|
Russell William Thorpe posted:I do know that BIENVENIDOS A CUBA is now the top thing on Venezuelan Twitter The kind of people who have internet in Venezuela aren't exactly the people who voted for Chavez though. Honestly, I think it's a shame that Chavez won, but in part this is because I'm not really convinced that Chavez's vision is necessarily the right vision for a socialist country (it reeks of strong-man populism rather than offering a genuine alternative to a exploitative capitalist system). Of course, Capriles wouldn't have brought this on either, so...
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:03 |
|
|
# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:23 |
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:The kind of people who have internet in Venezuela aren't exactly the people who voted for Chavez though. Has a right-wing leader in Central/South America ever lead to good things?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:05 |
|
The media has been really effective though, many people are posting condolences to their Venezuelan friends and ranting about the evil communist dictator. These are random people on a news story comments so they probably are the kind of people who read only headlines and get outraged. An actual Venezuelan friend is taking this with cautious uncertainty. I don't really know enough about the situation to have a worthwhile opinion but if Capriles is really a capitalist puppet then maybe Chavez is a good choice. El Hefe I'm interested in your thoughts about this.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:05 |
|
ekuNNN posted:I hear he helped the poor a lot but "he's bad for the economy". Really? I hear "he's bad for democracy" and that's actually a valid concern.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:05 |
|
Must Love Dogs posted:A Chavez win is a good thing, if only for the number of apoplectic strokes the American foreign policy establishment will have over it. It's more firepower for Romney in the upcoming foreign policy debate than anything else, to be honest. Obama hasn't really been as aggressively anti-Venezuela as Bush was.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:06 |
|
Russell William Thorpe posted:Has a right-wing leader in Central/South America ever lead to good things? Short answer: no. Longer answer: How do you feel about torturing and massacring political dissidents?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:06 |
|
Must Love Dogs posted:Short answer: no. As a fetish or morally? Because in the latter case I'm against it.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:07 |
|
ekuNNN posted:I'm happy that Chavez won, but I feel I mostly hear propaganda about non-western countries, so am I right in being happy? My position is mostly based on taking the opposite of what I feel the news here wants us to think and being a socialist. I hear he helped the poor a lot but "he's bad for the economy". That's what I've heard from both camps of Venezuelan people. (The few that I have talked to abroad) The leftist think he's great ONLY because he's helped the poor so much. The people on the right HATE having to pay so much for electronics. That's the way I would sum it up.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:08 |
|
cgeq posted:Really? I hear "he's bad for democracy" and that's actually a valid concern. Well, the "bad for democracy" things we get here (in the Netherlands) about him are mostly just cult of personality stuff like his personal tv-show. But I'm betting that he still spends comparatively less on promoting himself than Obama (or any US president) does, for example.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:08 |
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:It's more firepower for Romney in the upcoming foreign policy debate than anything else, to be honest. Obama hasn't really been as aggressively anti-Venezuela as Bush was. The US backed an attempted coup against Chavez under Bush. You are setting the bar very high on this one. On the other hand, it's not counting the coup d'état that America helped shepherd in Ecuador, who was a Chavez ally.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:09 |
|
cgeq posted:Really? I hear "he's bad for democracy" and that's actually a valid concern. Not to mention the cult of personality he seems to have built up around himself. I think there are very legitimate complaints about Chavez, but his concrete achievements in poverty reduction do count for something significant, as does his observations on American imperialism (even if it's equally used for rhetorical purposes rather than legitimate criticism.)
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:10 |
|
Must Love Dogs posted:The US backed an attempted coup against Chavez under Bush. You are setting the bar very high on this one. I was more commenting that Romney will have ample room to use Venezuela as a talking point to bash Obama on now that a "foreign policy loss" (as far as Republicans are concerned) has entered the news cycle. "Why aren't you invading Venezuela or funding a coup like we did under Bush? You allowed an enemy of the US to get reelected!" I would be unsurprised if he pulled this, if only to win votes in Florida when he inevitably ties Chavez to Castro.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:12 |
|
ekuNNN posted:Well, the "bad for democracy" things we get here (in the Netherlands) about him are mostly just cult of personality stuff like his personal tv-show. But I'm betting that he still spends comparatively less on promoting himself than Obama (or any US president) does, for example. Oh most definitely. And I'm not worried about State-Owned media. I've seen what private media can do in the US and I am extremely discontent about it. Meanwhile, NPR (non-profit) is one the best media outlets which we have (by best I mean objective/fair)
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:12 |
|
Man the Venezuelan twitter feeds are interesting... a lot of them seem to be quite upset about the outcome. Of course, if the opposition only got 3 minutes a day on TV I can understand why they would not think this was very democratic.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:13 |
|
Russell William Thorpe posted:Has a right-wing leader in Central/South America ever lead to good things? I guess you could say Óscar Arias had a good foreign policy (social democrat, though). And argentineans always freak out about this but Perón could be considered as right-wing depending on the perspective. The number of leaders in Central/South America that have lead to good things can be counted with the fingers of a single hand, and if we're talking about those whose good things have prevailed over time instead of fizzing out right after they step out of power, the list would include José Figueres and... that's about it.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:13 |
|
Russell William Thorpe posted:Man the Venezuelan twitter feeds are interesting... a lot of them seem to be quite upset about the outcome. It probably has more to do with them being middle-class.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:14 |
|
What does "Me Iria Demasiado" mean?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:16 |
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:I was more commenting that Romney will have ample room to use Venezuela as a talking point to bash Obama on now that a "foreign policy loss" (as far as Republicans are concerned) has entered the news cycle. This is perhaps the least important aspect of the story. Russell William Thorpe posted:Man the Venezuelan twitter feeds are interesting... a lot of them seem to be quite upset about the outcome. The opposition also had the entirety of the private media lined up behind them with a torrent of cash from the EU and the US government backstopping them, so...
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:15 |
|
SexyBlindfold posted:I guess you could say Óscar Arias had a good foreign policy (social democrat, though). On his first term yes, on his second term he kicked out the Taiwanese embassy in exchange of Chinese money under the influence of his evil brother Rodrigo (who will probably win in 2014 because people are remarkably stupid). That was an extremely lovely thing to do to a country that had been our ally for decades Sorry for the derail
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:18 |
|
What are the ways in which Chavez is undemocratic? Do they weigh up against decreasing income disparity and the undemocratic power that wealth brings with it? edit: vvv also, Venezuela is way better than Cuba regarding democracy, right? ekuNNN fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Oct 8, 2012 |
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:20 |
|
I'm guessing that it was a close election decided by the advantages of incumbency. Chavez has a loyal and highly effective political machine and I'd bet his use of state/PSUV resources to help turn out his supporters worked to his advantage. That might be "unfair" to Caprilles but that's also ... politics. It's not the same thing as fixing the vote. Frijolero posted:I hope Chavez wins. On the one hand, I've heard that Chavez is a communist dictator who has given the country over to Cuba -- that's the more extreme anti-Chavez view. On the other (and this is coming from Chavez opponents), I've heard the areas where Venezuela has become demonstrably worse (particularly in terms of crime) date to the chaos of the 1990s anyways and are not easy to solve. They also say Chavez's social programs have done a lot of good even if it's difficult to sort out exactly which programs are wasteful and which ones are working. Their main objection was that Chavez is a vain egomaniac who wants to concentrate authority under himself. They also see attempts to tar Caprilles with the right-wing oligarchs as ridiculous, and that he's more of a "Lula-style" social democrat. But really everyone needs to calm down and it's not the end of the world if either is president.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:21 |
|
^^^ I think this is probably the most cogent observation here (and I agree with it)Must Love Dogs posted:The opposition also had the entirety of the private media lined up behind them with a torrent of cash from the EU and the US government backstopping them, so... But no one except the middle/upper class can afford to listen to the private media in Venezuela anymore since they've been run off the public airwaves... ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Oct 8, 2012 |
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:21 |
|
ekuNNN posted:What are the ways in which Chavez is undemocratic? Do they weigh up against decreasing income disparity and the undemocratic power that wealth bring with it? Pretty sure that's what most of his critics specifically object to as being undemocratic.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:21 |
|
Russell William Thorpe posted:What does "Me Iria Demasiado" mean? Are you serious? It means "I would leave (as in go) too much." It seems to be a meme. Someone said "I would leave too much" instead of saying "I would leave immediately." It's a simple slip of the tongue or bad vocabulary.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:21 |
|
Drogadon posted:On his first term yes, on his second term he kicked out the Taiwanese embassy in exchange of Chinese money under the influence of his evil brother Rodrigo (who will probably win in 2014 because people are remarkably stupid). That was an extremely lovely thing to do to a country that had been our ally for decades Hey, they squeezed a bridge out of the taiwanese and a stadium out of the chinese, that's a pretty good deal.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:25 |
|
Frijolero posted:Are you serious? Ahh, ok, thanks. People saying they'd leave if Chavez wins or something?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:27 |
|
ComradeCosmobot posted:But no one except the middle/upper class can afford to listen to the private media in Venezuela anymore since they've been run off the public airwaves... No they haven't. Globovision is still on the air from Caracas, Aragua, Carabobo and Zulia and they are aggressively anti-Chavez.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:28 |
|
Russell William Thorpe posted:Ahh, ok, thanks. People saying they'd leave if Chavez wins or something? It's probably the same as "If [US presidental candidate] wins I'm moving to Canada! "
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:28 |
|
Must Love Dogs posted:No they haven't. Globovision is still on the air from Caracas, Aragua, Carabobo and Zulia and they are aggressively anti-Chavez. Oh, okay. I will admit that the last I'd heard about media in the country was back when RCTV was shut down and moved to cable/satellite, and I thought I had heard that that had been the case with all anti-Chavez stations by that point.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:30 |
|
How about some quick social journalism? "Caracas, City of Farewells" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsD8Edq2cgw This is a video by what appear to be middle-class/upper-class Venezuelan youngsters. They claim that the situation is so bad that they are intending on leaving. Many of their friends have already left. It is really unpopular because many Venezuelans are offended by the idea of these young adults complaining about their conditions (also it seems that they think they are ditzy/innocent/dumb). The description says "Please don't clap when the airplane lands." Though I'm not Venezuelan and know almost nothing about the conditions (aside from talking to several people from Caracas) it seems like this video is forced and biased. The people in the video must be relatively well-off if they can afford to leave. I've seen these sentiments among many middle-class/upper-class Venezolanos. They are anti-Chavez because they can afford to. Frijolero fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Oct 8, 2012 |
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:33 |
|
ekuNNN posted:It's probably the same as "If [US presidental candidate] wins I'm moving to Canada! " Makes sense, thanks for answers. I do feel kind of bad for the people who are going to have to have 20 years of a President they hate, at least in America we are limited to 8. Of course this is good for the people who aren't going to be so poor I guess. Which reminds me, the posts on the internet of rage are going to be tremendous on November 6th.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:33 |
|
What about when you take into consideration Chavez's daily speeches that go into hours long rants that must be carried by all stations?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:33 |
|
Must Love Dogs posted:Pretty sure that's what most of his critics specifically object to as being undemocratic. Pretty much. Chavez is not perfect, and people like to point-out that he's not perfect while ignoring everything he has done for Venezuela. His policies overall have led to enormous growth and wealth equality, but critics will always say, "Well, [X] policy wasn't good, was it? Of course it wasn't. Therefore, Chavez is a failure." Venezuela holds fair elections that are heavily monitored by the U.N., so if there's a problem, you'd think the capitalist hegemony would've pointed it out by now instead of just running superficial propaganda against Chavez. It's fair to say that Chavez has a cult of personality surrounding him. It's also fair to say that Barack Obama has a cult of personality surrounding him, and Stephen Harper has a cult of personality surrounding him, and the late Jack Layton, and the Queen of England, and any other loving popular politician. But people point-out Chavez's like it's some grotesque exception rather than the norm (even if the norm is unhealthy). It's fair to say that price fixing & a policy of emphasizing self-sufficiency has caused shortages of some goods, like milk. But every system has a trade-off, and in this case, the trade-off is that Venezuela is not beholden to the World Bank or IMF or any other loving capitalist trade treaty: they can vote how they like & do what they like without the IMF trying to 'restructure' communities in exchange for food / water. The whole economy also won't break just because a few bourgeoisie decided to make risky bets on housing, which is a plus in my book. Western media & state officials hate him because he underscores the lie about capitalism being 'the only viable system'. They wish so badly that Venezuela was a failed state & dictatorship like North Korea.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:44 |
|
PrezCamachoo posted:What about when you take into consideration Chavez's daily speeches that go into hours long rants that must be carried by all stations? Kinda like how I can't enjoy the radio/TV/internet because I have to listen to corporate brainwashing? The solution is TURN IT OFF.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:44 |
|
quote:What about when you take into consideration Chavez's daily speeches that go into hours long rants that must be carried by all stations? This is an exaggeration / fantasy. What do you consider the American Presidential debates, inauguration, addresses, etc?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:48 |
|
The Ender posted:This is an exaggeration / fantasy. To be fair, those don't happen every week like Aló Presidente does, and certainly not with the exaggerated excessive durations that have been ascribed to that show. EDIT: On the other hand, there's no equivalent show in America in which "government ministers are required to attend the program. They may be questioned by the president about anything, and sometimes policy — even military policy — is made on the show." ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Oct 8, 2012 |
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:50 |
|
The Ender posted:Pretty much. If his policies have been so good for the poor why has the crime rate gone through the roof since he came to power? Why are there more people dieing violent deaths in Caracas than BAGHDAD? Is poverty not related to crime?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:52 |
|
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:54 |
|
The Ender posted:What do you consider the American Presidential debates, inauguration, addresses, etc? Are you really comparing Chavez taking over all Venezuelan airwaves multiple times a week for hours on end to US political events?
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:57 |
|
|
# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:23 |
|
PrezCamachoo posted:If his policies have been so good for the poor why has the crime rate gone through the roof since he came to power? Between 1997 to 2007 the poverty rate dropped from 54.5% to 33.6%. So yeah, Chavez has had a direct effect of lifting millions out of poverty.
|
# ? Oct 8, 2012 04:59 |