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Mister Fister posted:So is there a thread for x86 non-rt win 8 tablets? I tried looking on IYG and SHSC... I kind of assumed it was the general Win8 thread since everything there basically pertains to a PC which an x86 tablet would essentially be.
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Nov 14, 2012 06:31
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Kazy posted:I think both? Samsung ATIV Smart PC (god what a dumb long name) seems to be the only one that's out, and only then in limited supply at Staples. Microsoft Stores have this, and god is this an ugly device. I hate Samsung
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Nov 14, 2012 08:15
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I borrowed a surface for a few days last week and here are my impressions: Hardware: -The case design is pretty good and I actually prefer the bevel over the rounded corners of the ipad. The case and weight make it physically feel like the best tablet on the market. Until you hold it for more than about 20 minutes and then it starts to feel awfully awkward because -The aspect ratio is really stupid. It's okay for watching movies but not for much else. If you aren't going to go 4:3 I wish you'd go 16:10 because that actually gives some novel productivity benefits in both landscape and portrait. -The screen isn't very good. The resolution isn't a huge sticking point so much as color saturation, which is laughably bad. -Also the cameras are bad, like you could probably get a pretty similar experience on a three year old flip phone or feature phone. -Battery life is pretty good and charging times are good. The magnetic charging port isn't as good as an iPad but it's not a big problem. -The type cover is just okay. It's awkward to switch to tablet mode by swinging the keyboard around back so it's easier to pop it off whenever you're not using it. After the first afternoon I just switched to a bluetooth keyboard, like I end up doing with any tablet. -The kickstand is a good idea poorly implemented. The edges are sharp enough to scratch poo poo up if you aren't careful. It really needs to be adjustable to be useful, even if the device had to be twice as thick to accommodate some sort of adjustment screw. Right now unless you're the right height(I'm certainly too tall) the kickstand simply isn't useful unless you put the surface on a desk, or get an angled lap-desk and hunch up in a weird position with the lap-desk perched on your knees. Software: -App switching is actually good and fluid as long as you don't have too much going on. The touch screen is generally responsive and although most of the gestures and especially all of the weird slide on/off bezel gestures are non-intuitive it didn't take very long to learn them. -I didn't like the 1/3 2/3 side by side split. It was easier to just switch apps. -I guess it has office but I don't think I've used office for years except for using word as an offline spellcheck. There are probably people who still use office who are really excited about office rt, so maybe that's a thing worth some money to some people? -Microsd integration is pretty bad. mklnk-ing symbolic links "works" but the results are not good. Unless you're only storing long videos and pdfs on your sd card it's pretty frustrating. -Live tiles aren't good and I really don't understand to whom the live tiles are supposed to appeal. Weird jerky updates all over the screen doesn't help me out, it just irritates. There should be exactly 2 live tiles per screen and they should calmly roll through several different app notifications much more slowly than the current live tiles cycle. -Extending the display is another good idea poorly implemented. The already sluggish response of the surface is compounded by pushing data to a larger display over hdmi and you get lots of tearing during any sort of video playback. -Handwriting recognition was about as good as you'd expect(garbage). Bottom Line: Unless you specifically need to be able to do excel data entry without a keyboard and for some reason you can't use any other tablet as a thin client or you really want to make a protest purchase but can't stand android then I don't know what is compelling about this tablet at $500+. It feels like it should be in the range of $269-$299 without a keyboard cover. Entering a market as a third(fourth?) mover puts you at a pretty big disadvantage. You either need to leverage nth mover advantage by stealing and improving upon the best from your competitors and building a device that completely blows everything else out of the water or you need to become a solid budget brand before incrementally improving. The surface does neither, it is a niche device released at an unbelievable price point with hardware that frankly was long in the tooth in Q2 2012 and schizophrenic software that does many things poorly instead of a few things well.
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Nov 14, 2012 12:06
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angry_keebler posted:-Extending the display is another good idea poorly implemented. The already sluggish response of the surface is compounded by pushing data to a larger display over hdmi and you get lots of tearing during any sort of video playback.  Wow. Can other Surface owners confirm this? They don't actually double-buffer video when sent to an external display?
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Nov 14, 2012 14:14
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I was out of town last weekend and was finally near enough to an MS store to check out Surfaces in person. I liked them quite a bit -- loved the kickstand, the build quality, etc. I was surprised by how well the Touch Cover worked. BUT, after loading up 4 apps (News, Sports, Weather, and Word in the desktop), I opened Cut the Rope. The performance was awful -- it was like the candy on the rope was swinging through molasses, it was so slow. This is a game that works great on my Lumia 900, so this is mind-boggling to me. A total deal-breaker. Heck, now I'm looking at the Atom tablets, not because I give a crap about running legacy Desktop applications, but because I want decent performance on years-old games that ran fine on an iPad 1. Anyway, I hear that MS pushed out some patches that improved performance. I've seen that apps load faster, which is fine, but slow loading times don't bother me a ton (I'll keep all my frequently used apps running, and app-switching is super fast). Can anyone with a Surface confirm whether or not these patches improve gaming performance? http://www.wpcentral.com/microsoft-surface-gets-slew-patches-reportedly-improves-app-performance
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Nov 14, 2012 15:30
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angry_keebler posted:There should be exactly 2 live tiles per screen and they should calmly roll through several different app notifications much more slowly than the current live tiles cycle. Maybe I'm biased because I've been a windows phone user since day one, but this just sounds horrible to me. That being said, I don't see why someone couldn't implement an app that would poll all your accounts and display all of them on one live tile. It just goes against the entire point of live tiles, though, so I wouldn't count on it.
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Nov 14, 2012 15:54
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General E posted:BUT, after loading up 4 apps (News, Sports, Weather, and Word in the desktop), I opened Cut the Rope. The performance was awful -- it was like the candy on the rope was swinging through molasses, it was so slow. This is a game that works great on my Lumia 900, so this is mind-boggling to me. A total deal-breaker. Heck, now I'm looking at the Atom tablets, not because I give a crap about running legacy Desktop applications, but because I want decent performance on years-old games that ran fine on an iPad 1. All of the reports I've seen are saying that Cut the Rope is just a rushed piece of poo poo that runs slow due to bad code more than anything. I've played MUCH more demanding games without a hitch.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:03
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So I had to install the updates. The SurfaceRT asked me to restart. So I did, and it started installing the firmware update. I didn't pay attention, but after a while, I found it with the display off. I thought, lets see what changed, I pull it out of standby and it starts installing the updates. Apparently this thing just continues to merrily go into deep sleep even during system updates. Nice going, Microsoft.
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Nov 14, 2012 17:23
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Combat Pretzel posted:So I had to install the updates. The SurfaceRT asked me to restart. So I did, and it started installing the firmware update. I didn't pay attention, but after a while, I found it with the display off. I thought, lets see what changed, I pull it out of standby and it starts installing the updates. Nothing new though. My iPhone does this without having to manually tell it to stop. This isn't really a problem unless there's no way to tell it not to.
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Nov 14, 2012 18:06
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EvilBit posted:All of the reports I've seen are saying that Cut the Rope is just a rushed piece of poo poo that runs slow due to bad code more than anything. I've played MUCH more demanding games without a hitch. What other games are you playing on your Surface tablet that are performing well (just curious)?
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Nov 14, 2012 20:32
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Stumpus posted:Nothing new though. My iPhone does this without having to manually tell it to stop. This isn't really a problem unless there's no way to tell it not to.  iOS devices will sleep the screen but once the update begins installing it will continue in the background. Even app updates/downloads will continue while the device is sleeping, though there is a timer there that stops them if it goes too long to avoid running down your battery. If it's plugged in then it will complete app updates even if they take an hour for some insane reason.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:03
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IcedPee posted:Maybe I'm biased because I've been a windows phone user since day one, but this just sounds horrible to me. That being said, I don't see why someone couldn't implement an app that would poll all your accounts and display all of them on one live tile. It just goes against the entire point of live tiles, though, so I wouldn't count on it. Yeah it wouldn't be a big challenge to change the behavior of live tiles, and you can turn them off if you don't like them. I just didn't like the overall adhd interface. Like, give me a 5-7 px diffuse glow slowly pulsing on the border of each app tile that requires my attention and maybe 2 live tiles that just keep on a rollin' and I'd be a lot happier with the metro interface. There's some merit to live tiles, and I think a better implementation would make them more or less the best way to push information on a home screen. e: also I've only played with a windows phone for like 20 minutes but live tiles seemed like they work pretty good on a phone's limited screen real estate. angry_keebler fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 14, 2012 |
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Nov 14, 2012 22:10
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Happy_Misanthrope posted:
Tom's Hardware has a (not very good) video about the extended monitor experience that is pretty similar to what I saw when I was monkeying around with the surface. If you are only using just media playback of a single 1080p file to the extended display and letting live tiles cycle on the surface screen, it works okay, and I never noticed any serious problems when cloning the display instead of extending it. But if you extend the display to watch video while working on something on the tablet, or vice versa, it really bogs down the tablet pretty quickly and media playback especially but overall performance in general suffers. It's sort of par for the course with the surface. An iPad or android tablet only lets you clone the display, instead of allowing you to extend it, probably because they tested extended displays and found out that it just doesn't work very well and can be pretty disappointing. Yes it's a good feature, but it just isn't ready for prime time on ARM yet, so wait until the hardware catches up. But Microsoft comes along and says "hey, we know this isn't working as well as you'd expect, and sometimes it can get pretty lovely, but nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to use this feature that kinda works and maybe it will be good enough." It's a weird design philosophy that probably appeals to some people, like the sort of dude that gets a used DS and turns it into an mp3 player because it technically works and you can also play games on it or w/e.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:55
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General E posted:What other games are you playing on your Surface tablet that are performing well (just curious)? Hydro Thunder Hurricane and Pinball FX2 work quite smoothly, especially after the firmware update. Jetpack Joyride stuttered a bit to start, but smoothed out either truly or at least subjectively. I haven't tried Fruit Ninja since the update, but Angry Birds Star Wars (which should be of comparable or greater complexity with respect to Cut the Rope given its style and physics simulation) runs perfectly well too. There really isn't any reason Cut the Rope should be so bad, but I think they just kicked it through a multi-platform development framework without optimizations in order to get it on the store sooner rather than later.
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Nov 15, 2012 16:44
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EvilBit posted:There really isn't any reason Cut the Rope should be so bad, but I think they just kicked it through a multi-platform development framework without optimizations in order to get it on the store sooner rather than later. If I recall correctly (I can't find the article on it, but I'm sure it's out there), that version of Cut the Rope is actually an HTML5 app, which is probably why it's so slow.
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Nov 15, 2012 16:58
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drasticactions posted:If I recall correctly (I can't find the article on it, but I'm sure it's out there), that version of Cut the Rope is actually an HTML5 app, which is probably why it's so slow. That would make sense, since they also used a web version of Cut the Rope to advertise IE. While I'm here, somebody's suing Microsoft for false advertising regarding the advertised disk space on the Surface vs. the actual available disk space. As the article points out, this happens with every device, but I can't think of another case where the disparity's been so drastic. You early adopters might be entitled to a nice class action settlement check!
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Nov 15, 2012 17:12
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drasticactions posted:If I recall correctly (I can't find the article on it, but I'm sure it's out there), that version of Cut the Rope is actually an HTML5 app, which is probably why it's so slow. I've heard that Cut the Rope uses the Marmalade SDK for cross-platform development. Whether that uses some kind of full or partial HTML5 implementation under the hood or not, I don't know. I also don't know if the blame falls on ZeptoLab or on Marmalade for how bad it is on Windows RT.
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Nov 15, 2012 17:28
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EvilBit posted:I've heard that Cut the Rope uses the Marmalade SDK for cross-platform development. Whether that uses some kind of full or partial HTML5 implementation under the hood or not, I don't know. I also don't know if the blame falls on ZeptoLab or on Marmalade for how bad it is on Windows RT. Considering ZeptoLap released it on the store despite how poorly it runs on ARM, they should get a bit of the blame. I mean, they could have held back on releasing it for ARM and just put it out for Intel chips until it was actually running somewhat decently.
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Nov 15, 2012 17:36
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Werthog posted:That would make sense, since they also used a web version of Cut the Rope to advertise IE. Seems like a good case, at least from my cursory view of it. Although anyone with a certain level of computer knowledge knows that advertised gig space is never what you actually get, and OS installations are always big, there's no mention on the site, at least without digging, that there is actually only 16 gigs available of the 32.
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Nov 15, 2012 17:42
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drasticactions posted:Considering ZeptoLap released it on the store despite how poorly it runs on ARM, they should get a bit of the blame. I mean, they could have held back on releasing it for ARM and just put it out for Intel chips until it was actually running somewhat decently. Fair point. I tend not to count blame as black and white anyway, but Marmalade may also be a little bit undercooked in its ARM support. It was definitely a bad idea to launch so early. It's not like Cut the Rope needs to worry that much about competition.
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Nov 15, 2012 23:24
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EvilBit posted:Fair point. I tend not to count blame as black and white anyway, but Marmalade may also be a little bit undercooked in its ARM support. It was definitely a bad idea to launch so early. It's not like Cut the Rope needs to worry that much about competition. Cut the rope was pretty much the first thing on the store. It happened right at the same time they announced cut the rope for IE. I'm guessing MS did it or paid directly for the port to both Internet Explorer and Windows RT in the HTML/JS projection. If so then, ZeptoLap has no compelling reason to go back and fix it until there seems to be decent revenue out of the Win RT store. I'm hopeful but realistic that basically no one made money on the WP7 store. Right now MS is totally bribing/directly funding Win RT and WP8 apps. We are seeing a significantly distorted market, until this App stores start generating revenue even 5% of the iPhone app store or 10% of Google play we will be stuck in this odd little hole.
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Nov 16, 2012 19:42
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Stick100 posted:Cut the rope was pretty much the first thing on the store. It happened right at the same time they announced cut the rope for IE. I'm guessing MS did it or paid directly for the port to both Internet Explorer and Windows RT in the HTML/JS projection. If so then, ZeptoLap has no compelling reason to go back and fix it until there seems to be decent revenue out of the Win RT store. I think the Atom tablets being delayed is a significant problem. Being able to run x86 apps on a light tablet with decent battery life is a hell of a killer app that can juice Win8 tablet sales and create a market for Win8 tablet programs. It's a severe problem that there's not even any real news on when the Atom tablet issues will be resolved.
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Nov 16, 2012 19:45
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There probably aren't many people interested in this particular Windows RT application, but for the three or four of you who might find utility or diversion in it, dust off your Windows 8 Developer Preview VM and have a gander at this little gem:  This seems like an odd thing for Microsoft to include on an version of Windows that requires a 64-bit Intel CPU. A quick copy to a micro SD card and sure enough:  The directory has some other occasionally useful command line programs. If you know what WinDbg is, running it on a 10" screen is exactly as much fun as it sounds like.
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Nov 17, 2012 02:16
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NotAVeryNiceGuy posted:This seems like an odd thing for Microsoft to include on an version of Windows that requires a 64-bit Intel CPU. I'm kind of surprised that there isn't a jailbreak for running desktop apps on RT yet. I guess nobody cares?
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Nov 17, 2012 15:01
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Werthog posted:It makes sense if you remember that you need Windows 8 to develop for Windows RT. It's not possible because desktop apps aren't compiled in ARM.
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Nov 17, 2012 15:11
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Butt Soup Barnes posted:It's not possible because desktop apps aren't compiled in ARM.
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Nov 17, 2012 16:22
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Werthog posted:It makes sense if you remember that you need Windows 8 to develop for Windows RT. It's not like it left an installer that could install WinDbg on Windows on ARM, it actually installed on an Intel PC something it could never run.
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Nov 17, 2012 17:08
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Werthog posted:Desktop apps weren't compiled for x64, either, until they were. Just because Microsoft doesn't provide a compiler doesn't mean it can't be done. This isn't even close to the same poo poo, not even in the same galaxy. 32bit apps still worked on 64bit machines. There is no reason for a company to invest time and money converting their desktop application to arm so it can be used on a hacked RT machine that doesn't exist yet and if it did, the loophole used could be easily patched. If they want to do ARM applications they would just write for metro UI.
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Nov 17, 2012 17:24
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Welp. Went to the local Staples and they had it for $50 off ($599 total) Decided to go for it since the Thinkpad was delayed until December 18  I'll post impressions in a bit.
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Nov 17, 2012 17:28
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Where'd you see the Dec. 18th date? Also I'd be very interested in hearing how x86 programs and such work on that thing.
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Nov 17, 2012 17:29
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evilweasel posted:Where'd you see the Dec. 18th date? Also I'd be very interested in hearing how x86 programs and such work on that thing. I talked to the web chat people on their website. They seemed to pretty sure, and they confirmed the original Nov. 16th date before it was put on the site.
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Nov 17, 2012 17:42
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Kazy posted:Welp. Can you use this coupon on it? It's cryptic enough "cannot be combined with other coupons" Is the instant discount considered a "coupon?" http://reg.e.staples.com/c/s/tagfrm...=3640155&n=8417
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Nov 17, 2012 17:51
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hotsauce posted:Can you use this coupon on it? It's cryptic enough "cannot be combined with other coupons" On the site it seems that the Instant Savings is something different. Makes me wish I saw that before  I'm doing a PC refresh now to get rid of all the bloatware.edit: Windows 8 syncs my taskbar position and desktop wallpaper 
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Nov 17, 2012 18:01
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hotsauce posted:Can you use this coupon on it? It's cryptic enough "cannot be combined with other coupons" It does say "excludes tablets." Is it considered one?
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Nov 17, 2012 18:36
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gucci void main posted:It does say "excludes tablets." Is it considered one? Guess it depends on how you argue your point. The box says "smart PC" not tablet. Wouldn't all touchscreen devices technically be classified as tablets? Especially hybrid ones... But they really aren't tablets. Who knows. I may try to use the coupon today and see how the debate fares. Question: since it's not RT, does that mean Office isn't included?
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Nov 17, 2012 18:42
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hotsauce posted:
Correct, but you can get the x86 version of Office 2013 Preview for free currently.
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Nov 17, 2012 18:44
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NotAVeryNiceGuy posted:That version of WinDbg can't run on Windows 8, it can only run on Windows RT. That's odd because it shipped a year before anyone could even buy a Windows RT device that could run it, on an ISO which could never install onto a computer which could run it. Also, the Developer Preview's release last year coincided with Microsoft's Build conference, where they handed out the first WOA (Windows On ARM, as they were still calling it then) devices to the attendees so they could get started developing Metro-Style Apps. Just because the devices weren't commercially available yet doesn't mean nobody was developing for them. Don Lapre posted:This isn't even close to the same poo poo, not even in the same galaxy. Was the iPhone jailbroken by a "company"? I'm talking about the spergs who jailbreak everything they can get their hands on because it's my computer, and I'll use it the way I want to, or the genuinely curious hackers who just want to see if it's possible. I fall in the latter camp, I'm just not motivated enough to bother trying (or willing to drop half a grand for the opportunity). There's been plenty of speculation that the gargantuan Windows RT footprint, and the existence of the desktop mode at all, are due to most, if not all, of Windows 8's desktop app support being ported to ARM for the sole purpose of running Office and the other desktop applications that it supports. It'd be interesting to find out whether that's true or not. GameCube fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Nov 17, 2012 |
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Nov 17, 2012 20:21
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Werthog posted:It's a tool for developers to use when programming for Windows RT. You need Windows 8 to develop for Windows RT. Distributing it with the SDK like this (which is where it's located on your hard disk, and why it's in the Developer Preview, which came with the VS11 beta and SDK, and not the later releases of Windows 8) gets it into the hands of Windows RT developers. It's probably still being distributed with the SDK; if I was at work, I'd check, but I haven't installed Windows 8 at home.
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Nov 17, 2012 21:24
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Alright, spent most of the day with this thing dinking around on it, and two main things: 1) I can see why Lenovo is delaying the TPT2 The software seems a bit buggy, I had to force-restart it a couple of times. This might be because I was pushing the device to hard with Steam though. I'll give it a few more days for a final call on this though.2) The battery life.  The Steam stuff I was doing before? I downloaded an 8.5GB game over the last 5 or so hours and I still have around 40% battery left. Once the software buggyness is cleaned up, I see absolutely no reason why you should get an ARM device.
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Nov 18, 2012 00:38
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Keep posting more ATIV impressions please, it's the one I have my eye on. Thanks
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Nov 18, 2012 00:44
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