|
Good Will Hrunting posted:Hiring folks: How long is the ideal cover letter to you? I feel like I'm way over-thinking some of these and pissing away my time when I could be doing something more valuable like working on my independent projects. A few paragraphs are enough. It's just an introduction -- "here's who I am, my general skills, and why I want to work with you"
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2013 21:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 08:03 |
|
|
Yeah 2 paragraphs which is about 4 sentences. A bit about you and your background, highlight relevant experience, and how you feel you can benefit them/why you are a good match for the role/company. Hi im unixbeard, attached please find my CV for the position of web developer. I live in sydney, have a degree in CS and have been developing webapps in django for the last 2 years. I see your products are focussed on goat headers in albania. Aside from my extensive experience as a developer, my father was a goat hearder giving me a good understanding of goats and goat related prducts and services. Please take a look at my CV and get in touch, you can reach me on 5422345666 Regards
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2013 00:40
|
|
|
Good Will Hrunting posted:Hiring folks: How long is the ideal cover letter to you? I feel like I'm way over-thinking some of these and pissing away my time when I could be doing something more valuable like working on my independent projects. Overall, 2-4 paragraphs is plenty. I've done a lot of hiring for a largish company. Here's my experience when posting a job Post a position. Check mail the next day. Have 250 messages, mostly from people completely unqualified that didn't even read the job description. So my job became to weed out as many as I could, as quickly as I could. During that process, the cover letter is the only thing looked at. Here's how to stay in the race in a situation like that: Put your cover letter in the body of the message and attached as a PDF. The body is for my quick-scan. The PDF is for printing out and handing to HR. In the subject line, make sure to reference the exact job title / reference number / whatever. In the first sentence, make sure to mention why you want to work for that company, and mention it by name. In the first paragraph state a skill or two that you have that was in the job description. In the past, HR did that initial screening for me, but they turned out to be pretty incompetent at it. I'm sure is't still done that way it is in other places. They essentially just do keyword searching. So make sure to put all of the "required skills" somewhere. Even if it's just "I've read about JXBTS and think I could pick it up quickly". Spell or abbreviate them exactly the way they are in the job description.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2013 18:25
|
|
|
Gounads posted:They essentially just do keyword searching. Not only will they do keyword searching, there are programs that do this automatically now. You can be rejected without your application ever seeing human eyes, so yeah, make sure you have a bunch of matching keywords.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2013 19:53
|
|
|
If I could get some feedback on my resume I would greatly appreciate it. I went for a simple look, but it may be too simple and I am undecided about it. Also, I am not sure whether or not I should include an objective or summary of qualifications at the top. I feel these are kind of redundant with the use of a cover letter, but maybe it wouldn't hurt? Lastly, any advice on the content would be helpful as well. I may be selling my self short even though my internship was kind of a waste of time. Thanks again for any feedback! (I know all my info can be found between my email address and github... oh well!) Don Mega fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Mar 14, 2013 |
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 00:11
|
|
|
I've got an interview in the Bay area on Monday. Any last-minute advice? I fully intend to keep my big mouth shut about free food and salary. Speaking of which, I'm filling out a form asking for my previous and current salaries and reasons for leaving the employers. Only a complete sucker would fill these out, right? I'm kind of surprised they even ask.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 03:40
|
|
|
dingy dimples posted:Only a complete sucker would fill these out, right? Right. Well, not the reasons for leaving, maybe.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 03:53
|
|
|
shrughes posted:Right. Well, not the reasons for leaving, maybe. Yeah, I think the thread's been pretty unanimous on this point, but I wanted to check my head real quick. I'm still surprised they would even give me the opportunity to make such an amateur mistake. Anyway I haven't left my current employer, so that bit's sorted. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 04:07
|
|
|
dingy dimples posted:I've got an interview in the Bay area on Monday. Any last-minute advice? I fully intend to keep my big mouth shut about free food and salary. If it is a full day affair, make sure you eat something for breakfast before you head out. It's easy to be nervous and skip, but it can be an long and exhausting day, and you don't want to crash because you didn't eat anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 04:29
|
|
|
dingy dimples posted:I've got an interview in the Bay area on Monday. Any last-minute advice? I fully intend to keep my big mouth shut about free food and salary. Have something better to say than "the internet told me not to say these things." If this question is asked on the form, it's going to come up in the interview, especially if you don't answer, sometimes very aggressively. Glassdoor.com the position and company so you have a real idea of what the number should be.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 04:41
|
|
|
hieronymus posted:Have something better to say than "the internet told me not to say these things." If this question is asked on the form, it's going to come up in the interview, especially if you don't answer, sometimes very aggressively. Glassdoor.com the position and company so you have a real idea of what the number should be. Yeah, I'd like to have a canned response regarding my past salary that sounds better than "BLEEP BLOOP IT IS NOT TO MY ADVANTAGE TO REVEAL THAT". As for desired salary, I doubt it will come up on interview day, but if they truly insist, I can give a non-answer like "something in line with someone of my skills and experience for this area." Also tk, dude, I'm all about breakfast.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 05:05
|
|
|
In my education section, of my resume, I have a section where I have some post-bac computer science courses that I hope to turn into a master's before long, and another section where I have a BS degree in an unrelated field. For the post-bac courses I have a decent enough GPA to put on a resume, but for the BS I have an GPA that I really shouldn't put on a resume. Should I include one GPA, but not the other?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 07:36
|
|
|
dingy dimples posted:I've got an interview in the Bay area on Monday. Any last-minute advice? I fully intend to keep my big mouth shut about free food and salary. For one form I had to do this online, and these fields were marked as mandatory. So what I did was inflate my older salaries by 10-20% or so, within reason. I used Glassdoor to look up salaries for similar positions at other companies. [edit: These were retail, helpdesk, or intern roles where people already know you don't make that much, but I thought it was helpful anyway.] It's not a problem at all. Future employers can't actually check these numbers -- companies usually have a policy that they only verify your dates of employment and not your salary if anyone calls. Ethically, well, they're trying to bring you on for the lowest cost so don't feel bad for them. It is the Bay Area though, and they'll have a real interest not to make a low bid lest you find out in a year and try to hop to any of the other hundreds of tech companies out there. Devvo fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Mar 14, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 08:15
|
|
|
Devvo posted:For one form I had to do this online, and these fields were marked as mandatory. So?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 10:02
|
|
|
shrughes posted:So? It might have been coded to only accept numbers. That's what I would do, if for some reason I wanted to force people to give me their salary. Amarkov fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Mar 14, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 15:00
|
|
|
Just had a 2nd interview with a dev and CTO. It wasn't a technical interview (unfortunately) but more about my working process, etc. It went alright. Some of my answers probably weren't that clear but at times it felt like they were trying to sell the company to me more than I was trying to sell myself to them. Anyway, the last question was regarding salary. I said something like "definitely open to negotiation once we discover that we're a good fit for each other" or something. The dev knew the kind of poo poo I was trying to pull and just smirked, but the CTO said to reach him over e-mail about salary. How should I proceed? For reference, I already have a decent job with fewer hours, and I have a minimum figure in mind. On one hand, this company has a lot of big clients and has said they're expanding. On the other hand, all they gave me were 2 mostly non-technical interviews and a not-too-hard code test, and it's for a junior position, so I don't know how much they are expecting me to ask for.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 20:00
|
|
|
Hey thread, after an interview and some thorough email negotiation, I got the internship in New York like I posted about a while back. Pay and benefits aren't great but should be more than enough to support myself and if everything goes well I get a full development position after three months. Thanks for all the advice throghout the thread, it really helped! I wasn't really quizzed on complex algorithm poo poo, mostly just what tools I have used and what I used them for. Super stoked for this opportunity, now I just have all this "moving to the US" poo poo to figure out 
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 20:23
|
|
|
Pie Colony posted:How should I proceed? For reference, I already have a decent job with fewer hours, and I have a minimum figure in mind. On one hand, this company has a lot of big clients and has said they're expanding. On the other hand, all they gave me were 2 mostly non-technical interviews and a not-too-hard code test, and it's for a junior position, so I don't know how much they are expecting me to ask for. It doesn't matter what they're expecting YOU to offer; force them to be the ones to make the first offer. It gives you an idea of what kind of value they put on the position. If it's insultingly low, that gives you information about how you will be regarded and treated if you were to accept the job (poorly and with no opportunity for a raise, most likely).
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 20:29
|
|
|
Che Delilas posted:It doesn't matter what they're expecting YOU to offer; force them to be the ones to make the first offer. It gives you an idea of what kind of value they put on the position. If it's insultingly low, that gives you information about how you will be regarded and treated if you were to accept the job (poorly and with no opportunity for a raise, most likely). Right, well, how do I get them to do that?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 20:55
|
|
|
Hey goons, haven't posted here in a while... Just scoping out other jobs for the first time in months, came across for a post for an entry-level position.quote:Requirements How common is that? 
Sab669 fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Mar 14, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 20:56
|
|
|
Che Delilas posted:It doesn't matter what they're expecting YOU to offer; force them to be the ones to make the first offer. It gives you an idea of what kind of value they put on the position. If it's insultingly low, that gives you information about how you will be regarded and treated if you were to accept the job (poorly and with no opportunity for a raise, most likely). Agreed. And whatever they offer, make a counter. They expect this. Don't make it an ultimatum. They offer X, you say "I was thinking more like Y". Worse case, they say "no", you tell them you'll think about it, and you take their offer the next day. Best case, you get a bit more. That advice is especially important for the women out there. For some reason, in my hiring experience, the guys almost always asked for more, but many times the women took the first offer. quote:Right, well, how do I get them to do that? Be honest. "I'd really feel more comfortable hearing an offer from you first." The hiring company making the first offer is pretty standard, even if a lot of them try not to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 20:56
|
|
|
Pie Colony posted:at times it felt like they were trying to sell the company to me more than I was trying to sell myself to them. This is pretty normal. There aren't enough good developers to go around; if we think you're good enough to offer a job, someone else probably will too. We want you to accept our job offer, not theirs, and during the interviews is our best chance to convince you to do so.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 20:59
|
|
|
Sab669 posted:Hey goons, haven't posted here in a while... Just scoping out other jobs for the first time in months, came across for a post for an entry-level position. Instead of saying, "3+ years of Perl experience", they've put, "It's fine if you don't know Perl, but you'd need it here so make an effort, guy." Consider it a blessing?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 21:49
|
|
|
Sarcophallus posted:Instead of saying, "3+ years of Perl experience", they've put, "It's fine if you don't know Perl, but you'd need it here so make an effort, guy." Perhaps I was reading it more as, "Well we're not going to pay to teach you, you better have a good grasp by the time you start".
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 22:48
|
|
|
Sab669 posted:Perhaps I was reading it more as, "Well we're not going to pay to teach you, you better have a good grasp by the time you start".
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 22:56
|
|
|
Pie Colony posted:Right, well, how do I get them to do that? I'm going to paraphrase (or directly plagiarize) a phrase someone else in this thread posted a month or two ago. If they're being stubborn about it, say something like, "It's important to me to get a feel for what kind of value you place on this position." It has the benefit of being entirely truthful, because again if they offer something stupidly low you know automatically that they want to take advantage of you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2013 23:21
|
|
|
Amarkov posted:It might have been coded to only accept numbers. That's what I would do, if for some reason I wanted to force people to give me their salary. Try $1.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2013 06:45
|
|
|
Pie Colony posted:Just had a 2nd interview with a dev and CTO. It wasn't a technical interview (unfortunately) but more about my working process, etc. It went alright. Some of my answers probably weren't that clear but at times it felt like they were trying to sell the company to me more than I was trying to sell myself to them. Anyway, the last question was regarding salary. I said something like "definitely open to negotiation once we discover that we're a good fit for each other" or something. The dev knew the kind of poo poo I was trying to pull and just smirked, but the CTO said to reach him over e-mail about salary. You've got two options really, either just wait in let them offer (they'll have to eventually), or else just pick a huge number, i.e. the very highest you think you could get, and let them tell you that it's out of their range. It just might not be. In practice, you usually have one of two situations: 1) complete penny-pincher manager who just loves to hardball negotiations or 2) manager who doesn't give a gently caress, but has a range that he/she is authorized to offer for that position. So if you get a 2) case, and you hit the range, you'll probably just get the job. And if you're above the range, the counteroffer will be at the high end of the range and you can settle near the top. And even if you have a 1) case, you might as well make them work for it. What NEVER happens is they have two applicants and decide that the better one asked for too much money and that they won't pursue it. Your value to an organization is probably in the hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars a year. Your cost to an organization is your salary, plus tens of thousands in benefits, tens of thousands in overhead (HR, payroll, building costs, etc). So the tens of thousands that you are negotiating for is actually a small figure to them, especially when a good hire might bring twice or even ten times the value a bad hire does (if the bad hire isn't actually negative).
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2013 06:47
|
|
|
quote:2) manager who doesn't give a gently caress, but has a range that he/she is authorized to offer for that position. Completely true. When I used to hire, it was a use it or loose it for salary. It was a public company. One of the big statistics that investors look at is the number of employees vs. your revenue. So the beancounters cared about headcount, not so much about individual salaries.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2013 14:10
|
|
|
I recently got a job offer from a location in Manhattan to serve as a front end developer. Currently I make 65k in a fairly low cost area (about half the COL of Manhattan). I was wondering what I should expect for salary in NYC. I was thinking in between 85k to 100k, but just received an offer for 65k. Are my expectations too high, is there room for negotiation here or with such a low offer is it better to just say no and move on? I have nearly 3 years experience in web dev as well as a CS degree.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
Theler posted:I recently got a job offer from a location in Manhattan to serve as a front end developer. Currently I make 65k in a fairly low cost area (about half the COL of Manhattan). I was wondering what I should expect for salary in NYC. I was thinking in between 85k to 100k, but just received an offer for 65k. Are my expectations too high, is there room for negotiation here or with such a low offer is it better to just say no and move on? I have nearly 3 years experience in web dev as well as a CS degree. There is always room for negotiation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 00:27
|
|
|
Isn't $65k kind of insultingly low for NYC for someone with a degree and years of experience? I mean, the average starting salary for CS majors fresh out of school is always said to be right around $60k. I'd expect more than that with experience, and then more than that for an area with a higher cost of living. Would my expectations be wrong?
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 00:36
|
|
|
Safe and Secure! posted:Isn't $65k kind of insultingly low for NYC for someone with a degree and years of experience? I mean, the average starting salary for CS majors fresh out of school is always said to be right around $60k. I'd expect more than that with experience, and then more than that for an area with a higher cost of living. Yeah it's insultingly low. Think 85k-100k.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 00:39
|
|
|
^^ This too. 65k for 3 years + CS degree is not outside the norm for a lot of places, but ultimately NYC is not one of them. Since the salary is the same what other upsides does this place give you? Is it work in Manhattan for personal/other reasons, or is your current job an end-to-end nightmare and you just want to GTFO, or do you think they'll offer a better ramp for your raises/promotions, or is it something strategic like they're in the financial sector and you want your shot at becoming an HFT fat cat programmer? If it applies at all, I would heavily discount any sort of regular tech/startup buzz. "They're going to the old Foo market and modernizing it with Butts, nobody else is doing that, it's a total gold mine " or "Their app uses xWidgets, and xWidgets are going to dominate the next 5 year+ cycle in software" can be easy things to get excited about, especially if your current employer is really boring (read: stable). Doubling your COL (unless you're already close enough to commute) with no salary adjustment is going to need a lot of weight on the other end of the scale for that to make sense. And that's just to even it out, nevermind making it a net plus for you. Either way I'd respond saying that amount is far too low and go over some of the reasoning why to back it up. Thing is even if you are generous and only counter at the low end of what you want, it's so far away from what they've just offered that it's more likely that you'll only get them to split the difference (so, still below your lower bound) or just say they can't do it. I've got the feeling it's going to come down to either walking away or settling for less than you were expecting (while the increase in COL will probably not be less than you were expecting). Like with the other guy in the thread who just got an internship in NYC, see if they're willing to help out mitigate the COL (doubtful but hey). Bhaal fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Mar 16, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 00:58
|
|
|
Thanks for the advice everyone. I do want to move to NYC, but am comfortable and not at all desperate. While the job seemed decent it was not a must have so I will probably try to negotiate to my upper range, and if that fails I have no problem just dropping this offer. At least I know that my salary range was sane.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 01:23
|
|
|
When offered a job, what is the best way to stall a few days while other expected offers come in? When do you start negotiating salary? I'm quickly approaching the position where I either have to get someone to wait a little, or I'd be leaving a job a few weeks in to work somewhere else if the deal was better. I'd rather not do the latter, but if it's significantly more, why not? Also, if someone is in school and working part time, how should one go about negotiating hourly vs salaried work? Over the summer I would go full time, of course - would they change the salary or what? I feel like I'm almost too ahead of myself right now, since everyone I've interviewed with was shocked that I have 3 more semesters, especially the guy who was also shocked that I "brought code with me." Also, thanks thread! I'm actually employable and useful!
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 17:51
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:When offered a job, what is the best way to stall a few days while other expected offers come in? When do you start negotiating salary? I'm quickly approaching the position where I either have to get someone to wait a little, or I'd be leaving a job a few weeks in to work somewhere else if the deal was better. I'd rather not do the latter, but if it's significantly more, why not? Be honest. "I'm awaiting another offer and would like to compare the two before making a decision. Please give me 2 days." And tell the other company, "I've got another offer and would appreciate an answer within two days." If you do get multiple offers you want, pick the one you want to work at, and negotiate the hell out of it. If you don't come to an agreement, drop it and go for the other. Don't be tacky and play them against each other.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 18:24
|
|
|
Gounads posted:Be honest. "I'm awaiting another offer and would like to compare the two before making a decision. Please give me 2 days." And tell the other company, "I've got another offer and would appreciate an answer within two days." The thing is, even though people want me - I'm still part-time, I'm still a Junior, and even if I actually can say "YO my poo poo be in production" I still have that status as a non-grad, non-full-timer. Should I really just not consider that?
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 18:32
|
|
|
I just want to say, as someone who is now doing the hiring. PLEASE PLEASE during phone interviews... DO NOT MUMBLE. You may be freaking Albert Einstein but mumbling sounds like you are dumber than you really are, mainly because it prevents you from communicating with your peers which makes me hesitant to pass you through to the next round. The spectrum of CS people's social abilities is wide so I don't say this is everybody (and to be honest I mumble sometimes), but if you feel like you're doing well but don't get callbacks, consider whether you need to practice your voice skills. 2banks1swap.avi posted:When offered a job, what is the best way to stall a few days while other expected offers come in? When do you start negotiating salary? I'm quickly approaching the position where I either have to get someone to wait a little, or I'd be leaving a job a few weeks in to work somewhere else if the deal was better. I'd rather not do the latter, but if it's significantly more, why not? If it's actually 3-4 days then you should just tell them that you are waiting on another offer. Some people will threaten to withdraw their offers if you don't answer immediately but that is a little bit of bullshit IMO. Ever watch Shark Tank? You know how the Sharks say, "accept this deal in 30 seconds or it's gone" it's a scare tactic to force the inventor into agreeing into bad terms. In Job terms it's called an exploding offer. Sometimes they may really have more than one qualified applicant and are forcing your hand because they can choose, so I guess if it's your dream job just either accept or take a gamble and say you really need more time (IMO the gamble is about ~15% they will actually withdraw the offer, 10% of that is because they feel insulted, 5% is because they are serious about offer withdrawals). Generally if you're good enough to get hired by them, given the current market (at least in Bay Area), it isn't often that a company is literally drowning in engineers/developers. Maybe if you're Google or Facebook, but even then those companies have pretty voracious appetites for Engineers. Here is my own anecdotal story: I graduated college, took about 3 months off before I began scouring CraigsList and Monster.com/Dice?/Hotjobs for jobs (this was ~2005ish). After a month without success I got a referral for a phone screen at Yahoo and also at another company. The "other company" (OC) went through the process pretty quickly and I even drove to their offices twice for interviews and they made me an offer after ~2 weeks. Yahoo dragged its feet and stopped contacting me until literally the day after my last on-site interview with OC where I was pretty sure I had the job at OC in hand. They wanted to fly me up for an interview. Yahoo, being an actual legit company that people wanted to work for back in 2005, seemed like a pretty big opportunity for me. But I figured that it was easier to take the sure thing and relax for a week before starting at this new job. It's funny how much guilt and pressure parents can exert over someone who is suppose to be an "adult" Essentially my mom guilt-tripped me into dragging my feet (because YAHOO!) with the OC. The interview was in about ~2 weeks but by the end of the first week my would be boss at OC called me up and asked me what was going on. I told them I had just gotten an interview with Yahoo and wanted to see it out. He said that he understood but that if I couldn't make a decision now they'd have to move on with other applicants. I said I understood and thanked him and hung up. The Yahoo interview, I'll never know what actually happened but essentially I didn't get the job (I think the overall feedback was that I was too inexperienced... wat?) so now I had to start all over. I was fuming since I felt like I had done really well. Anyways, tail tucked between my legs, I emailed the HR at OC and asked them if they still had the job opening I had already gotten but rejected. She called me up, I told her that Yahoo told me no and that I'd still like to work for them if they wanted. Anyways the whole point of the story is of course they took me. They had already gone through all the trouble of interviewing me, and they could either start all over with the process (and maybe not find anyone) or they could just fill out their job hole with me. So if a company can force an exploding offer on you and you don't consider it a "dream job" they will wait. Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Mar 16, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 18:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 08:03 |
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:The thing is, even though people want me - I'm still part-time, I'm still a Junior, and even if I actually can say "YO my poo poo be in production" I still have that status as a non-grad, non-full-timer. Should I really just not consider that? It shouldn't matter unless you don't disclose what you're looking for. Don't go into an interview for a full-time position to try and get it to part-time. That is just annoying for the company to deal with.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2013 18:45
|
|