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Luck counts for a lot of it, but bear in mind that the more you fall down the more you're going to get hurt. A lot of newbies make the mistake of thinking that because they have the stronger team they can just throw their players at enemies with impunity, lining them up to get knocked down over and over again and then wondering why they're losing the casualty war. Also, getting pushed off the sidelines hurts and Norse are especially good at that. Leaving your guys close to the sidelines is another good way to wind up getting bashy teams out-bashed.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:48
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Away all Goats posted:Is there some secret to injuries/KOs other than luck? There's also a large snowball effect. If, for instance, one of your linemen gets hit by a rock on the kickoff and KO'd, you've already got fewer players on the field than your opponent. If he then knocks out or badly injures another on that same turn, that's two other players he can dedicate to getting assists against your players or punching them, and two more that you have to worry about when punching back.
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Feb 27, 2013 03:40
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The hidden curse of AV9 teams is that you kind of rely on not losing guys early, if your opponent gets lucky and gets 1 or 2 players off the pitch in the first couple of turns you're usually in a bad place because you lack the movement and agility to work around your player disadvantage. AV7 teams kind of expect to lose players right from the start of the game and they mostly can deal with it more easily.
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Feb 27, 2013 10:17
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That said, Orcs are the most agile AV9 team so it's not that bad for them. Get a few players with dodge or +AG and you can do surprising things with them. But still, sometimes with AV9 you get into the mentality of "I can survive anything!" and you don't worry about getting punched ever. But when you're fighting Norse, everyone has Block and as Orcs, only your blitzers do. And then they have Frenzy, so you get crowd surfed. And then they have a werewolf so you get clawed. Basically what I'm saying is that Norse are designed to murder your players, so even with AV9, you should maybe avoid getting into an all-out brawl because you might end up on the losing side, at least in the early TVs. Once you get to the mid-to-late TVs, you get more guard and mighty blow and block, and you can pretty much always out-murder the Norse. edit: My bad, the norse werewolves, or Ulfwereners, don't have claw. Thank god. But their Yhetee does. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 10:22
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Circle Nine posted:3 more entirely new Cyanide created teams, 2 more star players, still no cards, Slann, or Chaos Pact. Chaos Dwarves are also removed by an unintended bug. All match matching and online matches are now also set to 30 second turns and the only way to enable longer turns in buried deep in menus. Is there an ETA on a fix for this bug do you happen to know?
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Feb 27, 2013 11:43
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Monkahchi posted:Is there an ETA on a fix for this bug do you happen to know? When Bloodbowl 2 - Ultimate Edition comes out in 2015. I hope they flesh it out more, but with Cyanide, who can tell.
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Feb 27, 2013 12:16
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My friend reinstalled this and we played a few matches last night, I think his exact words were "Blood Bowl is where friendships come to die" as I banned both his witch elves and his assassin from the match in the inducements round.
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Feb 27, 2013 12:38
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So I finally played some pub matches for the first time. Build a fresh Khorne team for the occasion, and... they're really, really fun. I specifically didn't buy a Bloodthirster, instead opting to max out on Bloodletters and Heralds, and it's nice. 4 non-frenzy players combined with two phenomenal blitzers (and ball carriers). The pit fighters really do suck, but they're pretty much there to die anyway. I don't know how to play defense with Khorne though. I've yet to win a game due to making major mistakes, which is a correctable thing, but on defense I feel behind from the beginning. Just feels like I'm lacking in AV and getting ground into oblivion. Thank goodness for Herald bullshit on offense.
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Feb 27, 2013 12:46
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^^^^^^ I Like the Khorne team, they are very susceptible to the dice, but I like being able to move the enemy around as I like to hamper them. That's how I play my defenses, I use the fact I'm going to be moving players two squares to break cages like eggs, then I hit them with my bloodletters or heralds - or if I'm feeling nasty my block Bloodthirster. Captain Diarrhoea posted:My friend reinstalled this and we played a few matches last night, I think his exact words were "Blood Bowl is where friendships come to die" as I banned both his witch elves and his assassin from the match in the inducements round. Yeah, playing random internet people (even goons) is much better, because not only can they not hear you calling them lucky sons of pestulant whores, but they won't hold it against you. Rage is a part of this game, because at some point every dodge you make it going to fail and every block you have will be skulls. I had a game on sunday where I had eight double skulls. Half of which came immediately after I rerolled the previous set. Then yesterday my luck turned and I ko/stunned eight humans on turn one with my Khorne team. Grey Hunter fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 12:57
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The only thing I really dislike about Khorne is bloodletter AV7. You would have thought that for a bashy team with no block or dodge on the initial lineup they would at least have AV8+ over the whole team. I guess they didn't want you to have easy AV8 blodge access on a positional with regen. The whole roster is kind of weird because technically all their positionals are really good value, but the benefit of having horns and juggernaut everywhere goes down as you add more players with those skills and it ends up being bloaty, which is why they don't pay full cost for those skills in the first place.
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Feb 27, 2013 13:22
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I suspect the secret with Khorne is that bloodletters aren't your key players: the pit fighters are. Because you can get them guard and block and they're cheap and can move decently well and your opponents mostly ignore them and they have decent armor. Bloodletters are your ball carriers, because they can't be frenzy-trapped but can still blitz free of a mark by using their horns and then not following up. They're also useful as cage corners for the same reason. And of course, since they have regen as well as access to your apoth, they're easier to rescue when they get injured due to their low AV, but you still wind up with them off the field and that's no good especially if you've concentrated most of your SPPs on them. But by spreading out your skills, you can use pit fighters to score too (and don't mind skilling them up) and that makes it much harder for your opponent to defend against your running game. On defense I like to leave them free to provide assists on frenzies - position them so that the follow-up block is also a 2db for your pit fighters. If a pit fighter rolls skulls, it's not such a big deal because you have more of them. Blitzing is mostly for your bloodthirster, or sometimes a herald (especially when a crowdsurf opportunity presents itself). The heralds should never be used as ball carriers or cage corners on offense because of the frenzy problem, unless you have no other option. On offense I like to use them to present a potential passing play by running them deep. They also threaten frenzy surfs so you can run your cage up a sideline. Use the thirster to break open a zone defense, and if you get too bogged down, blitz a herald free, run him into the end zone, and go for a ag3 pass. Khorne start out difficult if you take too few rerolls, by the way. I think the best starting lineup is four bloodletters, seven pit fighters, three rerolls, and an apothecary. Don't save pit fighters from death, preserve the apothecary for keeping your bloodletters alive, and you'll rapidly get the cash to buy your heralds and eventually a thirster. In the meantime you'll get levels on those pit fighters, which is really important (take guard and then more guard and then more guard, take block when you can) and the bloodletters (take block). To control TV, fire/don't replace pit fighters as they get killed (no regen and you don't save unskilled pit fighters with your apoth). Anyway this is my current feeling. I need to play some more with them but right now they're my favorite team. Once you develop a good feel for setting up frenzies so they don't wind up 1db/-2db traps, the team becomes a hell of a lot of fun, even if they're not among the very best teams at winning games. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 18:21
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Unless they changed something while I wasn't looking pit fighters only have S access on doubles. Being able to stack up on guard would be a big boost to them what with all the frenzy.
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Feb 27, 2013 18:43
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RabidWeasel posted:Unless they changed something while I wasn't looking pit fighters only have S access on doubles. Being able to stack up on guard would be a big boost to them what with all the frenzy. This is correct, Pit Fighters have general and passing access.
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Feb 27, 2013 19:33
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Bloodletters are GAS normals and are a close second to the thirster as the best positional on the team. Heralds are basically a straight upgrade to pit fighters. Like Chaos, Khorne really pick up around 1500ish TV. E- The oddity of Khorne is that they're a bash team who benefit from a spread out pitch and are not as successful at close quarters punching. They're a way better team than what I was expecting when they were announced GNU Order fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Feb 27, 2013 |
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Feb 27, 2013 20:36
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I think a lot of people underestimate Frenzy, it's a double-edged sword but it's a really really good skill. Seven frenzy players is probably not an optimal number but it's not a pure handicap like a lot of people seem to treat it as.
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Feb 27, 2013 21:10
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cknoor's been recording his playthrough with a khorne team and through watching it I've been thinking that maybe the team ain't as bad as we thought. Then I remember that av7 means that most of them will get murdered right and proper a lot and frenzy is terrible en mass.
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Feb 27, 2013 21:32
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Brainamp posted:cknoor's been recording his playthrough with a khorne team and through watching it I've been thinking that maybe the team ain't as bad as we thought. Then I remember that av7 means that most of them will get murdered right and proper a lot and frenzy is terrible en mass. Only the bloodletters are AV7, and they have regeneration. Everything else is AV8, except the thirster, who is AV9 /w regen.
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Feb 27, 2013 21:44
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Khorne is straight up scary in mm, you can keep the tv really low with the easy acces to a leader rr and you only need 2 lvls on the BT before you have a claw POMB'er.
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Feb 27, 2013 21:56
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Gabriel Pope posted:I think a lot of people underestimate Frenzy, it's a double-edged sword but it's a really really good skill. Seven frenzy players is probably not an optimal number but it's not a pure handicap like a lot of people seem to treat it as. Done right and in optimal conditions, frenzy can nearly double the number of two-die blocks you throw at an opponent. Or more accurately, it converts your pushes into additional 2dbs, so probably more like an increase of 30% or so in the number of block dice you throw. In addition, it scares the poo poo out of your opponent unless he's got plenty of sidestep/stand firm; by eliminating a two-column-wide strip of the pitch on both sides, you force him to cage/run down the middle and that means you can more easily prevent him from advancing a cage at all. Pit fighters have AV8 and you have an apoth. In that respect they're already as good as human linemen. Add in the frenzy and I guess you have to subtract the access to General and they're, in my opinion, still a notch or two better. Sokani posted:This is correct, Pit Fighters have general and passing access. I guess I've been rolling doubles enough that I'd forgotten which of block and guard they had native access to. When you have lots of frenzy, guard is the most important utility skill you can pick up, but block is easily second-important and I'd be happy to run a full roster of five or six pit fighters all of which have nothing but block. Block + frenzy is amazing. It's almost as good as tackle at taking down defenders who only have dodge. And the best thing is getting block on a player with frenzy and juggernaut, because now you can choose when you want to push (to surf) and when you want to take the both down (to just punch the opponent into the dirt). The ideal bloodthirster has block, break tackle, and mighty blow. Amazing. (I'm not a fan of piling on with a player who has Wild Animal.)
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Feb 27, 2013 22:35
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IMO piling on is essential on any player you expect to hurt the other team. Most teams are forced down the middle against khorne so even if the bloodthirster piles on he can usualy find somebody to blitz the next turn. I run my khorne team with 9 pit fighters, 1 herald and a bloodthirster.I dont have any bloodletters as they are way to fragile imo. Frenzy is a outstanding skill when you get it on discount like the pit fighters do.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:47
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ZigZag posted:IMO piling on is essential on any player you expect to hurt the other team. Most teams are forced down the middle against khorne so even if the bloodthirster piles on he can usualy find somebody to blitz the next turn. I run my khorne team with 9 pit fighters, 1 herald and a bloodthirster.I dont have any bloodletters as they are way to fragile imo. I will pick up one Bloodletter and give him strip ball and tackle so he will be the ultimate ball retreival specialist.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:50
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deathbagel posted:I will pick up one Bloodletter and give him strip ball and tackle so he will be the ultimate ball retreival specialist. In a tournament setting you can do a lot of fun stuff with the bloodletters because of their amazing skill access, but in match making i would consider it tv bloat.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:55
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You mean the unit that has natural GAS access meaning any skill they pick up is going to be 20k is bloat in a format where you can conceivably play forever and pick up a huge glut of skills? Oh and also letters are the only Khorne unit that doesn't have frenzy which is a godsend if you really can't afford to punch a second time.
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Feb 28, 2013 00:27
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Yeah 40 tv (Strip Ball+tackle) is equal to another POMB player on the other team, khorne can’t stand up to developed bash teams, especially those with claw. Above 1500 tv is claw POMB land and a khorne team gets expensive with the demons on it.
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Feb 28, 2013 01:17
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Oh you were talking specifically about taking SB + tackle. I thought you were calling letters themselves bloaty. Don't mind me
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Feb 28, 2013 01:29
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ZigZag posted:IMO piling on is essential on any player you expect to hurt the other team. Most teams are forced down the middle against khorne so even if the bloodthirster piles on he can usualy find somebody to blitz the next turn. I run my khorne team with 9 pit fighters, 1 herald and a bloodthirster.I dont have any bloodletters as they are way to fragile imo. Don't get PO on the Thirster it just limits his movement and you lose TZs that you need to get good use out of that frenzy. I blitz with my Thirster a lot and I would never give him PO he's just too good for a skill like that. Besides, that piece is at the time he has the option to get PO probably like 1/4 of your total TV. You don't leave a player like that on the ground for no reason ever. You should be getting some Bloodletters, they are great value for money and vital if you're up against a player that knows how to use all that frenzy against you. Khorne is a great team right now, but that's mostly due to the fact that many coaches aren't that experienced at setting frenzy traps. I am winning way more games than I should with Khorne and that is mostly down to the fact that most coaches have no clue what to do against them.
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Feb 28, 2013 02:39
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My chaos team just fought a norse team at around 1100 tv. The norse team consisted of 10 linemen, 1 berserker, and 6 team rerolls The guy with the mindset that 6 team rerolls was a good idea naturally did nothing but throw out 1 die blocks, and then get mad at the dice when they failed too many. I think the game decided to give me a nice easy recovery game after 2 beastmen died last game.
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Feb 28, 2013 03:33
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cKnoor posted:Don't get PO on the Thirster it just limits his movement and you lose TZs that you need to get good use out of that frenzy. I blitz with my Thirster a lot and I would never give him PO he's just too good for a skill like that. Besides, that piece is at the time he has the option to get PO probably like 1/4 of your total TV. You don't leave a player like that on the ground for no reason ever. I completely disagre with this, i went for a claw POMB’er on my Khorne min/max team and so far i’m 22-1-5 with it, which is an ok win rate. IMO piling on is key to bash play in mm. You want to be piling on on every stun you get except for the extreme cases where there is something more important to do than removing players from the field. When you do a 2-1 grind you have the first couple of turns to pile on since you are not really defending and when you stall there is again lots of room for piling on. Piling on with the thirster is also great since he is an unreliable blocker and he needs to blitz in order to move. IMO it’s the only way to use him otherwise he is just a really expensive roadblock. ZigZag fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Feb 28, 2013 |
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Feb 28, 2013 04:03
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ZigZag posted:I completely disagre with this, i went for a claw POMB’er on my Khorne min/max team and so far i’m 22-1-5 with it, which is an ok win rate. IMO piling on is key to bash play in mm. You want to be piling on on every stun you get except for the extreme cases where there is something more important to do than removing players from the field. When you do a 2-1 grind you have the first couple of turns to pile on since you are not really defending and when you stall there is again lots of room for piling on. Piling on with the thirster is also great since he is an unreliable blocker and he needs to blitz in order to move. IMO it’s the only way to use him otherwise he is just a really expensive roadblock. A prone bloodthirster can move 3 spaces. And with frenzy being a mandatory followup if you blitz someone 3 spaces away you leave yourself open to GFIs, and GFIs are literally Hitler even when you're not using a loner. So you can only safely blitz someone 2 spaces away. That makes it really easy to stay out of reach.
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Feb 28, 2013 05:39
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Why do people try to keep their Team Values low?
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Feb 28, 2013 07:08
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Zombie #246 posted:Why do people try to keep their Team Values low? Well the higher your tv the the higher your opponents tv will be (or they get more inducements), and if your tv is being inflated by inefficient bloat then you are basically playing at a disadvantage. Managing your teams tv is part of bloodbowl. You don't need to be a complete sperg about it though if you're just playing casually.
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Feb 28, 2013 07:12
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Zombie #246 posted:Why do people try to keep their Team Values low? In a matchmaking environment your team gets paired up against teams of similar Team Value. A lean, efficient veteran team optimized for ~1300 TV is going to wind up matched against other 1300ish TV teams, most of which will be new up-and-coming teams (or badly mangled broken down veteran teams) that don't have the skills to compete with a min-maxed team. In a tournament environment you have to play the other tourney members regardless of TV, and when you're facing fully developed 2000+ TV teams it doesn't really matter how well built your 1300 TV team is, so there's not much point to min-maxing. You still want to avoid taking unnecessary TV bloat since that will skew inducements against you, but there's no incentive to outright avoid development to avoid pushing yourself out of your min-maxed sweet spot.
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Feb 28, 2013 07:19
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ZigZag posted:I completely disagre with this, i went for a claw POMB’er on my Khorne min/max team and so far i’m 22-1-5 with it, which is an ok win rate. IMO piling on is key to bash play in mm. You want to be piling on on every stun you get except for the extreme cases where there is something more important to do than removing players from the field. When you do a 2-1 grind you have the first couple of turns to pile on since you are not really defending and when you stall there is again lots of room for piling on. Piling on with the thirster is also great since he is an unreliable blocker and he needs to blitz in order to move. IMO it’s the only way to use him otherwise he is just a really expensive roadblock. Let's start with this bit, win rates in Cyanide Blood bowl means next to nothing but let it be known that I have yet to be beaten by a Khorne team. Probably due to me knowing how to play against a frenzy. Just because newer coaches doesn't know how to counter doesn't mean the team is inherently good. All it means it that people need more practice when playing against it. Gabriel Pope covered the reason why you shouldn't PO with the Thirster well enough, I will however mention two things. If you decide to PO me with your Thirster then I'd probably just frenzy trap you next turn (or run away so you can't reach me). Thus giving you the choice of making a risky move or leaving him down. There are counters to frenzy traps, but the point is that by POing you're playing risky for very little gain, especially when the Thirster doesn't need to. ZigZag posted:Piling on with the thirster is also great since he is an unreliable blocker and he needs to blitz in order to move. IMO it’s the only way to use him otherwise he is just a really expensive roadblock. This is just an argument from ignorance, the Thirster is probably the most reliable Big Guy you have out the gate, and you can get him even more reliable with proper usage and skills. If you see him as an expensive roadblock then you're not seeing the guys true potential, making you PO argument even worse. Gabriel Pope posted:In a matchmaking environment your team gets paired up against teams of similar Team Value. A lean, efficient veteran team optimized for ~1300 TV is going to wind up matched against other 1300ish TV teams, most of which will be new up-and-coming teams (or badly mangled broken down veteran teams) that don't have the skills to compete with a min-maxed team. I would also argue that some people are relying too much on keeping their TV lean, having a lean TV1300 team is good and all, but a bloated TV1300 team can still beat such a team. Yes the bloat would be at a disadvantage, but not enough of a disadvantage to counter coaching/play experience. Edit: TV management becomes more important the higher TV bracket you play is, in low TV play it's less important. cKnoor fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Feb 28, 2013 |
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Feb 28, 2013 10:22
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How active is the Goon League now? I'm interested in some online play, but is it worthwhile? As it'll be a new, low value team, am I just going to get stomped repeatedly?
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Feb 28, 2013 11:54
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If you mean giant goon league then its fairly active. Though the fights are set up on the irc channel.
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Feb 28, 2013 12:08
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Well, if you're new you're might well get roughed up a bit by veteran goons, but it'll be because of the difference in player experience, not because we only have much higher-value teams. There will always be someone with a newish team they'll want to smack you with.
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Feb 28, 2013 12:58
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cKnoor posted:This is just an argument from ignorance, the Thirster is probably the most reliable Big Guy you have out the gate, and you can get him even more reliable with proper usage and skills. If you see him as an expensive roadblock then you're not seeing the guys true potential, making you PO argument even worse. The thirster is only reliable on the blitz, when blocking he is just as bad as the rest (at the blocking part, not losing his tz is still better than really stupid and bonehead), and no skill thats not a double can change that. Sure you give the bloodthirster guard and block around him with frenzy and you dont pile on recklessly, but when the opportunity is there. I don’t care that he can only blitz 2 squares since the cage dosent move much faster. Piling on is a reliable way to remove players, in mm where teams don’t usually have subs it’s much more important than in league play and in a match you get a lot of opportunities for piling on that doesn’t put your team at a disadvantage.
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Feb 28, 2013 14:04
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ZigZag posted:The thirster is only reliable on the blitz, when blocking he is just as bad as the rest (at the blocking part, not losing his tz is still better than really stupid and bonehead), and no skill thats not a double can change that. Sure you give the bloodthirster guard and block around him with frenzy and you dont pile on recklessly, but when the opportunity is there. No one is going to leave a cage 2 squares away from a downed Thirster though. And guard is exactly the skill that makes the Thrister the most reliable as he never loses his TZs and on a team with so much frenzy you need guard and you need it early. I base my argument on the fact that I want to get as much use of the Thirster as possible. You seem to base yours on just 1 blitz. Once again, you're arguing from preceptions about matchmaking rather than looking at the whole picture. Can you make a bashy Thirster that works well in random MM at the moment? Sure, is it a strategy that works well in the long run? No, it's easy to counter and way to risky for such a high value piece to be doing. The Thirster is almost never going to blitz a piece that's worth more than him, so putting him in the dirt is just a waste of TV. For reason we've gone over already.
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Feb 28, 2013 15:18
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Random Hajile posted:Well, if you're new you're might well get roughed up a bit by veteran goons, but it'll be because of the difference in player experience, not because we only have much higher-value teams. There will always be someone with a newish team they'll want to smack you with. I used to play the tabletop version, are the same strategies dominant? Caging etc. ? I'll sign up, see how it goes.
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Feb 28, 2013 15:22
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Depends which ruleset you used to play. The basics are the same though, caging and grinding, elfin bullshit.
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Feb 28, 2013 15:26
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