irvine Patnick and Norman Bettison to be stripped of their knighthoods as a consequence of the findings of the HIP if that interests anyone: http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=17&RPID=4231961&HPID=4231961 http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=19&RPID=4418111&HPID=4418111 (Hope this sort of stuff is okay to post here, if not I'll remove it.)
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Sep 15, 2012 01:57
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http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2012-09-13/video-1989-interview-with-south-yorkshire-police-federation/
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Sep 15, 2012 12:58
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c0burn posted:http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2012-09-13/video-1989-interview-with-south-yorkshire-police-federation/ I couldn't watch more than like 10 seconds of him talk lol I'm utterly seething
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Sep 15, 2012 15:40
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I never really knew much about Hillsborough as I didn't much care about football at the time, andI thought it was a bit to do with hooliganism. Not as much as the Sun said, because it's a paper of lies, but I found it impossible to believe that a police force would just make poo poo up wholesale about something like this. I could see them doing it about terrorism, with the guildford four and birmingham six. This is sickening though and heads need to roll for it, and for the 23 years of delays. People like Jack Straw should be called to account to see why they thought there was no need to reopen the inquest, it's a loving joke.
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Sep 15, 2012 16:00
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BBC and all and sundry are now reporting that the cover-up was long a subject of knowledge in government (of course it was, while the parties may change, the civil service does not cycle as frequently). It's only a microcosm as well. Think of every reference to a "victim mentality" or the like of the people of Liverpool from a politician in the last 20 years. They've said that, with more than likely more knowledge of the events of that day than anyone else had. Until now.
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Sep 15, 2012 21:00
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Got a link to the BBC or anywhere else reporting that?
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Sep 15, 2012 21:02
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19610226 If the CPS knew, it was definitely discussed in corridors.
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Sep 15, 2012 21:08
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United have officially condemned the Hillsborough chanting from todays game, from what I heard from my mate that went he said it was a tiny group of morons, but still distasteful.
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Sep 15, 2012 21:09
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The Clit Avoider posted:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19610226 I want everyones head to roll. This is loving disgusting
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Sep 15, 2012 21:18
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irlZaphod posted:Jesus loving Christ The one thing I've ever been jealous of Liverpool for is having a song this good, right behind this.
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Sep 15, 2012 21:32
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Seems some Man Utd fans on twitter have tried to say the hillsborough "Always the victims, its never your fault" songs were aimed at Suarez
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Sep 15, 2012 21:48
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Scott Bakula posted:Seems some Man Utd fans on twitter have tried to say the hillsborough "Always the victims, its never your fault" songs were aimed at Suarez Even if they were, it still seems a ridiculously stupid thing to be singing because it was always going to be misconstrued, especially considering they weren't even playing Liverpool.
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Sep 15, 2012 21:53
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Thats also ignoring using victims when referring to a single person
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Sep 15, 2012 22:22
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That's like a Liverpool fan singing a song about Munich and then saying "But I was just referring to that recent time when Bayern knocked United out of the Champions League". Absolute idiocy and they're insane if they think anyone's going to buy it.
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Sep 15, 2012 23:33
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quote:like a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn’t there - David Cameron, describing the families of the victims of Hillsborough and the supporters of the Justice for the 96 campaign, 2011. Prick
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Sep 16, 2012 09:17
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That's not even his line, it's a quote
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Sep 16, 2012 09:49
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Scott Bakula posted:Seems some Man Utd fans on twitter have tried to say the hillsborough "Always the victims, its never your fault" songs were aimed at Suarez All that said, given the timing it could & should be interpreted as being aimed at what happened at Hillborough. I'm pretty sure at least some of those singing had it in mind, and even if they didn't you'd think people would have the slightest bit of common sense just to keep their mouths shut. Its a loving stupid chant sung by a loving stupid minority of people at a really loving stupid time.
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Sep 16, 2012 12:49
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Gene Ricman posted:It also ties into the bullshit belief that people from Liverpool have a 'victim mentality' which Boris Johnson shat out of his mouth in the Spectator a while back. Sorry to hack your post down to just this section, but it's the most relevant part. That in essence, is the complete problem with the chant. The "victim mentality" of Liverpool is, in no small part, down to Hillsborough. The working classes were bullied under Thatcher and her brood for her reign. I doubt you'll find anyone in the North of England or Scotland who isn't a toff or one of the unscrupulous traders that made a fortune off of her policies that has a kind word to say about her. The only difference between the vast majority of Liverpudlians and elsewhere is that the other places didn't have shows like Bread or Boys from the Black Stuff made about them. And Hillsborough. And when it turns out that, guess what, people from Liverpool were the victims all along, both of incompetent policing and a despicable policy of deceit, then it ceases to be a "victim mentality". I know you, quite correctly, pointed out it's a bullshit belief. But the fact is, that belief is inextricably linked to Hillsborough and as such, anything playing on it is too.
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Sep 16, 2012 18:50
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Gene Ricman posted:It at didnt start off as a Hillborough chant at least. I know some of our fans started singing it around the time of the Suarez-Evra nonsense - specifically after the t-shirts supporting Suarez were worn. It started among Man-U fans as a retaliation for the Munich chants some Liverpool fans were fond of and it's meant to refer to Hillsborough and Heysel. You can stretch it to cover the Evra/Suarez incident, but that chant has been around for a very long time and those are the origins for it. I don't think the Everton fans co-opted the chant as a dig as Hillsborough (or at least I hope not) since it's kind of digging at themselves too. Given the anti-Scouser bias that you guys have pointed out and how Liverpool can never really own up to Heysel, the chant will probably be there forever whether we like it or not. Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 19:06
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TyChan posted:I don't think the Everton fans co-opted the chant as a dig as Hillsborough (or at least I hope not) since it's kind of digging at themselves too. [edit]Every year on the anniversary the media seem pleasantly surprised and applauding that there's Everton scarves and wreaths on the memorial gates or that the EFC club shop has a shirt with the number "96" on the back in the window. There's no football divide over Hillsborough for Liverpudlians. Hoops fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 19:12
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Hoops posted:No way Everton fans sing Hillsborough songs, never. The "victim" thing is very much aimed at "scousers", grouping them all together without specifying "Liverpool fans". Plenty of Everton fans know someone who either died or is related to someone that died at Hillsborough. I've read match reports from fans saying that younger Everton fans do some cheer where they pretend like they're getting crushed against a fence, but I'm not sure how widespread that actually is since every fan group has some people willing to do very stupid things in an effort to get under other club's fans' skins.
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Sep 16, 2012 19:16
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TyChan posted:I've read match reports from fans saying that younger Everton fans do some cheer where they pretend like they're getting crushed against a fence, but I'm not sure how widespread that actually is since every fan group has some people willing to do very stupid things in an effort to get under other club's fans' skins. I always wonder why Sheffield residents never get talked about in Hillsborough conversations too, come to think of it. Hoops fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 19:23
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The Clit Avoider posted:The working classes were bullied under Thatcher and her brood for her reign. I doubt you'll find anyone in the North of England or Scotland who isn't a toff or one of the unscrupulous traders that made a fortune off of her policies that has a kind word to say about her. My dad's from Middlesbrough and he voted for Thatcher. He's not an unscrupulous trader and he hasn't got a fortune but I guess he must be a toff? I'll let him know.
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Sep 16, 2012 20:17
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hermyownee posted:My dad's from Middlesbrough and he voted for Thatcher. He's not an unscrupulous trader and he hasn't got a fortune but I guess he must be a toff? I'll let him know. Lots of voters are stupid, more at 11. Also how did he vote for Thatcher? She wasn't Middlesbrough's MP. Unless he moved to Finchley in which case in that neck of the woods, yeah, she might well have been the "preferred" option. Ninpo fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 20:38
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