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I just had a big group of anti-Japanese protestors go by the place I work in Hangzhou. Alot of my co-workers (alot of them young people in their early 20s who are completely ignorant of anything political) are all in on the anti-Japanese rage. So ridiculous. Fake edit: I read a blog and some weibo posts that made a nice point: When you destroy those cars, you aren't hurting the Japanese, you are hurting your fellow citizens you bought those cars. Seriously, there was even a picture on weibo of a woman crying. She took part in an anti-Japanese protest and then later found out that her Japanese-made car had been vandalized. God people are stupid. DaiJiaTeng fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 07:06
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DaiJiaTeng posted:Fake edit: I read a blog and some weibo posts that made a nice point: When you destroy those cars, you aren't hurting the Japanese, you are hurting your fellow citizens you bought those cars.
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Sep 16, 2012 07:14
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ReindeerF posted:I lived through a similar period in America in the 1990s and it was stupid then, too. I mean there were maybe some valid points about international trade and dumping, but mostly it was a bunch of American-made cars with Japanese badges getting destroyed by redneck auto-workers. It didn't get this widespread, though, in property damage terms. There were a lot more staged "come beat up a Japanese car with a sledgehammer!" public events than out of control riots. Yeah, the US navy wasn't playing chicken off the coast of Japan, because they were taking a nap in Yokosuka. Anyway, the Chinese leadership needs something to distract people if export growth continues to drop or even decline. Nothing like a scapegoat and some rocks to fight over to distract people, and since they got tired of pushing Vietnam and the Philippines around it was time to move over to Japan. Pity they do quite a bit of trade with Japan. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 07:16
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China: We Hate Japan, Will Continue To Act More And More Like Imperial Japan. I talked about it before in the SE Asia thread, but their approach to all of this has been colossally stupid. They're managing to piss off so much of Asia that there's not going to be much left to work with at this rate. Of course their money and heft will buy back a lot of good will, but they're pissing it away over zero substantive gain.
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Sep 16, 2012 07:26
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I think it's all stupid, but to be fair, Japan is also pushing this thing. Japan also had some territorial disputes with Russia and Korea recently, and kind of failed with those. I think Japan needs a victory and at the same time might want to distract people. So, China isn't the only one guilty of using this for political gain/distraction. It would be in China's best interests to not get into a dispute now, while it's in Japan's interest to push China into this. Alot of analysts have said the longer that they wait to settle this dispute, the more the balanace tips in China's favor. I think in reality, China would have preferred to wait, but Japan has to press it now if it wants a chance at winning. To be completely honest I could be wrong (and I am open to being corrected), but that's one of the perspectives I've seen discussed alot, and it does make sense. Regardless, A Sino-Japanese war would just be a disaster and I really hope that something like that doesn't happen.
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Sep 16, 2012 07:44
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ReindeerF posted:I lived through a similar period in America in the 1990s and it was stupid then, too. I mean there were maybe some valid points about international trade and dumping, but mostly it was a bunch of American-made cars with Japanese badges getting destroyed by redneck auto-workers. It didn't get this widespread, though, in property damage terms. There were a lot more staged "come beat up a Japanese car with a sledgehammer!" public events than out of control riots. Fun fact: There's a whole little growing side industry now to mod the badges over to domestic brands  Daduzi posted:None that didn't come direct from CCTV at least. Are you denying that the state-run media has had a major hand in whipping up this hysteria? That's pretty laughable. Might as well say that ourgae from 911 in the US was all government propaganda. It's kinda sorta a big deal here especially because it's Japan. And the real risk diplomatically is that people will start to realize that only reason all these island disputes are happening now is because of US fuckery (which is 100% true). Pro-PRC Laowai fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 10:16
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:Fun fact: There's a whole little growing side industry now to mod the badges over to domestic brands The guy who set fire to his own Honda Civic supposedly is getting a free car from BYD as a show of national solidarity. This is funny on the following levels: - He's replacing a Honda Civic with a BYD.  - BYD's best selling car, the F3, is on the outside such an exact copy of the Toyota Corolla that body panels are interchangable. - BYD dealers usually offered to replace the BYD badge with a Toyota badge on the spot when you bought the car.
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Sep 16, 2012 10:41
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DaiJiaTeng posted:
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Sep 16, 2012 10:59
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Modus Operandi posted:It would be disastrous but also darkly comical. Japanese has a negative something birthrate and a rapidly aging population. Japan can't afford to waste young men for an all out hypothetical and silly war it would cripple their economy. China has way too much men but probably will still get beat down by Japan's technologically superior "defensive" military. The net result would be two nations loving themselves over rocks in the sea. Yeah, which is why it would be in China's best interest to wait until they have the upper-hand. Which means Japan is going to force them to move or back-down. The other thing: imagine the nationalist fury the CCP would have to deal with if they lost in a war with Japan. The angry youth would flip their poo poo.
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Sep 16, 2012 11:43
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ReindeerF posted:China: We Hate Japan, Will Continue To Act More And More Like Imperial Japan. South China Sea disputes are not the same as Diaoyu Island. None of the southeast countries have a nval force that can remote contest it with China. Its just a matter of how much China want the US to get involve. China and Japan's naval and air force are much closer match. Plus this is a COLONIAL issue. It touches China's inferiority complex. Its a card beijing has used and will use frequently to rally patriotism and reflect internal conflicts. Plus its a right time to escalate it. The US has no spear hand to worry over stupid rock dispute when poo poo is going down in Middle East. The Japanese right wing extremists shouldn't bring this up in the first place.
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Sep 16, 2012 12:35
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Ardennes posted:Anyway, the Chinese leadership needs something to distract people if export growth continues to drop or even decline. Nothing like a scapegoat and some rocks to fight over to distract people Seems like a dangerous game. Once the rabble get a taste for being roused, I'd think that's a fire you could have more trouble putting out than you think, and could burn in unpredictable directions. Dangerous for a country that has been trying to navigate a tricky path between economic growth and keeping a tight lid on political control and freedom of expression. Handing a bunch of young men rocks and torches and telling them "go to town" (on these guys, over here) seems like it could blow up in ways that aren't too hard to envision.
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Sep 16, 2012 13:35
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Remember WWII and Pre WWI China? What most of you, as outsiders, have to understand is that the Chinese feel that they have been victimized and bullied for the last century. Now that they have the ability to hit back, they are going to take every opportunity they can to regain their lost pride. Its not just a simple case of forgive and forget. This sense of victimization has been part of the national identity for decades. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to describe the Chinese view of Japan's war crimes as similar to the Jewish view of the holocaust, albeit with a far more irrational need for vengeance on the Chinese part. Fortunately or unfortunately, the vast majority of US commentators are just incapable of understanding the reasoning behind this irrational bloodlust, simply because the USA has always been strong. It has never been the victim, and its people have never been persecuted or destroyed on such a massive scale. If a Sino-Japanese war does break out, it will be a very popular one with the full backing of the Chinese people.
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Sep 16, 2012 14:01
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whatever7 posted:Plus its a right time to escalate it. The US has no spear hand to worry over stupid rock dispute when poo poo is going down in Middle East. I really hope that people in China don't actually think this. The US Navy is plenty of spear hand, and we're fully capable of worrying about stupid rock disputes.
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Sep 16, 2012 14:33
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Gormless Gormster posted:Remember WWII and Pre WWI China? What most of you, as outsiders, have to understand is that the Chinese feel that they have been victimized and bullied for the last century. Now that they have the ability to hit back, they are going to take every opportunity they can to regain their lost pride. Its not just a simple case of forgive and forget. This sense of victimization has been part of the national identity for decades. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to describe the Chinese view of Japan's war crimes as similar to the Jewish view of the holocaust, albeit with a far more irrational need for vengeance on the Chinese part. Fortunately or unfortunately, the vast majority of US commentators are just incapable of understanding the reasoning behind this irrational bloodlust, simply because the USA has always been strong. It has never been the victim, and its people have never been persecuted or destroyed on such a massive scale. If a Sino-Japanese war does break out, it will be a very popular one with the full backing of the Chinese people. We do understand, but we also know that those feelings are inculcated by the way history is taught and news and entertainment is presented, all with total government control. There have been many countries that fought bitter wars full of pain and rage that aren't now stupidly braying for war over a pair of rocks. It's been sixty years since WWII. Some peoples have moved on, and some haven't. The whys are in the details, and in China the details are a long list of manipulative policies designed for this end. Chinese babies aren't born hating Japan. Some of the words you're using are familiar. The Chinese aren't the only ones with irrational revanchist hatreds, and they aren't the only ones with apologists either. That "outsiders can't understand how we feel" line is a convenient excuse for terrible behavior that has, ironically, been used many times by many people. I don't doubt that a lot of them believed they were unique. I have no doubt at all that the Chinese believe they are unique in their pain because it's an error they make in practically every interaction with the outside world but for students of history this is classic revanchist nationalism. And it is inculcated. We have to be absolutely clear about that. It's no coincidence that you see people calling for war over two rocky islets with words like, "We must remember our national shame; never again!" when they were educated in a system that teaches a whole century under the label "100 Years of Shame" It's no accident that Chinese people interpret every event through the lens of victimization, because they've been taught that they are victims. It's not surprising that 2,000 Chinese students tried to get into the American Consulate in Chengdu today, over issues with the Japanese, because they've been taught to conflate China's (former) enemies into one boogeyman who loves nothing so much as to hurt the feelings of the Chinese people. Sure, these feelings are real, but do they excuse the recent behavior of the Chinese? Of course not. Feeling victimized doesn't excuse vandalism any more than feeling insulted excuses murder. What's more damning to me is that I think these feelings clearly originated outside the average Chinese anti-Japan protestor. That's why you have this incredibly stupid behavior like torching cars and then crying because your car got torched. Or doing violence over a tiny pair of islands that these people will never see and which will have no impact on their lives. These kinds of bizarre acts tend to arise, in my experience, when people don't understand their own beliefs, and generally that means they adopted those beliefs from outside. And with all the obvious propaganda, it's not hard to see where those beliefs come from. I'm sure Pro-PRC Laowai will jump all over this, but I see this as 100% a phenomenon of the Communist government, created by the government for its own ends. (Fortunately, that's why I'm so unconcerned about a real war breaking out. This is all psychodrama unless the central government suddenly goes insane.) Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 14:50
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Warcabbit posted:I really hope that people in China don't actually think this. The US Navy is plenty of spear hand, and we're fully capable of worrying about stupid rock disputes. US also need China help on QE3. It's not going to go to war. We are talking about how much US willing to pressure Japan in exchange for UN support in Middle East.
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Sep 16, 2012 15:10
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DaiJiaTeng posted:I think it's all stupid, but to be fair, Japan is also pushing this thing. Well since you asked, this is actually wrong. The recent trigger for increasingly belligerent Chinese reporting on the issue is that the Japanese government bought the islands. The detail that usually fails to make it into the Chinese account is that the Japanese government bought the islands to prevent the private owners from beginning development. Developing disputed land is considered a way to strengthen a claim, which is why China is doing exactly that in the Huangyan islands. Obviously it's an aggressive move from the perspective of the other side in the dispute. So what really happened is the Japanese government stepped in with a legal way to stop the "owners" of the disputed land from escalating the conflict. Naturally the nuance was completely lost in the Chinese state media, which I'm sure was an accident. They certainly don't have an hour of mandated nationwide coverage every night to explain something at that level of detail. I'd be interested to hear why the Americans are implicated in stirring up the Senkaku/Diaoyu dispute. From what I've heard it seems more like State has been bending over backwards trying to make impartial non-statements and we're sort of busy with an election and a war-and-a-half already. whatever7 posted:US also need China help on QE3. I don't think that is the case. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 15:11
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whatever7 posted:US also need China help on QE3. It's not going to go to war. We are talking about how much US willing to pressure Japan in exchange for UN support in Middle East. Never underestimate the willingness of the US to go to war over the stupidest poo poo. We've gone to war over people's ears and stolen pigs. And why do you think China is the key to UN support in the middle east? At worst, all they can do is veto things, putting them right next to Russia, while the rest of the world clamors for help. And, given the current situation, even in the most extreme possible opposite case, if China decided to be the US's lackey as a quid pro quo for the islands, we'd still have Russia vetoing everything. It's not like China can control the popular mood in the Middle East, or the opinion of the UN. And it's not like the US is limited by the UN in any real way. It'd be nice to have that sort of thing, but if the only sticking point is China in some hypothetical issue, I can certainly see the US going it alone or with allies, without UN support. Now, I'm not saying I approve of this, but you have to be realistic here. China needs the US at least as much as the US needs China. You can't really leverage either way without screwing yourself over at the same time. Basically, the US is perfectly capable of being the crazy person with guns, and you should never really count that out. It's not probable at this moment, but it's never outside the realm of possibility. Especially when you consider history and how WWI got started. We're tangled in with Japan with the same sort of treaties. Warcabbit fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 15:31
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US go to war to secure long term strategy resource (oil, canal etc) or go to war to ensure the domination of US dollar. Do you actually believe US go to war over people's ears and stolen pigs?
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Sep 16, 2012 16:16
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pig_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Jenkins%27_Ear To be precise, the War of Jenkins' Ear happened before the War of Independence. We never went to war over canals though. We bought the Panama Canal Zone from the French and our diplomats actually prevented a war over the Suez Canal. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 16:23
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I really don't think you can compare the zany Great game empire geopolitics of the past when leaders were willing to throw their entire populations into million man meat grinders with today's much more reserved conservative approach.
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Sep 16, 2012 16:51
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Arglebargle III posted:We never went to war over canals though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Invasion But yeah I have no idea how open hostilities between US and China would turn out. China has the industrial base but not as much consumer demand. We have most of the consumer demand but we've outsourced our manufacturing.
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Sep 16, 2012 17:15
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Arglebargle III posted:It's not surprising that 2,000 Chinese students tried to get into the American Consulate in Chengdu today, over issues with the Japanese Perhaps. Or maybe they all just wanted to defect and offer details of high level corruption instead. It'll be interesting to see how the government tries to quell the unrest. Protests against an external foe are well and good, but if there's one thing the government hates, it's disorder. How can you control the people if you just let them go wild?
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Sep 16, 2012 17:20
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McDowell posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Invasion We didn't go to war to take the canal. Still, derp.  Open hostilities between the U.S. and China would turn out very badly. We're both nuclear powers which if precedent is any guide pretty much guarantees there will be no war. It helps that there's virtually no upside to either side to getting into a conflict over some ridiculous island dispute. The only plausible scenarios for us getting into a real war require the Chinese to make a huge gamble that the U.S. won't intervene, and make that gamble for meager rewards. They haven't done it in Taiwan for 60 years, and that's the biggest prize in the whole region. So why would they do it for the pathetically tiny Huangyan or Diaoyu?
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Sep 16, 2012 17:39
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whatever7 posted:Do you actually believe US go to war over people's ears and stolen pigs? I made those examples on purpose. I'm surprised someone else knew of the pig war, it's one of my favorite little oddities. But, more seriously, the US will also go to war to honor its commitment in a treaty, because to do otherwise will mean that other countries won't honor theirs to us. Seriously, read how World War I started over the assassination of a duke. So yes, it _could_ happen. I doubt it will, but you really should understand history shows people behaved in the past, before you make assertions like that.
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Sep 16, 2012 17:43
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Warcabbit posted:So yes, it _could_ happen. I doubt it will, but you really should understand history shows people behaved in the past, before you make assertions like that. Well an analogue would be the obligations to Poland being sacrificed to avoid a war with the USSR after WWII. edit: vvv Better example Bates fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 17:54
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There's also the case of Georgia's recent war with Russia.
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Sep 16, 2012 17:59
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Zwabu posted:Seems like a dangerous game. Once the rabble get a taste for being roused, I'd think that's a fire you could have more trouble putting out than you think, and could burn in unpredictable directions. Dangerous for a country that has been trying to navigate a tricky path between economic growth and keeping a tight lid on political control and freedom of expression. Handing a bunch of young men rocks and torches and telling them "go to town" (on these guys, over here) seems like it could blow up in ways that aren't too hard to envision. Hey, I didn't up with this plan or a approve of it, I am just saying they probably have an economic motivation for this thing, not that it was a good idea. Anyway, the emotional ties the Chinese people have to the islands are understandable, so is the fact that the government has openly used them for their own purposes. Personally, I think it is a sign that the Chinese government is becoming more desperate, and I think you're right that controlled protest can lead to uncontrolled protest. Honestly, I don't see Japan gaining much from this particular issue, they own the islands and the government bought them in a effort to stabilize the situation. Obviously, it didn't stabilize things because the Chinese government wants an unstable political situation to keep the protests going. The US almost certainly isn't going to fight a war over this because it is obviously a created event to get people in China worked up at home. The US fights wars in which it can at least theoretically gain something out of them, even if those reasons really aren't in any way honorable. Sure, if China actually started to shoot up some Japanese ships we would get involved (with hesitation) but the Chinese government isn't going to do that because they know wars are bad news for a country reliant on exports and things are bad trade wise already. It is something that "could" happen but at such odds it isn't worth mentioning, talking about or debating. Also, the Fed needing China for q3 is ridiculous, has anyone checked out US bond yields lately? Sounds like something someone picked off of FNC. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Sep 16, 2012 |
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Sep 16, 2012 18:39
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Anosmoman posted:Well an analogue would be the obligations to Poland being sacrificed to avoid a war with the USSR after WWII. I was thinking more about our treaties with Japan. Their military is, ha, the 'Self Defense Force', and we have obligations to aid them, since, in theory, they don't actually have a military. If things get hairy, we might not be able to not engage, if you dig. Anyone have the actual details on our obligations?
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Sep 16, 2012 21:07
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Warcabbit posted:I was thinking more about our treaties with Japan. Their military is, ha, the 'Self Defense Force', and we have obligations to aid them, since, in theory, they don't actually have a military. If there is a war between Japan and China, and America is not involved and on the side of Japan, then it's literally light's out for America. We might as well get the hell out of Korea, withdraw from NATO and every other treaty we have, because it will be obvious to the world that our word means absolutely nothing. Japan is the de facto ally in Asia that we would defend at all cost. It's the basis of all of America's post WWII presence in Asia. Also, two nuclear countries have never been in a "hot" war, but they sure as hell can be in a cold war and multiple proxy wars all over the globe. Look at the activities of GI Joe and Cobra in the late 80's and early 90's. Finally, blaming the Chinese government or culture or educational system as the reason why Chinese people hate Japan is a little short sighted. Basically everyone in Asia hates the Japanese--look at Korea. I've never met a Korean person who was even "OK" with Japan. If there was ever a Japan v. SK war, NK and SK would forget why they hated each other and reunite in a weekend. That's how much they hate Japan.
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Sep 16, 2012 21:53
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Vladimir Putin posted:If there is a war between Japan and China, and America is not involved and on the side of Japan, then it's literally light's out for America. We might as well get the hell out of Korea, withdraw from NATO and every other treaty we have, because it will be obvious to the world that our word means absolutely nothing. Japan is the de facto ally in Asia that we would defend at all cost. It's the basis of all of America's post WWII presence in Asia. If PLA's landing boats are washing up on Okinawa, then for sure, but join in direct conflict for a piece of rock like Senkaku? (As opposed to advisors/logistical support/economic sanctions/issuing resolutions at the UN...) That's a tougher question. I suspect it'd depend on the particular administration, and the context of the conflict. If it's something Japan foolishly precipitated, then I expect a Georgia like situation where the US will make noises but be unwilling to escalate. If there's a more brazen act of aggression from the Chinese, then who knows.
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Sep 16, 2012 22:24
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Oh, no question that Japan is hated all over Asia. But I was curious what our actual obligations are. Anyone know?
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Sep 16, 2012 22:40
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I am more concerned about how this is going to affect the power transfer which, you know, is actually going to happen unlike a war. Does this mean that the new administration is going to have come into office trumpeting a hard line? How is that going to stand next to the economic renewal they are expected to bring? This whole thing just seems to make things very awkward for the standing committee. Unless of course they flip the switch after the 18th and it all goes away. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Sep 17, 2012 |
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Sep 17, 2012 00:07
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Pro-PRC Laowai posted:That's pretty laughable. Might as well say that ourgae from 911 in the US was all government propaganda. Yeah, this isn't remotely the same as 9/11 but regardless, if the US government controlled all of the TV news stations, and all that the news stations showed was stories designed to whip people up into a frenzy about 9/11 then, yeah, I'd be saying that government propaganda had a major role to play on popular sentiment. Have you even turned CCTV on in the past week or so? Or opened a copy of People's Daily? If the government didn't want to whip people up into an anti-Japanese frenzy why would they focus on Diaoyu every other story? It's absurdly naive or disingenuous to try to claim the siren atmosphere hasn't been fueled by the state-run media. If the government didn't want to make everyone focus on Japan then Diaoyu would have received the same amount of media attention as Xi's back injury.
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Sep 17, 2012 00:47
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Fangz posted:If PLA's landing boats are washing up on Okinawa, then for sure, but join in direct conflict for a piece of rock like Senkaku? (As opposed to advisors/logistical support/economic sanctions/issuing resolutions at the UN...) That's a tougher question. I suspect it'd depend on the particular administration, and the context of the conflict. If it's something Japan foolishly precipitated, then I expect a Georgia like situation where the US will make noises but be unwilling to escalate. If there's a more brazen act of aggression from the Chinese, then who knows. I think Japan's relationship with the US is tighter than the Georgia-US alliance. For one, the US was incapable of even helping Georgia if it wanted to. On the other hand, the US has tons of bases and troops stationed in Japan. If Japan and China get into a hot war over the islands, I expect that the US would lead peace talks but clearly be on Japan's side. There would definitely be a reluctance to send troops, but I can see the US providing maybe behind the scene support (maybe intelligence and logistics). Edit: Also the UN would probably go nowhere because both China and the US are on the security council. They would just veto everything.
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Sep 17, 2012 00:55
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I talked with my ex-girlfriend in Shaoxing and she told me about the Diaoyu/Senkaku Island tensions being fanned by the state media. She said that she and everyone at her job was told that if any of them are caught using Japanese products, they will be fired. For what it's worth, she knows that this is all nationalist bullshit that serves no real purpose. I know that this issue has been a sticking point for a couple of months now, but is there any particular reason why protests and demonstrations are happening today?
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Sep 17, 2012 03:55
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Warcabbit posted:Oh, no question that Japan is hated all over Asia. But I was curious what our actual obligations are. Anyone know? It was answered a couple of posts up but the US-Japanese Alliance is so central to our position in Asia and the Pacific that it would be unthinkable that we didn't give Japan every thing they asked for if it came to a shooting war between them and anybody else for any reason short of Japan going crazy, building nukes and using them.
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Sep 17, 2012 04:03
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Y-Hat posted:I know that this issue has been a sticking point for a couple of months now, but is there any particular reason why protests and demonstrations are happening today? Mukden Incident?
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Sep 17, 2012 04:21
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Vladimir Putin posted:Finally, blaming the Chinese government or culture or educational system as the reason why Chinese people hate Japan is a little short sighted. Basically everyone in Asia hates the Japanese--look at Korea. Japan raped its way across pretty much all of Asia, but in China and Korea specifically the wounds have been kept fresh as a matter of policy. Some of the countries occupied and devastated by Japan actually lean pro-Japan, such as the Philippines and Taiwan.
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Sep 17, 2012 04:29
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Warcabbit posted:Oh, no question that Japan is hated all over Asia. But I was curious what our actual obligations are. Anyone know? Thailand is pretty OK with them (relatively light-handed WW2 occupation, lots of FDI from Japan into manufacturing), and I think Cambodia has bigger and more recent historical demons to deal with. I've never seen/heard anyone in Laos talk poo poo, and while Vietnam got dicked over I think they hate China a hell of a lot more.
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Sep 17, 2012 04:37
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Lemmi Caution posted:Some of the countries occupied and devastated by Japan actually lean pro-Japan, such as the Philippines and Taiwan. I'm not referring to the crazy Taiwanese green party nativist folks who would throw their lot in with literally anyone as long as they agree with the calls for independence.
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Sep 17, 2012 04:38
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