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caleramaen posted:I guess I didn't notice that. That's the point.
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Oct 18, 2012 09:29
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Two Finger posted:Anyway, I see some conversation above about the prologue and chapter one, and I am curious. Someone had to have told Elza where the Sad Bracelets were and how to undo the traps. Just prior (?) to this we're shown Cadsuane showing them to the Aiel Wise Ones.
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Oct 18, 2012 10:28
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Affi posted:Someone had to have told Elza where the Sad Bracelets were and how to undo the traps. Just prior (?) to this we're shown Cadsuane showing them to the Aiel Wise Ones. Huh. Well, that makes sense. But you know what? gently caress ya'll. I'm gonna keep reading these in my completely brain switched off childlike enjoyment stage which is how I failed to realise until they got to Caemlyn that Mat was acting really loving strange and how also I failed to notice that Rand was loving batshit. It's great, really. Because then even the most telegraphed plot twist is a surprise to me. Try it out!
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Oct 18, 2012 11:28
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Wasn't that campfire / darkfriend group scene where he introduces the totally sweet "jump up, spin-around and decapitate a mounted fo'"-move?  May also have been the ONLY time that move is used. What was it called?
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Oct 18, 2012 16:32
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Affi posted:Someone had to have told Elza where the Sad Bracelets were and how to undo the traps. Just prior (?) to this we're shown Cadsuane showing them to the Aiel Wise Ones. I've been convinced the second part is incorrect and managed to dig this up: LUCKERS Do the Forsaken know the weaves Elza used to break the warding Cadsuane placed on the Domination Band? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. LUCKERS So, why didn’t they use it on wardings Rand placed on Callandor, and the other things they’ve wanted that were warded earlier in the series? BRANDON SANDERSON *stares at me for a long moment, thoughtfully* They may not have know them then. The thing is... we don’t see a lot of the Shadow innovating with the Power, unlike with the Light, but they have been. As much as the Light. But they know, now. The notes definitely say this. So only the location is needed. The forsaken and Elza can break wards. Which stands to reason considering that Rand warded the way gates to kill trollocs and that clearly didn't happen in Camelyn How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box? BRANDON SANDERSON Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Oct 18, 2012 |
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Oct 18, 2012 18:16
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Affi posted:Someone had to have told Elza where the Sad Bracelets were and how to undo the traps. Just prior (?) to this we're shown Cadsuane showing them to the Aiel Wise Ones. Spoiler regarding "someone": Bair can't channel - she couldn't have shown Elza how to undo the traps. So even without Sanderson confirming that Shaidar Haran tortured the knowledge into Elza, we'd know it wasn't Bair, at least not for that part. Also, (spoiler regarding the same person) that Bair can't channel makes it less suspicious that she seems to have volunteered to skip the Last Battle - Wise Ones don't fight with weapons and she can neither fight nor heal with the One Power.
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Oct 18, 2012 22:50
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I know I'm a bit late to this thread, but I'm super excited for this last book. Been reading this series for about 10 years now, probably the best series I've ever read. Does anyone have any idea if Rand will end up fulfilling the Seanchan Prophecy of him 'kneeling to the Crystal Throne?' Especially with the Empire as messed up as it is after the murder of Tuon's family?
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Oct 19, 2012 00:10
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Seanchan Prohpesy is intentionally corrupted and twisted by Ishamael. For instance, the Karaethon Cycle seems to be the most accurate prophesy (besides the secret shadow prophesy) and it states that "He shall bind the nine moons to serve him." This could mean that She'll be straight up chained by A'dam, or perhaps something more abstract, like overseeing a marriage ceremony between her and Mat. I don't know, some of this stuff can be silly. That said, the Seanchan prophesy could still be fulfilled, as it doesn't really contradict the other Dragon prophesies. I think it might come to pass, but not in the court of the Seanchan capital. If I remember correctly, one of the obscure, or random, ter'angreal found in Rhuidean and sent to Tar Valon just happened to be a Throne made of Crystal. And guess which pair of newlyweds seem to be itchin to plunder the White Tower for an impromptu honeymoon trip?
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Oct 19, 2012 00:44
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What would be the point of him overseeing a marriage ceremony? My guess is that her marrying Mat was part of fulfilling him binding the Nine Moons, since Mat sortof works for Rand, albeit very indirectly. That would be interesting to see if they plundered the White Tower. Not like they've been using all those ter'angreal anyways.
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Oct 19, 2012 04:24
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I am on my reread and finished Lord of Chaos yesterday (ah Dumai Wells) and now I am confused about Elaida's foretelling. The one about the Royal Line of Andor, this refers to Rand and Elaida just misinterpreted it because she doesn't know who Rand's mother is?
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Oct 19, 2012 08:38
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Tahirovic posted:I am on my reread and finished Lord of Chaos yesterday (ah Dumai Wells) and now I am confused about Elaida's foretelling. The one about the Royal Line of Andor, this refers to Rand and Elaida just misinterpreted it because she doesn't know who Rand's mother is? That seems like the most likely reading, but it could also apply to Elayne (contributing a huge army to the Last Battle, bringing Dragons and ter'angreal, giving Rand something to fight for), or Gawyn (keeping Egwene from dying), or Galad or Morgase doing something at a pivotal moment (helping Perrin mature as a leader?). Personally, I think it's all of those - Elaida's fatal flaw is her belief that she can and should wield all power by herself, so of course she would misinterpret a prophecy about how everyone has to work together to effectively wield power.
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Oct 19, 2012 09:19
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Ponsonby Britt posted:That seems like the most likely reading, but it could also apply to Elayne (contributing a huge army to the Last Battle, bringing Dragons and ter'angreal, giving Rand something to fight for), or Gawyn (keeping Egwene from dying), or Galad or Morgase doing something at a pivotal moment (helping Perrin mature as a leader?). Personally, I think it's all of those - Elaida's fatal flaw is her belief that she can and should wield all power by herself, so of course she would misinterpret a prophecy about how everyone has to work together to effectively wield power. The must crucial aspect of it is obvious. The royal house of Andor at the time she made the Foretelling would produce the Dragon Reborn. You simply can't have a more crucial component of the Last Battle. Now the present Andor would be very handy for the Last Battle, but I'd hardly call it crucial. It contributes to the military component, but the Seanchan would hardly offer any less, nor the Borderlands. Rand is the only mystically indispensible component.
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Oct 19, 2012 09:45
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Tahirovic posted:I am on my reread and finished Lord of Chaos yesterday (ah Dumai Wells) and now I am confused about Elaida's foretelling. The one about the Royal Line of Andor, this refers to Rand and Elaida just misinterpreted it because she doesn't know who Rand's mother is? Well, in fairness, at the time that Elaida had the Foretelling she had no idea Rand existed - it was what prompted her to become the advisor to the Queen of Andor. The one she had while he was there didn't say "And also, this is that guy," so she wouldn't have had any reason to assume "So, this guy pointed out by the (Though I guess to be less fair, Elaida also misinterpreted her other major Foretelling, so it could just be that she's dense.)
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Oct 19, 2012 18:53
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zonohedron posted:Well, in fairness, at the time that Elaida had the Foretelling she had no idea Rand existed - it was what prompted her to become the advisor to the Queen of Andor. The one she had while he was there didn't say "And also, this is that guy," so she wouldn't have had any reason to assume "So, this guy pointed out by the She's pretty dense. Mesaana muses over her direct and unusually to-the-point language in her Foretellings when they're usually delivered more in Nicola's style; in metered verse using references unknown to the listeners so that its predictive abilities are useless to anyone who actively seeks to gain through them. I think its Moiraine who describes Foretold prophecy not as something That Will Happen, but as a description of the conditions for a subsequent thing to happen which takes shape organically, subjective to the context which lies outside the graven prophecy. This is the balance RJ strikes between determinism and predestination. Elaida, by upbringing, education, or experience, does not "get" this. She believes in rational structures which can be altered to the whims of those in power and venerates that power, when the reality as demonstrated by the POV of the more competent rulers is much more like the metaphor of embracing and channeling saidar. The river guided by the bank and all that... Elaida as a character is a sign-toting, banner-waving, gun-shooting, chest-beating, bridge-burning mascot demonstrating the dangers of the literal reading of capital-T Text from a desire to have everything Mean Something, rather than allowing a Text to exist in an immanent sense while allowing oneself in the meantime to be guided by observation, intuition, and empathy. She's such a brash, blunt, obvious and oblivious character I'd wager most people don't pick up on her presence and influence on the story being a very pointed critique of how some otherwise intelligent people very much attached to logical analysis and events making rational sense (by way of creating some kind of general category lets call these people "nerds") read books.
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Oct 19, 2012 19:54
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Willie Tomg posted:She's such a brash, blunt, obvious and oblivious character I'd wager most people don't pick up on her presence and influence on the story being a very pointed critique of how some otherwise intelligent people very much attached to logical analysis and events making rational sense (by way of creating some kind of general category lets call these people "nerds") read books. I don't think that's the right interpretation of her. I think Alvarin actually thinks the correct interpretation: Elida sees the world the way she wants it to be, then tries to force it to become that. Her flaws don't derive from her poor interpretation of her fortellings: her poor interpretation of her foretellings is a result of her unwillingness to see the world as anything but what she wants it to be. There's a fairly subtle indication of this with the foretellings: she knows the Royal House of Andor is the key to the Last Battle. Knowing nothing else, she tries to have a member of that house killed without even considering if he's the one the foretelling refers to (when in LoC she has Galina attempt to have Gawyn killed by the Shaido). Because she's a Red, the only person she considers possibly relevant are Morgase and Elayne. That's not just poor interpretation of the foretelling to not realize it might have meant the old Royal House: it's moronic even given her understanding of it. When she has the foretelling regarding the White Tower, she doesn't have the wit to realize it doesn't mention which side wins (or even that a current Amyrlin wins): she sees it as an unambiguous foretelling of her own victory because that's what she wishes to believe.
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Oct 19, 2012 21:52
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Yeah, Elaida is not detached enough or analytical enough to really use Foretelling correctly. Her interpretation or desires color everything and lead to disaster after disaster.
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Oct 20, 2012 05:39
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There's also the fact that she's got a bit of the Shadar Logoth taint in her, from the time Fain spent with her.
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Oct 21, 2012 06:33
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evilweasel posted:There's a fairly subtle indication of this with the foretellings: she knows the Royal House of Andor is the key to the Last Battle. Knowing nothing else, she tries to have a member of that house killed without even considering if he's the one the foretelling refers to (when in LoC she has Galina attempt to have Gawyn killed by the Shaido). Because she's a Red, the only person she considers possibly relevant are Morgase and Elayne. That's not just poor interpretation of the foretelling to not realize it might have meant the old Royal House: it's moronic even given her understanding of it. drat, I missed that. Elaida is basically the worst leader you can possibly have in a crisis, since she entirely ignores the real situation in favor of an ideal situation that exists only in her head.
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Oct 21, 2012 07:14
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She's also a bit power-nuts, what with her wanting to build herself a giant palace and all.
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Oct 21, 2012 08:53
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Elaida sucks so much that she forced some of the most evil, secretive, devious people in the Westlands to go, "FOR FUCKS SAKE, JUST SHUT UP AND SIT IN THE CORNER WHILE THE ADULTS TAKE CARE OF THIS!! gently caress"
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Oct 21, 2012 18:24
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Elaida is so terrible that she is simultaneously one of the most and least believable characters in the series.
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Oct 21, 2012 20:20
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evilweasel posted:I don't think that's the right interpretation of her. I think Alvarin actually thinks the correct interpretation: Elida sees the world the way she wants it to be, then tries to force it to become that. Her flaws don't derive from her poor interpretation of her fortellings: her poor interpretation of her foretellings is a result of her unwillingness to see the world as anything but what she wants it to be. I don't disagree with this at all, I think we're making the same point from different ends. You're (correctly) identifying the source and nature of her flaws and I'm saying those character flaws resonate with themes that come up all the time in the larger work, specifically that trying to wrangle a thing that exists outside of you into what you'd rather it be as opposed to what it needs to be in the moment (like: the text of prophecy or foretelling or viewing or flows of saidar or turning your home village into a barony with standing armies or a seemingly counterintuitive destiny to save the world with a horrible cataclysm or whatever) is not only ineffectual and wrong but needlessly painful. This is as close to a central theme as exists in a series of the length of Wheel of Time and Elaida communicates this in her own way very deftly. By Elaida standards, anyway. I mean, maybe RJ was sitting at his desk writing Fires of Heaven and went "Elaida must be a clumsy vapid bitch because she was touched by Shadar Logoth Mojo and That's Canon, Yo because I need another antagonist to drag this out for ten more books counting this one and gently caress this story and gently caress my readers, now where'd I put my bacon?" but I doubt it. I think its more likely that RJ had a blank check to write a popular fiction series, and in doing so kept in the back of his head a general set of ideas and ideals that come up again and again and again in the series and, irrespective of their particular origins in the plot, Elaida and her flaws do their little bit in communicating them.
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Oct 22, 2012 17:10
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One day I read Elaida in the voice of Mallory Archer and it will never, ever unstick.
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Oct 22, 2012 18:49
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Bragon posted:One day I read Elaida in the voice of Mallory Archer and it will never, ever unstick. Nonononono the setup is "Does anyone read Elaida as Mallory Archer?" so you can get the easy return "Does anyone not?"
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Oct 22, 2012 19:12
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Willie Tomg posted:Nonononono the setup is "Does anyone read Elaida as Mallory Archer?" so you can get the easy return "Does anyone not?" Problem is I'm not hearing much at all in my head over all the beeping. (That part of the video fits so well with pretty much any "Elaida has a meeting" chapters from the books)
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Oct 22, 2012 20:22
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Bragon posted:One day I read Elaida in the voice of Mallory Archer and it will never, ever unstick. Oh god now I'm locked into reading Elaida as Lillian Bluth
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Oct 22, 2012 20:29
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Bragon posted:One day I read Elaida in the voice of Mallory Archer and it will never, ever unstick. Oh you absolute fucker.
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Oct 22, 2012 21:47
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Pimpmust posted:Problem is I'm not hearing much at all in my head over all the beeping. (That part of the video fits so well with pretty much any "Elaida has a meeting" chapters from the books) my god it's full of stars...
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Oct 22, 2012 21:54
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Bragon posted:One day I read Elaida in the voice of Mallory Archer and it will never, ever unstick. I just want to say....I hate you.
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Oct 23, 2012 04:23
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As a trekkie, I have always drawn parallels in my head between Elaida and deep space 9s Kai Winn, and so I always picture Elaida as her, and her voice as Winn's.
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Oct 23, 2012 04:43
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The Lord Bude posted:As a trekkie, I have always drawn parallels in my head between Elaida and deep space 9s Kai Winn, and so I always picture Elaida as her, and her voice as Winn's. In terms of personality they are very similar, but say what you will of Elaida (whom I hate more than any other Wheel of Time character) she's no Darkfriend. There are limits to Elaida's delusions. She would never join with the Dark One in order to purify the world. Another difference is that Winn has doubts, and voices them constantly. But you are right in that the characters do behave in similar ways. They both see everything in terms of how it affects their power and position. So a thing is only true as long as it supports their authority. sweet geek swag fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Oct 23, 2012 |
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Oct 23, 2012 05:27
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Audiobook excerpt, chapter 2 of AMoL: Choice of an Ajah http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/10/audioslice-a-memory-of-light-chapter-2-qthe-choice-of-an-ajahq Terez is transcribing it right now: http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7454 It's opening with a Pevara POV, with her and Androl. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Oct 24, 2012 |
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Oct 24, 2012 16:00
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HOOOOOOOOOOLY poo poo WHAT HAVE I BEEN SAYING ALL LONG, THE BOND IS IMPORTANT, THE TWO MUST BE AS ONE. Pevara bonds Androl without permission (from Androl). He bonds her RIGHT BACK. They MELD. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Oct 24, 2012 |
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Oct 24, 2012 16:45
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I hovered over that and drat I can not wait, 2.5 more months. Why must this be days before my qualification exams! 
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Oct 24, 2012 18:24
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Hoho, read the summary and boy, nothing earth-shattering but it's shaping up to be an interesting ride!
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Oct 24, 2012 20:23
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api call girl posted:HOOOOOOOOOOLY poo poo WHAT HAVE I BEEN SAYING ALL LONG, THE BOND IS IMPORTANT, THE TWO MUST BE AS ONE. Hmm, what does this mean for Min?
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Oct 24, 2012 21:45
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My Friend Radio posted:Hmm, what does this mean for Min? The First Sister bond the Aiel do can be performed between non-channellers. I'm guessing that Elayne is about to oversee a first-sister bond between Aviendha and Min. In fact, in ToM: "He shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one" 
VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Oct 24, 2012 |
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Oct 24, 2012 22:05
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api call girl posted:The First Sister bond the Aiel do can be performed between non-channellers. I'm guessing that Elayne is about to oversee a first-sister bond between Aviendha and Min. Faaaaantastic.
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Oct 24, 2012 22:15
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api call girl posted:Audiobook excerpt, chapter 2 of AMoL: Choice of an Ajah Glad I read this on my phone earlier because it's already down.
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Oct 24, 2012 22:41
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RembrandtQEinstein posted:Glad I read this on my phone earlier because it's already down. Anyone have a copy they can PM? I need my fix...
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Oct 25, 2012 01:43
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