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I haven't followed this (these) thread(s) since the Egypt thing happened, but man I could see this Israel attack turning volatile. Well, more volatile than normal. Oh dear.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:03
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QPZIL posted:I haven't followed this (these) thread(s) since the Egypt thing happened, but man I could see this Israel attack turning volatile. Well, more volatile than normal. I can see this turning out very normal indeed actually. A lot of raised eyebrows and rhetoric but ultimately nothing of significance happening.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:That and firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets. Which is pretty much the entire region's hobby. I wonder why they fire rockets into Israel...
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Nov 14, 2012 22:13
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:I wonder why they fire rockets into Israel... Because they are embargoed into starvation.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:13
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Farking Bastage posted:Because they are embargoed into starvation. Surely that can't be it, Israel is a peaceful nation and definitely NOT a settler state that controls and dominates the people of Palestine to justify their outsized military expenditure and foreign aid from the USA
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Nov 14, 2012 22:17
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But firing occasional rockets into Israel can't possibly affect change, and there's no reason to think it would, so why do it?
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Nov 14, 2012 22:18
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Golbez posted:But firing occasional rockets into Israel can't possibly affect change, and there's no reason to think it would, so why do it? Lay down and die?
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Nov 14, 2012 22:21
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Golbez posted:But firing occasional rockets into Israel can't possibly affect change, and there's no reason to think it would, so why do it? Because some people see killing Jews who live in what was once part of the Umma as Allah's work. Face it, if the Israelis converted en masse to Islam, they'd be able to slaughter Palestinians with much less of an outcry. Does anyone remember what the Hashemites did to them during Black September?
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Nov 14, 2012 22:22
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Golbez posted:But firing occasional rockets into Israel can't possibly affect change, and there's no reason to think it would, so why do it? To be honest yeah it likely won't do anything except provoke a response from Israel, but I think the only thing they can do is specifically that since the PA has no power and Israel definitely doesn't want it to gain any sort of autonomy. They can only get Israel to attack, and hope other states in the region and around the world help them out politically
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Nov 14, 2012 22:23
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It's almost like individual militants either don't have a cohesive policy, or mainly act to appease a domestic audience!
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Nov 14, 2012 22:23
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az posted:Lay down and die? Dang guys, you heard it hear first. The only options available to Palestinians in the Gaza strip are (a) launch rockets at civilians or (b) lay down and die. No middle ground at all, not a lick.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:23
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Cozy Hemp Mines posted:Dang guys, you heard it hear first. Considering the PA basically lets Israel do whatever it wants and protesters have a history of getting gunned down by Israeli troops I'm not sure what they can do aside from whatever is in their power.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:25
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Cozy Hemp Mines posted:Dang guys, you heard it hear first. A swift and complete analysis of my very detailed, indepth explanation of the issue, now hold your head up and blow your brains out.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:27
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Considering the PA basically lets Israel do whatever it wants and protesters have a history of getting gunned down by Israeli troops I'm not sure what they can do aside from whatever is in their power. The PA is in no position to let or not let Israel do whatever it wants. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, it has the means and would. You couldn't say the same about many of the major players on the other side.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:31
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Considering the PA basically lets Israel do whatever it wants and protesters have a history of getting gunned down by Israeli troops I'm not sure what they can do aside from whatever is in their power. Completely marginalized on an international stage by Israel and the US, a big old embargo on food stuffs and basic supplies, a militaristic state right next door that regularly sends incursions, a government(unrecognized as legitimate) that is ineffectual or worse at protecting the populace, and you expect the Palestinians to do anything *but* fall in with radical groups bent on attacking Israel?
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Nov 14, 2012 22:31
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shitthedd posted:The PA is in no position to let or not let Israel do whatever it wants. If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, it has the means and would. You couldn't say the same about many of the major players on the other side. That's part of the rhetoric, yes. I prefer to deal in the actual situation as opposed to a hypothetical one since Israel is not currently under occupation by Hamas.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:33
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:Completely marginalized on an international stage by Israel and the US, a big old embargo on food stuffs and basic supplies, a militaristic state right next door that regularly sends incursions, a government(unrecognized as legitimate) that is ineffectual or worse at protecting the populace, and you expect the Palestinians to do anything *but* fall in with radical groups bent on attacking Israel? Is this meant to justify radicals' tactics, or meant to deflect from criticism of them?
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Nov 14, 2012 22:34
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:That's part of the rhetoric, yes. I prefer to deal in the actual situation as opposed to a hypothetical one since Israel is not currently under occupation by Hamas. Nice way to sidestep the issue completely.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:36
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shitthedd posted:Is this meant to justify radicals' tactics, or meant to deflect from criticism of them? I'm saying that's why they exist, and we can honestly criticize them from there once we're actually accurate as to the causes and reasons for the existence of these groups.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:37
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The leadership on both sides are responsible, as this never-ending low-intensity conflict gives both sides the justification for their existing stance and their need for continued power. Every leader in the Arab world (I include Israel in this, as they are part of the scenery) must rejuvenate their "wasta" from time to time. It's power politics at its finest and at the expense of others. It won't change until the region/world changes.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:38
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Oh man, are we really doing the I/P thing again? Can we take it to it's own thread? This poo poo never ends without probations and bans and a thread getting  And I really like this thread.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:40
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:I'm saying that's why they exist, and we can honestly criticize them from there once we're actually accurate as to the causes and reasons for the existence of these groups. I'm going to backtrack from my use of the term 'radicals', since groups like Hamas are mainstream in this context. They exist because of a total rejection of Israel and Israelis.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:42
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Well, that IDF live-tweeting business is the most vile thing I've seen in a while. I mean, it's not nearly as bad as all the civilians they're also killing in Gaza or the oppression of the Palestinians in general, but it's just one of those straws that broke the camel's back things.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:43
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The thing that gets to me about those IDF tweets is that they don't even seem that bizarre anymore, given the context of the media/action feedback loop. It's awful, of course, but it's not like I can look at it and say "I have no idea how it came to this point". I think "we" have been on this path for some time now.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:51
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mitztronic posted:Oh man, are we really doing the I/P thing again? Can we take it to it's own thread? This poo poo never ends without probations and bans and a thread getting Yeah, can we avoid the typical I/P thread progression, especially as it's taking place in the context of stuff that's been discussed in this thread like Syria, I'd rather not have to have a separate thread on the issue.
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Nov 14, 2012 22:56
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In an update from Jordan, protesters are reporting the death of protester at the hands of the police in the city of Irbid. Large protests still ongoing in many cities, watch live in Amman: http://www.jordandays.tv/
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Nov 14, 2012 23:01
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Brown Moses posted:Yeah, can we avoid the typical I/P thread progression, especially as it's taking place in the context of stuff that's been discussed in this thread like Syria, I'd rather not have to have a separate thread on the issue. Wouldn't be an issue if ya'll just banned the genocide apologists. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 14, 2012 23:02
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Goatman Sacks posted:Wouldn't be an issue if ya'll just banned the genocide apologists. Way to reduce a morally-ambiguous and intractable conflict to a soundbite for partisan hacks, all while advocating to shut down the debate in favor of your team.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:05
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Back in Syria he's a work safe video of the moment a cameraman is blown to pieces by a bomb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ueeb9Xgb0s
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Nov 14, 2012 23:09
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az posted:Lay down and die? Ah yes, the Dalereed school of Foreign Policy.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:09
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shitthedd posted:Way to reduce a morally-ambiguous and intractable conflict to a soundbite for partisan hacks, all while advocating to shut down the debate in favor of your team. lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 14, 2012 23:17
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Munin posted:I like how the article essentially brushes past the tit-for-tat escalation of the situation from a local clash to some rockets being lobbed across to the Israeli retaliation to the return of full strike and counterstrike as usual. This was my response after the last incident that hit the headline two weeks ago due to this section in a BBC article: quote:Militants in Gaza have fired 26 rockets into Israel, officials say, amid a flare-up in fighting which shattered a brief ceasefire between the two sides. That's just the next step along the continuing spiral of escalation. I wonder how far we'll get this time before we hit stalemate and ceasefire again. Anyway, we went from truce to major strike in about 3 weeks this time.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:18
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shitthedd posted:Way to reduce a morally-ambiguous and intractable conflict to a soundbite for partisan hacks, all while advocating to shut down the debate in favor of your team. Morals are endlessly and pointlessly debatable, the number of civilian deaths per "side" is not. When you have a first rate military force fighting an opponent who's best shot is a rocket fuelled by fertiliser and constructed from a drainpipe, it's hardly a wonder.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:24
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DesperateDan posted:Morals are endlessly and pointlessly debatable, the number of civilian deaths per "side" is not. When you have a first rate military force fighting an opponent who's best shot is a rocket fuelled by fertiliser and constructed from a drainpipe, it's hardly a wonder. No, morals are fixed. We punish negligent manslaughter worse than first-degree murder, and the reason for this is generally accepted. Unless you are a blindly strict utilitarian, you recognize intentional acts as more morally culpable than the results of negligent or reckless behavior. As someone who has always been moderately leftish, I never could understand the fetishization of the Palestinian national cause by so much of the soi-disant Western left. It's an increasingly religiously conservative nationalist movement that consistently rejects pacifism. Is it the exotic headgear?
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Nov 14, 2012 23:29
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Shut up.  quote:President Barack Obama says he's encouraged that the Syrian opposition has formed a new, more representative leadership council. It'll probably end up being France and the AL that escalates arming the rebels.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:31
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who broke the truce brokered by egypt recently anyways? Did Israel brake it by this recent assassination or were a couple rockets fired out of the strip recently?
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Nov 14, 2012 23:36
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never happy posted:who broke the truce brokered by egypt recently anyways? Did Israel brake it by this recent assassination or were a couple rockets fired out of the strip recently? From the news article I read on AJE, it sounds like there were a few rockets fired into southern Isreal prior to their airstrike. That said, I believe wholeheartedly that Isreal was planning to execute these airstrikes weeks/months ahead of time. There were just too many (20+) for it to be retaliation. As others have said, Netanyahu has a lot of political posturing to do for the upcoming elections under the facade of 'keeping the people of Isreal safe'.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:41
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mitztronic posted:As others have said, Netanyahu has a lot of political posturing to do for the upcoming elections under the facade of 'keeping the people of Isreal safe'. Right, it's completely implausible that a nation would take seriously threats and violence against its citizens from foes sworn to its annihilation. Netanyahu is a oval office, but it staggers the mind the conspiracy theories some people see behind Israel's self-defense.
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Nov 14, 2012 23:43
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az posted:Lay down and die? Please, you are not helping the Palestinian cause. I tune out whenever someone accuses Israel of genocide, and I am far enough on the left that I called myself a Marxist-Leninist two years ago. You would make more ground with most Americans by pointing out the effects of the embargo, the racism of the Israeli right, or the disproportionate foreign aid for another first world country. You are only going to alienate any potential supporters by crying "genocide". A quick look at the Palestinian demographics in wikipedia shows that their official population growth rate exceeded 2% in 2011. That's an awfully lame genocide by one of the most highly militarized nuclear states in existence. I really want to hear a serious answer to this: "Why don't the Palestinians suppress their native terrorists?" It is increasingly obvious that rocket attacks into Israeli cities are losing their efficiency. I haven't looked at the statistics in over a year, but I would be surprised if there were more than a dozen Israeli deaths since then. It only works to frighten the Israeli population and to give a convenient excuse for Bibi and people like him to fall back on. Are they cynically hoping that by provoking the Israelis into overreacting they could find more international sympathy?
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Nov 14, 2012 23:49
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shitthedd posted:Right, it's completely implausible that a nation would take seriously threats and violence against its citizens from foes sworn to its annihilation. So is Israel saying enough is enough? Because I can't find any recent significant (comparatively) aggression from Hamas that would warrant the string of airstrikes from Israel. Do you honestly not believe that the I/P conflict is in any way politicized?
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Nov 14, 2012 23:50
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