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Huskalator posted:I have always felt the Bloody Nine was part demon. As I recall Bayaz says something in the trilogy about Demons and humans crossbreeding way back in the past and that the offspring had immense power. He says that in the present there still may be humans around with a little demon blood in them and that even that little bit would make them much more powerful than the average human. IMO the Bloody Nine is part demon and this is even hinted at in Red Country. Where is that hinted at? Logen displays none of the traits typical of a human/demon crossbreed (immunity to pain, color-blindness, etc.), and in fact Shivers goes into a similar "holy poo poo the world's on fire kill everything" berserker rage in Best Served Cold. Logen is not a good man, even though one of his first chapters is him leaving behind a favorite cookpot to carry an injured man. Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he's a oval office.
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Dec 3, 2012 20:39
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Fly Molo posted:Where is that hinted at? Logen displays none of the traits typical of a human/demon crossbreed (immunity to pain, color-blindness, etc.), and in fact Shivers goes into a similar "holy poo poo the world's on fire kill everything" berserker rage in Best Served Cold. Shivers becomes a legit psycho by the end of BSC; realizes he's just a killer and embraces that reality. Logen is a vessel for whatever spirit/god/demon is controlling him and that really isn't debatable. Difference is by Red Country, Logen knows how to give in to it earlier. If you recall in the Last Argument of Kings, Logen is basically asking (talking to himself) the Bloody-Nine to take over before he fights Feared. And when Logen goes hulk, he doesn't feel pain Space Pussy fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Dec 3, 2012 |
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Dec 3, 2012 22:29
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Huskalator posted:I have always felt the Bloody Nine was part demon. As I recall Bayaz says something in the trilogy about Demons and humans crossbreeding way back in the past and that the offspring had immense power. He says that in the present there still may be humans around with a little demon blood in them and that even that little bit would make them much more powerful than the average human. IMO the Bloody Nine is part demon and this is even hinted at in Red Country. Being part demon was why he needed Ferro. The bloody nine was neededfor talking to spirits. If Logen were both, Bayaz would know, and wouldn't have gone through the trouble of saving Ferro.
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Dec 3, 2012 22:37
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Space Pussy posted:Shivers becomes a legit psycho by the end of BSC; realizes he's just a killer and embraces that reality. That's extremely debateable. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Logen is definitively being possessed by something, and I feel like it makes for a more powerful story if he isn't. Logen isn't a decent, or even lovely man being controlled by some outside force, the Bloody-Nine is who he is. When he isn't putting in the time and effort to try to be a good man, he's death incarnate, and that suits him. He feeds on the fear and respect other men feel for him, he loves that poo poo. Pretending to be Lamb, or Good Guy Logen is an act, and he feels relief every time he gives it up. The Bloody-Nine might be an alternate personality, or some kind of altered mental state, but I wouldn't say it's something external to Poor Lil' Logen. Ninefingers is proof that man has the potential to be more vicious than any demon Glustrod summoned from the darkness. His fight with The Feared was symbolic because it was a hardened killer making The Feared feel fear. It was mankind murdering a demigod and supplanting the old order, which has been a running theme throughout the series.
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Dec 4, 2012 00:22
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Fly Molo posted:That's extremely debateable. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Logen is definitively being possessed by something, and I feel like it makes for a more powerful story if he isn't. Logen isn't a decent, or even lovely man being controlled by some outside force, the Bloody-Nine is who he is. When he isn't putting in the time and effort to try to be a good man, he's death incarnate, and that suits him. He feeds on the fear and respect other men feel for him, he loves that poo poo. Pretending to be Lamb, or Good Guy Logen is an act, and he feels relief every time he gives it up. The Bloody-Nine might be an alternate personality, or some kind of altered mental state, but I wouldn't say it's something external to Poor Lil' Logen.
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Dec 4, 2012 00:25
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It seems an awfully big coincidence that Logen can talk to spirits but also has an unrelated condition where he goes berserk in combat. I've always felt there was something supernatural to the Bloody-Nine.Fly Molo posted:That's extremely debateable. I haven't seen anything to indicate that Logen is definitively being possessed by something, and I feel like it makes for a more powerful story if he isn't. Logen isn't a decent, or even lovely man being controlled by some outside force, the Bloody-Nine is who he is. When he isn't putting in the time and effort to try to be a good man, he's death incarnate, and that suits him. He feeds on the fear and respect other men feel for him, he loves that poo poo. Pretending to be Lamb, or Good Guy Logen is an act, and he feels relief every time he gives it up. The Bloody-Nine might be an alternate personality, or some kind of altered mental state, but I wouldn't say it's something external to Poor Lil' Logen. Meh, I disagree with this. The way the story is written, Logen has absolutely no control over the Bloody-Nine's actions or even control over when he switches, and with few exceptions he's always opposed to the switch and fearful of what's coming. He has no memory of anything the Bloody-Nine does. As he is transforming, the process is described as individual limbs being taken over by another person or entity; the hand swinging Logen's axe suddenly belongs to someone else and the voice coming out of his throat is not his own. It certainly suggests some kind of possession, supernatural or otherwise.
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Dec 4, 2012 00:46
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The Ninth Layer posted:It seems an awfully big coincidence that Logen can talk to spirits but also has an unrelated condition where he goes berserk in combat. I've always felt there was something supernatural to the Bloody-Nine. This is what I was talking about. There are times where Logen seems to be in control and a real bastard, towards the end of the trilogy when he's in the North he's clearly not in pure monster mode. He's at least a bit of a oval office, but if I remember correctly at the end of the The Blade Itself it shows him running from Practicals. He's clearly only interested in survival, he's running and trying his hardest to get away, only hurting folks when he has to. Then he switches and all he wants to do is hurt, he doesn't care about survival or anything else. I'm not a "poor Logen" guy, but it seems clear that The Bloody Nine is something he can't control, even though he takes all of the guilt for the Nine's actions.
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Dec 4, 2012 02:39
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My money's on psychological condition rather than possession. He's not possessed but is just having some kind of psychotic break. Which really doesn't do much to excuse all the mayhem he's committed when he's in control.
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Dec 4, 2012 04:08
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I don't remember him doing many cunty things when he wasn't the Bloody Nine (at least, none that couldn't be explained as responding to circumstance).
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Dec 4, 2012 04:18
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Logan always kind of struck me as being a man of principle to a point. There seems to be kind of a code of honor among the Northmen anyway, and anyone that tries to make friends and mentor someone like he did with Jezal, orbe a decent husband and father to Sly's family can't be all bad. Most of his trouble seems to come from when he goes fugue, and he's fully aware of and scared of that.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:00
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syphon posted:I don't remember him doing many cunty things when he wasn't the Bloody Nine (at least, none that couldn't be explained as responding to circumstance). I'm not disagreeing, just saying that the Bloody Nine still isn't the same person.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:31
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Grand Prize Winner posted:My money's on psychological condition rather than possession. He's not possessed but is just having some kind of psychotic break. Which really doesn't do much to excuse all the mayhem he's committed when he's in control. Yeah, this is what I think too. It also makes a more interesting story. Everything doesn't have to be supernatural. I read Red Country ages ago. I'll write something about it someday.
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Dec 4, 2012 07:45
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I think Joe has been pulling away from going too fantasy because it would detract from his commentary on human nature. If he made Logen's struggle be entirely caused by demon blood, it wouldn't be as "literary".
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Dec 4, 2012 08:03
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I think Logen has control to the point that if he really really doesn't want to be a murderous maniac, Bloody-Nine comes out only in times of great distress and he actively fights it, like in the trilogy. And on the other hand, if he really doesn't give a poo poo then it comes out whenever he wants, like in Red Country where he is Bloody-Nining it up in every fight pretty much. But it's obvious BN isn't his real personality.
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Dec 4, 2012 12:27
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DarkCrawler posted:I think Logen has control to the point that if he really really doesn't want to be a murderous maniac, Bloody-Nine comes out only in times of great distress and he actively fights it, like in the trilogy. And on the other hand, if he really doesn't give a poo poo then it comes out whenever he wants, like in Red Country where he is Bloody-Nining it up in every fight pretty much. But it's obvious BN isn't his real personality. I disagree about red country: I think a lot of the time you can't tell if it's the bloody nine or Logen. There are a few times like the fight with Glama Golden,where it's definately the bloody nine, but others like killing the ghost chief or nailing the raider to the bar where you can't be sure. That makes me lean towards the mental illness theory.
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Dec 4, 2012 20:20
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Hallucinogenic Toreador posted:I disagree about red country: I think a lot of the time you can't tell if it's the bloody nine or Logen. There are a few times like the fight with Glama Golden,where it's definately the bloody nine, but others like killing the ghost chief or nailing the raider to the bar where you can't be sure. That makes me lean towards the mental illness theory. I think at this point his normal personality is starting to merge with the Bloody-Nine which is why it's often hard to tell when he's being Logen and when he's being the Bloody-Nine. Sex Beef 2.0 fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Dec 4, 2012 |
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Dec 4, 2012 21:15
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I'm nearing the end of Red Country, will probably finish it tonight. If I had to give my rankings now I would say: Heroes>First Law>Red Country>BSC. Red Country is a good enough read so far, I can't really put my finger on what bugs me about it.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:37
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Red country has a languorous first half. Most of his books are tight and pacey and focussed and come blasting out the starting blocks, this one really does just wallow in it for about half the book. Personally I thought it absolutely paid off, but as with all media, ymmv.
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Dec 4, 2012 21:49
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Evfedu posted:Red country has a languorous first half. Most of his books are tight and pacey and focussed and come blasting out the starting blocks, this one really does just wallow in it for about half the book. I remember him posting a picture of the western books he was going to read to prepare for Red Country, and one of them was Lonesome Dove. Lonesome Dove takes place almost entirely during a cattle drive, and the first half of Red Country seemed to borrow a lot from it. The difference is that Lonesome Dove is all about the journey, and Red Country was more about the destination, so it loses a bit. (for the record both Lonesome Dove and Red Country are books I love)
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Dec 5, 2012 02:22
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Hallucinogenic Toreador posted:I disagree about red country: I think a lot of the time you can't tell if it's the bloody nine or Logen. There are a few times like the fight with Glama Golden,where it's definately the bloody nine, but others like killing the ghost chief or nailing the raider to the bar where you can't be sure. That makes me lean towards the mental illness theory. In the First Law Trilogy when Logen feels he's becoming Bloody-Nine he feels cold washing through him. Magical cold is associated with devils and the world below, and is similar enough to Ferros transformation to suggest a supernatural element on its own.
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Dec 5, 2012 19:33
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Hallucinogenic Toreador posted:I disagree about red country: I think a lot of the time you can't tell if it's the bloody nine or Logen. There are a few times like the fight with Glama Golden,where it's definately the bloody nine, but others like killing the ghost chief or nailing the raider to the bar where you can't be sure. That makes me lean towards the mental illness theory. It was extremely obvious he was the BN by the end of the bar scene when he has the noose in his hand. Your theory conveniently forgets he talks to spirits (which is extremely rare) and a very specific scene in the first book of the trilogy which clearly shows that supernatural poo poo is going on with Logen.
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Dec 6, 2012 02:35
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Space Pussy posted:a very specific scene in the first book of the trilogy which clearly shows that supernatural poo poo is going on with Logen. I've only read the books once, what scene is this?
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Dec 6, 2012 04:21
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:I've only read the books once, what scene is this? Not even going to spoiler this because it's in the first 50 pages of the first book, he breaths his campfire in, "stores it under his tongue" and uses it later. Joe probably realized how hard it would be to introduce real danger to a character with an ability like that. I get the impression he tried to forget it and hopes everyone else did too  Also there is the whole hulking out, laughing at mortal wounds and possessing inhuman speed and strength thing. The Gunslinger fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Dec 6, 2012 |
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Dec 6, 2012 05:04
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So I'm re-reading Best Served Cold for the first time, and I'm noticing that Shivers has a lot of close calls with losing his eye throughout the book. Of course on the first read, I didn't pick up on it...but on the re-read, they all stick out and each time I feel bad for him, knowing what is coming. . Spoilered it, just to be safe. I re-read the First Law before Red Country, and am doing BSC and Heroes again now. I enjoyed Red Country a lot, though I found the pacing to be less tight than usual for Abercrombie.
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Dec 6, 2012 08:10
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Above Our Own posted:He literally shrugs off mortal wounds and performs feats not only of preternatural skill, but also of superhuman strength. I think it's best left ambiguous because I agree that it makes the narrative stronger to have conflicted characters instead of some generic variation on "good guy forced to do evil because of demonic influence". He's not possessed, he's batman.
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Dec 6, 2012 10:12
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The Gunslinger posted:I get the impression he tried to forget it and hopes everyone else did too This is kind of silly, if he realised it while he was writing the book he could have just edited it out, it's explained in that very scene that spirits are leaving the world and he says something to the effect of "This will be the last time we talk."
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Dec 6, 2012 10:42
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Street Soldier posted:This is kind of silly, if he realised it while he was writing the book he could have just edited it out, it's explained in that very scene that spirits are leaving the world and he says something to the effect of "This will be the last time we talk." Joe's writing and characterization grew quite a bit between books is what I was referring to. There are a lot of weird, one off things in the books. TFL Things like the giant shanka beast wearing armor they encounter underground that is never mentioned before or after again. Just my interpretation but it was his first set of books so he was trying out new ideas and such. Anyway it's been awhile since I read that section but IIRC his ability to breath fire wasn't directly connected to the spirits, he just used that to actually summon them or something along those lines.
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Dec 6, 2012 13:33
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The Gunslinger posted:Joe's writing and characterization grew quite a bit between books is what I was referring to. There are a lot of weird, one off things in the books. TFL Things like the giant shanka beast wearing armor they encounter underground that is never mentioned before or after again. Just my interpretation but it was his first set of books so he was trying out new ideas and such. He actually traps the spirit in the fire under his tongue and releases it during a fight later in the book so it was actually directly connected to his powers over spirits.
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Dec 6, 2012 14:58
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Clinton1011 posted:He actually traps the spirit in the fire under his tongue and releases it during a fight later in the book so it was actually directly connected to his powers over spirits. Ahh, fair enough my memory is hazy, I'm about due for a reread. I still think he hadn't fully thought through how the early stuff might affect plot points and characterization later on, it's a common thing with first books and fantasy authors. Giving them a bit too much in one respect then having to claw back a bit later kind of thing.
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Dec 6, 2012 19:08
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The Gunslinger posted:Ahh, fair enough my memory is hazy, I'm about due for a reread. I still think he hadn't fully thought through how the early stuff might affect plot points and characterization later on, it's a common thing with first books and fantasy authors. Giving them a bit too much in one respect then having to claw back a bit later kind of thing. Well since the spirits are all going to sleep and leaving this world we could just chock it up to no spirits being around for him to do those type of tricks anymore.
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Dec 6, 2012 19:14
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So I heard that once of the editions of The Heroes has some sort of short story with Gorst. Anyone have details about that? Gorst is awesome but I really didn't want to buy The Heroes again just to read it.
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Dec 9, 2012 05:31
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Just finished it. Enjoyed the three one shot books as a way to set up different characters and situations for the next trilogy. I'm going to assume: Logen gets roped into some Bayaz related trouble. Perhaps being forced into some cross over head kicking action with Shivers. Really love that they've set the tone for the war in the north, the positions of Styria and Gurkhul to an extent. The fact that there is a Shanka resurgence in the Far Country. All sorts of neat poo poo! I'm sad that Cosca isn't going to be around to profiteer off it all though. I am getting a sneaking suspicion the next trilogy will revolve around a lot of new characters and our favourites will be significantly older though. Like I imagine a weathered Monza in maybe 15 years time or something, but she won't be the central Styrian and new characters will have to deal with all the poo poo caused in the one off books. However it goes, it's going to be cool as gently caress. One sad note is that if Joe goes way forward we might not get much Glokta. Will be interesting to see what kind of guy Jezal is (I'm assuming he's doing his best to actually be a reasonable person, but Bayaz...).
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Dec 10, 2012 03:33
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J Bjelke-Postersen posted:Logen gets roped into some Bayaz related trouble. Perhaps being forced into some cross over head kicking action with Shivers. referring to cross-over comment: God drat it if a Logen/Shivers unwilling buddy-cop action wouldn't be the most fun to read thing ever. Throw Gorst in there and you've got an unholy trinity of  , and the best part is they'd all hate each other.
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Dec 10, 2012 05:56
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:referring to cross-over comment: God drat it if a Logen/Shivers unwilling buddy-cop action wouldn't be the most fun to read thing ever. Throw Gorst in there and you've got an unholy trinity of Shivers round house kicks a Shanka at Logen. Logen catches it one handed by the neck and choke slams it into the ground. Gorst curb stomps its head with a huge steel boot. They three way fist bump. The Gears of Law Trilogy begins.
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Dec 10, 2012 07:15
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silly posted:I'm nearing the end of Red Country, will probably finish it tonight. If I had to give my rankings now I would say: Heroes>First Law>Red Country>BSC. Red Country is a good enough read so far, I can't really put my finger on what bugs me about it. My problem with it was that Abercrombie obviously wanted to write a western, and so it felt to me like the plot was there to string together all the iconic western scenes he wanted to write. Some of it felt fairly railroaded to me as a way of shoehorning in a specific thing he wanted to include, and didn't always feel like a natural plot progression like the running (stage)coach battle towards the end - that really felt unnecessary to me, but I also felt the same way about the weird Native American replacement tribes, the violent ungoverned mining town, and the "peaceful townsfolk outsmart the desperados with a trick" gambit. I might like it more on a second read, but on the first read it didn't feel like it had anything particularly novel on it - it read like a greatest tropes of western stories compilation featuring Abercrombie's characters.
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Dec 14, 2012 00:11
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Notahippie posted:it read like a greatest tropes of western stories compilation featuring Abercrombie's characters. I agree and while this didn't deaden my enjoyment of the book I felt it. Still, a lot of the stuff you mentioned was a lot of fun and I really liked Shy and Temple. I thought they were good western characters.
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Dec 14, 2012 06:08
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Just finished the first book of the trilogy and my own little trip report/review: [Vague spoiler warning on this whole thing] The Overall: Part 1: "People doing unrelated things, I guess they are gonna end up together somehow? This is kinda generic. Also, what a sausage fest" Middle/Part 2: "Token woman! Oh, I guess she's the rogue party member (if a fierce one). How unexpected. A tiny tiny little bit of world building. This is turning even more generic the more time spent on it. And uh, is there an antagonist in this book?" Last 200 pages or so: "Finally getting somewhere. Ooooh Eaters, bring on the Taken- well how about mid bosses? No? Just mooks then I guess. Well, at least it was vaguely threatening. There aint gonna be an antagonist in this book is there? I take on my robe and wizard hat moment: x2 (seriously, "Wizard / Magi", that's what you are going with?) Hey, he's actually taking the time to describe the big rear end city they are in. Oh, he stopped. Hey, time for some David Lynch poo poo- oh, he stopped. And the point of that was... ? Maybe later I guess. I guess that's the big bad they'll fight... in another book. Fighter confirmed for party structure. Oh, great. Now he's making the supporting characters dislikable too. There are stairs in my house moment: 1. I guess this is the climactic fight...? Why are they fighting now again? Berserker confirmed for party structure. Oh, I guess it's over. Naked Santa moment: 1. Joe: You may want to rethink how you write about fencing because this is some pretty vague poo poo. Characters: Logen: Snikt bub. Glokta: Have yet to master the main antagonist, stairs & teeth prostetic technology. Oh yeah, I guess there was something about Mercers too. Jezal: World longest training montage (also pointless, considering how that turned out) & ~True Love~. Bayaz and chronies: Evil Santa and his merry gang, probably a much more interesting story than what we got. The Wests: You may want to consider leading a revolution of the proletariat  Named Gang: Pretty bad rear end. Your plans leave something to be desired though. Gorst: Can I ride your shoulders too?  Sult: Considered a career at Disney The Master Maker: Leading a Heavy Metal Band in Hell. Summary: Glen Cook likeness: 3.5/5 *Glen Cook, but minus the cool mysterious parts. Number of Fucks spoken: 76 Favourite gently caress: *No, gently caress YOUR GOD* Numbers of "Gory deaths": Like, 13. At least. Got to work at it to approach Spartacus levels though! "Writer would rather write about wrasslin' than wimpy sword fighting": Yeah. Shock-deaths-that-are-rather-pointless: ...1? I expected more actually. Unlikable characters: 99% This-Book-Takes-It-Time-To-Set-Things-Up-Longer-Than-Robert-Jordan-Check: Yes. Modern fantasy rating: 93%? Popcorn and Pretzels Fantasy book: Oh yes. Likely Rereads: Probably None. Number of pages that could be cut: 250, or 50%. Jesus that was a lot of filler. Well, that's a lot of criticism, but did I enjoy it? ...I suppose I did. Mediocre, but fun and an easy read. Not sure if I'll buy the next book, but I'm getting the feeling it will be much better than this one and actually have some decent pay-off. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 13:28
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Your post was so disorganized that I don't know even half of what you're talking about and I just read the whole trilogy two months ago. With that said, if you liked the book at all you should keep going. The first book is mostly a setup book. The Ninth Layer fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 15, 2012 |
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Dec 15, 2012 17:04
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I hear a lot of people saying things like "the first book was a bit meh" and "whole lot of setup and not a lot of payoff" and I honestly just don't understand. I mean if you aren't On Board the by the time Glokta falls downstairs I can't imagine we're reading the same book.
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Dec 15, 2012 18:03
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quote:Unlikable characters: 99% I've heard many complaints about the trilogy, but this is not one of them. I was in love with both Ninefingers and Glokta after the first 50 pages. As the others did, I'd suggest reading the whole trilogy. The first book is mostly setup, although if you seriously found the characters that boring, maybe not.
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Dec 15, 2012 21:20
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