|
The more I think about it with all the theories tossed around, I wonder how important Togami actually is to the murder. Hear me out. The only things we can say FOR CERTAIN (based on what we've seen, unless contradicted in the trial), is that both Nagito and Hanamura have been in the lodge nearly all day. This means they have no foreknowledge of what Togami will bring to the party, so we can't reasonably say they predicted the night vision goggles. What we DO know is there was a knife taped under the table, with a glowing spot on it - that can reasonably point to Nagito, if Hanamura really has been in the kitchen cooking the whole time. The blackout was set up by pushing the fusebox to breaking point, and then pushed passed it with the air conditioner remote. We pin that to Nagito again, and we begin to see a basic plan - cut the lights, get the knife and stab someone. Something that's been mentioned as a "no" to various theories is the time of the blackout. The thing is, that was the result of Monobear manually resetting the breaker - the crime was over and everyone was just flailing about in the dark pointlessly. The blackout would have lasted however long the criminal (ie, Nagito) needed it to. Though admittedly stabbing blindly does seem like a bad idea, it's not an impossible one. So where's Hanamura in all this? Simple. He saw Nagito set up his plan and then Hanamura made one of his own. Once the breaker tripped, he could just get in place under the floorboards where the glowing spot was and stab up at Nagito for an easy kill that couldn't be traced back to him... Except that Togami spotted Nagito diving under the table with night vision goggles and gave chase. Nagito abandons the knife, but Togami stops to examine it roughly where Nagito would have been if he was grabbing for it, and then Hanamura starts stabbing.
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 02:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 05:29 |
|
|
Sherringford posted:Sorry if this was suggested before(still skimming the thread to catch up) and this is probably just me being influenced by a book I just read, but what if Togami was planning to fake his death to "train" people in solving murder mysteries for the future and then got murdered for real? It would explain how the killer knew where Togami would be(in addition to the tape thing I mean), since a fake death would require an accomplice who could pretend to check on the body and make sure he's dead. Sherringford posted:The biggest issue I have with it is really that there's no strong evidence pointing toward it. I mean, I can easily come up with a scenario that doesn't contradict anything and explains everything...except for why that scenario is more likely than any other insane and not foreshadowed scenario. Which is sort of important. I don't think I can make a serious case for the theory, unfortunately. I brought this up a couple times, but I never really elaborated on it for the very reasons you mentioned afterwards - there's really no evidence that directly points to this being any more likely than any other crazy speculation. For what it's worth I'll include my thought process, as well as the obvious flaws in the theory. First, imagine that for whatever reason Togami wants to fake his own death. Perhaps he wants to see if the kids have the mettle to solve a real murder, or perhaps he wants to show them how terrifying finding a dead body is to dissuade them from actually committing a murder. The letter in Togami's room can factor in this a couple of ways. It might have been a fake by Togami to be evidence in the fake murder investigation, or alternatively, it may have been real, and he decided that if he faked his own murder the kids would be too distracted for anyone to commit a REAL murder. Either way, the fact that Nagito seemingly made a beeline for Togami's room and the letter is something we should keep in mind. Next, Togami had to find someone to be his accomplice, or alternatively have someone in mind he wanted to frame for his own fake murder. I'm going to ignore the latter and jut go ahead and assume that his accomplice was Nagito, mostly because I'm not trying to present an exhaustive theory but just to outline my thought process. If Nagito was the accomplice, we can then assume that him losing the random drawing to clean the lodge was intentional, and him just happening to have brought lots with him to draw was something he pre-planned with Togami. Togami and Nagito would then meet in the lodge and set up an interesting scenario under which a murder could take place. The planted knife and the blackout was their plan for this. This explains why the knife seems like such a badly planned murder weapon - it was never meant to actually murder someone, only to be a prop in a play, so to speak. Finally, Hanamura somehow gets wind of this plan, perhaps he overheard them discussing the details out loud in the lodge, and plans the skewer murder knowing exactly when and where Togami and Nagito are going to be at 11:30. This explains away the riskiness of the floorboard/skewer plan, since Hanamura has exact and reliable information that he can act on. This theory has the benefit of explaining Nagito's reactions after the murder. His stated goal is to prove there is no murderer at all, and that none of the kids is guilty of anything. If he had actually planted the knife with the intent to murder, he was prepared to murder the rest of the kids by proxy as well. Thus, when his plan didn't pan out he should be totally on board finding the real killer. Why then was he intent on proving there was no murderer at all? If instead he was guilty of staging a fake murder that went horribly wrong, then his supposed 'nice guy-ness' would lead him to want no one to be punished for this. He is nervous because he knows that there is evidence pointing to him as the knife-murderer, even though that wasn't what actually killed Togami. It also explains why he found the murder note - he knew about it beforehand in his plotting with Togami. Here's some of the major flaws in the theory, not including the obvious "this is way too complicated and while the evidence allows it it does not explicitly support it": -How, exactly, was Togami planning to fake his death when there's a trained nurse in the room? I am going to assume, scaredy cat that she is, she can at least manage to tell with total certainty if someone is dead or not. Going through all this set up only for someone to immediately call the bluff seems really, really dumb. -If Togami was planning on being 'killed' during the blackout, why go through the motions of bringing and putting on the NVG? Why not just wait by the table with Nagito? Being on the other side of the room and rushing over gives too much opportunity to trip up, or for someone stumbling about in the darkness to get in your way. -If Togami really was really planning on implicating Nagito as the fake murderer, you would think there would be more decisive evidence pointing directly at Nagito, to make the game winnable by the kids, so to speak. Granted, this might be why Nagito was so flustered after finding out Togami was really dead, and his tagging along and being evasive with Hinata were him trying to lead him away from this evidence. But then, if the game were really trying to do this, why not give us that evidence and let the fake murder reveal itself during the trial? I mean I could keep layering on details to counter arguments against the theory, but really its already so complicated and makes so many assumptions that there's no point. If anything, the game might pull something like it did with Junko in case 5 and 6 where unresolved bits of a former case end up tying into stuff that happens way later. But as it stands, I can't really find myself supporting this theory. If someone wants to springboard off of my reasoning so far then by all means, but until the game gives me a concrete reason to support this I'm not going to elaborate.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 02:24
|
|
|
drat you Oren and your cliffhangers. I was afraid at first that Souda speaking up against Peko meant it would be Leon all over again, with one of my favorite characters being the first culprit. But it looks like the evidence is pointing elsewhere. I hope, anyway. (My #1 favorite is Gundam though, of course, and man I just love his baritone voice.) My brain is addled from starting a new job recently, but if Togami was stabbed by a skewer through the floorboards, would there really be that much blood splatter on the floor itself? Especially if Togami was laying completely flat on his stomach when he was stabbed, then his body would be blocking the blood from spraying outwards. It would all just leak down between the cracks. I don't know/remember how much of a role blood splatter/trajectory plays in Dangan Ronpa but I've watched too much CSI to overlook it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 02:32
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:The more I think about it with all the theories tossed around, I wonder how important Togami actually is to the murder. Hear me out. I concur! It's possible that even Hanamura's motive was actually defense of someone else - he saw the knife and knew there would be a murder attempt. He could no longer pretend it would all be fine, so he tried to kill a would-be murderer.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 02:35
|
|
|
Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I concur! It's possible that even Hanamura's motive was actually defense of someone else - he saw the knife and knew there would be a murder attempt. He could no longer pretend it would all be fine, so he tried to kill a would-be murderer. No, that motive doesn't work unless Hanamura has bad ears or a terrible memory - if he kills someone, either he lives and everyone else dies, or he dies. Given that he hasn't confessed or accused Nagito of foul deeds, we can safely assume that he hasn't gone with the "selfless sacrifice" route. As regards the interrupted murder theory, I'm not terribly happy with two aspects. My objections about the consistency in the "stab-in-the-dark" plan remains, of course. The other issue, though, is assuming that Hanamura worked out Nagito's foul murder plot and promptly decided on a counterplan. Keep in mind, assuming Nagito DID set up a murder plan, this is what he would have done to any outside viewers: - Mucked around with the air conditioning - Plugged in three irons - Leaned under a table and taped something there In order for Hanamura to correctly divine Nagito's plan and prepare a counterplan, he would have needed to see Nagito do all these things without Nagito noticing, and then correctly figure out that the irons and the air conditioning was intended to cause a blackout and that Nagito's fiddling around under the table was suspicious enough to look closer and realize that he'd been taping up a knife that glowed in the dark. It's not a simple matter of just seeing Nagito act suspiciously and then going "Ah-ha, here's how to foil him with an elaborate murder of my own!" Missing any one aspect of those three listed features would have led to an incomplete picture of Nagito's plan. Are we therefore assuming that Hanamura is also a SHSL Ninja capable of following Nagito around while he made his preparations without him noticing? It's also worth noting that Nagito directly points out the significance of the three irons during investigations - in fact, if he hadn't spoken up, nobody would ever have known that they were plugged in and powered on to begin with. If he was the one who'd set that whole thing up, what's his angle here? Keep in mind, there's no certainty that HE knows who the heck killed Togami himself, even if he was planning a murder. For that matter, at that stage in the investigation, he doesn't even necessarily have any clue HOW it happened. In terms of trying to work out the culprit in order to keep himself and everyone else from getting executed, what motive does Nagito have for revealing something which, to the best of his knowledge, would only help implicate him and which is unlikely to help figure out who killed Togami and how? Edit: Come to think of it, there's another significant strike against the "Nagito planned a murder" theory. IF he had been planning a murder, then immediately after getting out from under the table he would have realized that his plan to kill someone had just gone horribly wrong and that Togami was very likely to rise up out of the table and finger him as a suspect at any moment. Once he realizes that Togami WASN'T coming out from under there, he would have started to realize that perhaps he'd just managed to avoid death by the slimmest of margins himself. He had come very, very close to seeing everything go wrong for him in just about the worst way possible. This is his first pose and line after the lights went back on. quote:
Now, I know Nagito is a pretty chill dude, but are we seriously presuming the man was born with sedatives for blood? Tomn fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 04:01
|
|
Is something wrong, Sonia-san?
|
If nothing else I love that this trial isn't as cut and dry as DR1's first trial. Even as far in as we are I'm still not 100% sold that it was Hanamura, though it's definitely looking more and more likely. At least it's not "Leon did it" and we were pretty sure of that before we even finished the investigation portion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 04:22
|
|
|
slowbeef posted:I think you have the right idea. Fire doors work one way - they keep you from entering the building, and they'd seal in a blackout. They don't keep you from exiting. Unless fire doors work differently in Japan than in the US for some insane reason, you can totally open them. The electromagnets holding them open shut turn off when the fire alarm is triggered (or presumably if there's no power), but they have handles and pushbars to operate them — otherwise someone'd be trapped in a fire. They're not like bulkheads in ships like in the movie Titanic, there's nothing stopping someone from moving past them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 04:48
|
|
|
You know, before reading these in depth speculation posts, I really wouldn't even have considered Hanamura, but I'm quickly becoming convinced. I was honestly suspicious of Souda simply on the basis of "who else would have come up with creating a blackout in that fashion", but that's all I have. But anyway with something more constructive, now that I have an account, I hope I'm allowed to share SDR2 fanart that I've created! Here's a picture of Peko I doodled quickly last month: 
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 04:58
|
|
|
Ultimately, it comes down to where the entrance underground is. We still haven't 100% ruled out that it was in the main hall, and if it is, the position map would be a lot more important.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 05:04
|
|
|
FPzero posted:If nothing else I love that this trial isn't as cut and dry as DR1's first trial. Even as far in as we are I'm still not 100% sold that it was Hanamura, though it's definitely looking more and more likely. At least it's not "Leon did it" and we were pretty sure of that before we even finished the investigation portion. As Maya would say, "we don't have enough information." It's interesting to speculate on suspicions about Hanamura or Nagito, but we can't be sure about what happened until we know more about things like how Gundam got his earring back. It is nice that the developers didn't spell out who the killer is like in DR1, though this seems to be more for making the cases more complex and harder to work out immediately while playing (see how the tutorial cases progressed through the Ace Attorney series, which DR seems to be heavily inspired by).
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 05:23
|
|
|
Jeabus Mahogany posted:Ultimately, it comes down to where the entrance underground is. We still haven't 100% ruled out that it was in the main hall, and if it is, the position map would be a lot more important. Agreed - Gundam's testimony is what is ultimately going to solve the case. Hell, we haven't quite ruled out the existence of multiple entrances, either. Also, speculation aside, it's pretty sad that Hanamura is getting knocked off so early. In the whole time he's been here, he's only had time to make one meal, which only three people ate, one of whom died while another promptly suffered a bad case of Montezuma's Revenge. Almost nobody got to taste and appreciate his SHSL cooking, and now the gang will have lost not only their leader, but also their best food. Truly, a despair-filled outcome.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 05:24
|
|
|
dragonsroar posted:But anyway with something more constructive, now that I have an account, I hope I'm allowed to share SDR2 fanart that I've created! Here's a picture of Peko I doodled quickly last month: The Hard Rule is that you have to run it by Oren. That said, this looks very nice, and doesn't seem too spoilery... So Good job. I like how, compared to last game, this trial is not insultingly easy. It's like they expect you to have some experience with this kind of game, and are actually treating this less as a tutorial and more like chapter 2 or 3 stuff. That said, I don't think any of these trials have had you actually solve the cases. It feels like you actually are, as a group solving the cases. Instead of going into the trial knowing the answer and spending 15 minutes convincing everyone you're right, you go into the trial and find the answer with everyone's help.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 05:29
|
|
|
The hard rule is that you have to run fanart you didn't create by orenronen. Any personally created fanart is fair game, since, unless you're a dickbag who knows what's going to happen and slipped some endgame spoilers into your work, it's fairly safe to assume your own fanart doesn't spoil, say, the fourth killer that you know nothing about. EDIT: In fact, it'd probably be easier to just quote the OP: quote:If you want to draw fan art or produce other types of fan creations, go right away and post the results on the thread! Original fan art is always one of the best parts of an LP.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 05:36
|
|
|
Zenostein posted:Unless fire doors work differently in Japan than in the US for some insane reason, you can totally open them. The electromagnets holding them open shut turn off when the fire alarm is triggered (or presumably if there's no power), but they have handles and pushbars to operate them — otherwise someone'd be trapped in a fire. They're not like bulkheads in ships like in the movie Titanic, there's nothing stopping someone from moving past them. It really depends on if they're the swing-shut variety of the slide-shut variety. Sliding firing doors can be opened from both sides, swinging fire doors can only be opened from one side (they allow you to move toward the exit, but never away from it). For instance, the place where I work has swing-shut fire doors; in case of a fire or fire drill, they swing shut and you can only push them open from one side. Swing-shut fire doors are generally considered safer because if you have low visibility (possibly due to smoke, or in this case a power outage) then they can help guide you toward an exit (because if the fire door doesn't open, then it's the wrong way to go). Based on the drawing, and the fact that the hallway is positioned along the outside of the lodge, these are fire doors that swing shut and only open in one direction: toward the exit. This is important because it means that no one could have gone toward the kitchen or storage room during the blackout. If the entrance to the underground area is in the storage room, then Hanamura was the only one with access to it. If the entrance to the underground area was somewhere else, like the office or the bathroom, then Hanamura is probably innocent (because he was in the kitchen before and after the blackout). QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 06:26 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 06:21
|
|
|
dragonsroar posted:You know, before reading these in depth speculation posts, I really wouldn't even have considered Hanamura, but I'm quickly becoming convinced. I was honestly suspicious of Souda simply on the basis of "who else would have come up with creating a blackout in that fashion", but that's all I have. It's a little hard to tell it's Peko (I thought it was Fukawa at first), but you have a really interesting style! Good job!
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 06:29
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:
  The wooden door on the left is the kitchen; the silver thing on the door in the first image is a doorknob. The second image is leaving the kitchen and facing the main hall. It shows the big pillars which would stop the door from swinging away from the kitchen. It's a bad design, inconsistent with how fire doors should actually work, but if they do close automatically during a power outage Hanamura's gonna get his claim of "feeling his way along the wall to the main hall" busted to hell. Even leaning into the wall, he'd have been pushing against the action of the doors.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 06:50
|
|
|
TheGreatGildersneeze posted:Based on the actual images from the update where they were given as a clue, they swing exactly the opposite direction you're thinking they swing. There's two big wooden pillars which would block them from swinging inward toward the main hall unless the clearly depicted knob-style handles are inexplicably attached at the hinging point of the doors. Remember Monomi said it was an unsafe building. With that in mind, fire doors that work the wrong way are par for the course.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 06:53
|
|
|
I'm still having issues with figuring this out because, to me, the blackout lasted exactly as long as it took me to read the dialog during it. I keep wondering who could murder someone in under 30 seconds, and I have to keep reminding myself that it was probably much longer than that. I may be the minority, but I'm still very suspicious of Souda. I can't explain how he had the opportunity to set up the breaker failing, but he would be the person who would know how to do it. He announced that he was leaving during the blackout, and then reappears with "Oh, look at that! The lights’re back on in here, too!" and "Uh... well, actually... I didn’t make it to the office -- that’s where the breakers are, see -- before the power came back on..." all while sweating bullets. He really wants you to know that THE BREAKERS ARE IN THE OFFICE HM YEAH THAT'S THE ONLY PLACE ONE COULD CONTROL THE POWER FROM, YUP. He is very quick to blame Peko with little to no proof despite knowing that if he's wrong he's going to die. His "help" mostly derails the investigation and the trial. And, in a bit of meta analysis, he's got the kind of personality that lends itself to leaving the narrative early. Also I really really love that you can back people up this time around. It's nice to not spend every round waiting for someone to say something dumb and completely wrong.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 07:38
|
|
|
I'm wondering is it still considered a murder if someone is killed in self defense? Like immediate, not Leon Kuwata logic. I'd like to see a case where Monobear still demands a trial and self defense has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt or else the poor shmo still gets executed. Also outside of DR0 is there any other supplementary readings for these games? Dejablue fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 08:42
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:3) Togami committed suicide. I have absolutely no evidence or reason to think this might be the case, but it still seems like something that might've happened for some crazy Hideo Kojima-plot sort of reason. The most immediately obvious reason for this would be that someone else stabbed Togami first and he decided to deal the finishing blow himself to prevent any other people dying in the resulting trial. Not for some altruistic reason like protecting his murderer of all people, but just in case they got away with it and everyone else had to die for it. The problem with this line of thinking, however, is that they'd still have to prove it was Togami himself and he just made it all that much more difficult to get the correct trial result when there's already a murderer that actual evidence will point towards. Another possible choice would be that Togami killed himself with no external prompting. The most obvious reason for this would be that Byakuya "Corpse Mover" Togami was reverting to his old ways and without a crime scene available to tamper with, he had to provide his own. Also, if he chose himself as his target, he'd be dead during the trial so there was zero risk of him being executed during the trial of his murder for killing himself. The perfect crime. This would mean Togami set up the blackout and the glow in the dark knife as red herrings to mess with everyone, which is certainly something he might do, the loveable old crazypants. However, this doesn't really make sense, because of Mikan's post mortem report. The report in question suggests a murder weapon other than the knife next to Togami's corpse. This means that if Togami killed himself, he hid the murder weapon afterwards. That or it was an icicle and he left it inside one of his wounds and by the time they got a closer look, it had melted. Or maybe it was assisted suicide and his accomplice hid the murder weapon. Or maybe the murder weapon was attached to a piece of elastic and it sprung away as soon as Togami let go of it. Now that I think about it, there's a whole bunch of ways Togami could have killed himself. I should never have doubted you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 08:53
|
|
|
Tunahead posted:Now that I think about it, there's a whole bunch of ways Togami could have killed himself. Have we yet considered the possibility that Togami just plain accidentally scarfed down one of the skewers while chomping on his churrasco, and that it simply took a while to make its way through his system and start poking around?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 09:07
|
|
|
Dejablue posted:I'm wondering is it still considered a murder if someone is killed in self defense? In this game? Probably. I'm kind of half expecting some sort of scenario like that to pop up at some point in SDR2.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 09:12
|
|
|
kirbysuperstar posted:In this game? Probably. I'm kind of half expecting some sort of scenario like that to pop up at some point in SDR2. Well the first case was kinda self defense, until leon broke down the door, but a real self defense case could be possible. I'd bet Monobear to still kill the murderer though, even in self defense.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 09:25
|
|
|
symptom posted:Well the first case was kinda self defense, until leon broke down the door, but a real self defense case could be possible. I'd bet Monobear to still kill the murderer though, even in self defense. Of course he would. Wouldn't it be despairing for someone innocent to die because they were trying to live, and the students all willingly condemned that person to execution for the sole purpose of saving themselves?
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 14:47
|
|
|
HangedManArcana posted:Of course he would. Wouldn't it be despairing for someone innocent to die because they were trying to live, and the students all willingly condemned that person to execution for the sole purpose of saving themselves? Wow that's a really sick possibility....and I totally want to see it happen! Though at the same time I guess there is a possibility the "culprit" could live if self defense were somehow proven. This is supposed to be "mutual killing" Edit: Actually when I think about it further that would be extremely hard to prove and even in the first game you had Oowada who technically did not want to kill Chihiro. BUT if he had better control of his emotions it wouldn't have happened. The only character who can truly discern self defense from murder would be Monobear who is the only one who could witness it anyway. Dejablue fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 17:26
|
|
|
In a similar vein, I was considering how Monobear (and the students) would respond to an attempted murder with an obvious culprit, but no deaths. Specifically, if the students as a group were to lock the attempted murderer in his/her room (or banish them to another part of the island, away from supplies), and proceed forget about them. Who then would Monobear consider the 'murderer' if the imprisoned student was to later starve to death? My initial thought was the person who first suggested the idea, or cast the deciding vote, but I also considered that maybe he would blame the student who physically turned the key to lock the would-be murderer in, or possibly the student who was keeping or threw away the key. I initially thought that something like this would crop up with Syo in the previous game, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it at least comes up here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 17:39
|
|
|
Assuming that someone was immediately caught red handed killing someone, I wouldn't be surprised if Monobear just executed them on the spot for being dumb enough to get caught in that way. You couldn't properly hold a trial, anyway.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 19:50
|
|
|
Tomn posted:*snip* Hey, possibly! But in all seriousness, keep in mind that according to our protagonist's own recollections some pseudo-lengthy period of time passed between when Togami stopped talking (read: was murdered) and the lights went back on. Even in the dark, I don't think it's implausible that Nagito pulled himself together during that time period. Regarding Nagito's strange motives after the murder, I think I may have puzzled out a reasonable explanation that only takes two minor assumptions instead of deciding that Nagito is a sociopath or running an overly complicated doublecross of Hanamura or selectively interpreting rules for acquaintances in murders or what have you. Recall that after the murder Nagito has already been to the storage room, alone, where (assumption #1) we believe the crawlspace entrance is, before he makes his proclamation to the group that he will prove that no one could have murdered Togami. It's hinted very strongly that Nagito is familiar with the storage room, so what if (assumption #2) there is some trick or complication with the entrance that leaves Nagito to believe that it was impossible for someone to have exited from it during the time of the blackout (or at least, without leaving behind evidence of doing so)? And if he knew of it, he probably checked underneath to ensure no one was still hiding there. And when everything seemed to be in order, and with the way Togami was murdered, Nagito incorrectly concludes that no student could have killed Togami. Obviously there are issues, such as if there actually something that could feasibly convince Nagito that nothing was up upon his inspection of the area, and also why Nagito thought it was better that no one investigate the storage room/find the crawlspace. Does he not trust the students to go down a pointless rabbithole? Does explaining the issue with the crawlspace to the others somehow paint Nagito in a bad light as someone who was clearly trying to find a way to murder someone? This would explain his relief when it was found that there was no way to enter the crawlspace from the outside, the insistence that there was no way to enter from inside, and his covering up of things related to the storage room but then not hiding those of his own likely actions in setting up the blackout and the taping of the knife under the table. Rawkking fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 20:42
|
|
|
Mondlicht posted:Assuming that someone was immediately caught red handed killing someone, I wouldn't be surprised if Monobear just executed them on the spot for being dumb enough to get caught in that way. You couldn't properly hold a trial, anyway. Strictly speaking, I don't think Monobear really cares about the investigating portion of the trial, just the students voting to kill off one of their number. It'd be a very short trial, but it'd be a trial. That said, it's almost certain never to actually happen because the trial investigations are where all the actual gameplay happens. But for all that, I don't think Monobear would particularly give a flip about the murderer being obvious. Edit: Rawkking posted:As for Nagito's motivations after the murder, I think I may have puzzled out a reasonable explanation that only takes two minor assumptions instead of deciding that Nagito is a sociopath or running an overly complicated doublecross of Hanamura or selectively interpreting rules for acquaintances in murders or what have you. While this is an interesting train of thought, I'm not certain it holds up. To begin with, let's assume your theory is entirely correct - Nagito WAS planning to murder, Hanamura (or somebody) pre-empted him but in such a way that Nagito assumed that another student killing Togami was impossible. That STILL doesn't explain why he's actively helping to figure out why the blackout occurs, because even if he assumed that Monobear killed Togami or that Togami committed an elaborate form of suicide, he is still revealing that he had a very significant role in setting things up for murder. Even if his assumption was true and all the students breathe a sigh of relief, after the trial they will be glaring daggers at him and find themselves constantly on alert whenever he's around, assuming they don't outright decide to lock him up or something. How is this a good outcome for him? Further, if he assumed that none of the students killed Togami, how does revealing that he orchestrated the blackout and planted the knife help prove that? If anything, it's even more dangerous for him because it'll lead the students into suspecting that HE killed Togami, risking his execution - the fact that everyone else would also be executed is likely to be cold comfort. As such, I really don't see that this line of thinking adequately explains Nagito's actions. Honestly, I don't think the "Nagito as second murderer" theories stand up. Each of them relies on too many assumptions and leaves too many unanswered questions. Conversely, the "Hanamura worked alone" theory only leaves on major question ("Why did Togami dive under the table?") and relies on a single assumption (That the nature of the crawlspace allowed him to orchestrate Togami's dive and the murder). Is there really any aspect of the case, so far as we can see, that absolutely REQUIRES Nagito to have been attempting murder? Tomn fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 20:44
|
|
|
dragonsroar posted:But anyway with something more constructive, now that I have an account, I hope I'm allowed to share SDR2 fanart that I've created! Here's a picture of Peko I doodled quickly last month: drat, good stuff. It was hard to tell with your Roleplay artwork how good you were but this kind of artwork is pretty impressive. Since you're now one of us (one of us, one of us) by all means start posting in the artist's thread for daily doodles for critique and suggestions since you've got the talent.
|
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 22:37
|
|
|
Helping people realize that a blackout was orchestrated does not imply that Nagito is planning on fessing up to having orchestrated it or admitting to attempted murder. Nagito's original gameplan may have been something as simple as pointing out that it was impossible for him to have murdered Togami since the attack came from below, pointing out the lack of entrances as a reason that no one could have murdered Togami, and blaming any indiscrepancies caused by his actions as a plot by monobear to turn the students against each other. Edit: He also may have felt he had to do so in order to keep students from incorrectly voting for Pekoyama? Since you've already pointed out the main problem of Hanamura being the only person involved with murder, I'm curious what your take is on Nagito's suspicious behavior in a scenario of Hanamura being the sole person out to kill. Read: Downplaying the storage room, bloody cloth, and insisting that there were no entrances to the crawlspace, etc. Rawkking fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 22:41
|
|
|
I think the main reason people suspect Nagito of attempted murder is this snippet:orenronen posted:
Togami didn't see something suspicious, he saw someone. It couldn't have been Hanamura, since he wasn't in the room proper, and Nagito happens to be the most likely option for who Togami saw, what with being in the room and yelping in pain immediately after Togami said something. He was doing something that raised suspicions for Togami. There's nothing that actually says he was attempting murder specifically, though. Also, because people seem to feel that Nagito is kind of sketchy in general. CandyCrazy fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 22:42
|
|
Oy, what are you doing?!
Ow!
|
Rawkking posted:Helping people realize that a blackout was orchestrated does not imply that Nagito is planning on fessing up to having orchestrated it or admitting to attempted murder. Nagito's original gameplan may have been something as simple as pointing out that it was impossible for him to have murdered Togami since the attack came from below, pointing out the lack of entrances as a reason that no one could have murdered Togami, and blaming any indiscrepancies caused by his actions as a plot by monobear to turn the students against each other. The problem is that if you point out that the blackout was orchestrated, then the obvious thing for everyone else to do is to start poking around working out WHO orchestrated it because that person is Suspect Number 1. How exactly do you expect the exchange to go? Nagito: Well, it looks like the blackout was planned! Everyone else: My God! Then whoever planned the blackout must be the culprit, if Togami was killed under cover of darkness! Nagito: Errrr actually that's not NECESSARILY true and y'know maybe we shouldn't look into that too closely and OH HEY LOOK A THREE-HEADED MONKEY Further, in your particular "gameplan", why would it have been important to point out that there was a planned blackout if Togami was killed from below? How exactly would that have gone towards proving that nobody could have killed Togami? Hell, it goes a ways towards proving that someone DID kill Togami because someone had been setting up a plan of some kind! If the purpose was to excuse Pekoyama, how exactly would pointing out that the blackout was planned help absolve her of potential guilt? By noting that she wasn't the only person to have potentially caused the blackout? Sure, but then that loops right back around to "But then SOMEBODY caused the blackout, and that person is most suspicious!" Ultimately, in any "Nobody killed Togami" scenario, the blackout is just plain irrelevant as far as proving that statement. So why bring it up? As for my explanation of Nagito's "suspicious behavior," that one is very easy to answer: Paranoia and confirmation bias. People have been rumor-swirling about Nagito for a while due to his similarities to Naegi and basically thinking that there must be SOMETHING more than meets the eye. Now that a murder has happened, all that suspicion and scrutiny has dialed itself up to maximum. Anything he does or says that seems like it might hint at something strange is being dragged out as proof of guilt, while the same scrutiny isn't really applied to anybody else - not even Hanamura, who's our actual front-runner for the real murder. Nor is the same scrutiny being applied to reasons why Nagito might not have done it. Seriously, how much of the "proof" of Nagito's wrongdoing revolves nothing more than "I don't trust that guy" and "Well he COULD have done it maybe!"? How much actual, direct positive proof do we have that directly points to Nagito having acted? The answer seems to be what CandyCrazy just posted: Nagito said "Ow." That's it. One word is all it took to set off a series of assumptions and wild speculation and "It's POSSIBLE, therefore it's LIKELY (because I don't trust that guy)!" Except that that one word doesn't actually prove anything. Keep in mind, Nagito was standing near the table Togami was killed under. Sure, it's possible that Togami saw Nagito mucking around somehow - but isn't it just as possible that Togami simply knocked Nagito over in his Kool-Aid Man bullrush to the table? It's simply not conclusive evidence that Nagito did ANYTHING. I wouldn't be so quick to say that it was impossible for Hanamura to have been the one mucking around, either. Sure, it seems like it'd be impossible that Hanamura was in the room. But keep in mind that until Gundam got his earring back, it also seemed impossible for anyone to get under the floorboards. Until we've discovered the nature of the crawlspace and the location of its entrances, we can't yet rule out Hanamura mucking around in the main dining room somehow. There isn't any real REASON why Nagito outright needs to have done something, and there's plenty of problems involved with assuming that he DID do something. So why are we insisting that Nagito must have done anything? Edit: Man, I'm gonna look real dumb if it turns out Nagito was the actual murderer. Edit: quote:Read: Downplaying the storage room, bloody cloth, and insisting that there were no entrances to the crawlspace, etc. Downplaying the storage room - The game being kind enough to tell us that there's no further investigation needed here. Everything else - Nagito not wanting to believe that anyone could have killed a fellow student. Y'know, like he keeps saying, which is consistent with his previous "Come on, let's all try to get along!" behavior. Is there any reason why these proposals are inadequate so far as explaining his behavior is concerned? Tomn fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Mar 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 20, 2013 23:24
|
|
|
Tomn posted:There isn't any real REASON why Nagito outright needs to have done something, and there's plenty of problems involved with assuming that he DID do something. So why are we insisting that Nagito must have done anything? There's never any 100% reason to suspect ANYONE in a murder mystery. Even though the game is set up like a trial, unlike a real trial we don't have to provide evidence of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. We're suspecting him because a lot of separate things are pointing towards him being suspicious. For example: Nagito just happened to have lots ready to be drawn when the party was announced, and he just happened to lose the drawing. This could be a sign that he wanted to be alone in the lodge to set something up. Nagito had plenty of time alone in the lodge to set up the blackout and the knife. While it is possible someone else did it when he left to get the rug, he had the best opportunity to do it. Nagito seemed to have unnatural knowledge of where to find some clues. The plugged in irons and the note in Togami's room, for example. There's plenty of explanations for why he would do this that don't point to his guilt, but all the same its odd. Nagito happened to be standing near the table with knife under it when the power went out. Maybe it was just chance he was there, but all the same it is convenient. Nagito said 'ow' during the blackout. Maybe Togami just bumped into him, or maybe Togami was pushing him away from going for the knife. I may be missing some, but the point is there's a whole bunch of small reasons to suspect Nagito is up to something. Keep in mind we're just guessing the answer, we aren't actually conducting a real trial. There's no way to 100% prove ANYONE did ANYTHING, but there are more reasons to suspect Nagito did something than most of the rest of the cast. There are plenty of complications, the chief one, at least for me being what exactly Nagito was going to do with the knife if he was indeed the one who planted it. It seems a bad plan if he was just going to randomly murder someone with it. But regardless of the reason he would have planted it, it is undeniable that there are reasons to suspect he did. It very may well end up with a situation similar to Togami's corpse-moving shenanigans in case 2 of DR1, where we don't find out the reason someone did something really stupid sounding until towards the end of the trial. But all we have to go off of is the evidence we have seen so far, and based on that, there's more reasons to suspect Nagito of planting the knife than everyone else.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2013 01:37
|
|
|
A potential answer to the implausibility of stabbing in the dark as a means for what is, presumably, the thwarted murder attempt: It isn't just the tape that's covered in glow-in-the-dark paint. So is the knife. That means that when the would-be murderer took it out from under the table during the blackout, everyone would be able to see it. It would act as a beacon, drawing multiple people to the same spot and providing not just a victim (whoever gets killed--the stabber isn't picky) but decoy suspects, as well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2013 01:55
|
|
|
This might be too early to say but so far, I like that the first case of SDR2 is handled a lot better than the first case in DR1. In DR1, our murder mystery was solved rather quickly with the killer's name being displayed for the player in plain sight and the series of events and motives were much easier to figure out. I find this much more enjoyable to read and participate in figuring out who did it and why (albeit it creates some odd speculation). Joining on the speculation train: I'm wondering if Nagito's motives for murder might be: - he was going after the traitor Monobear mentioned. He may not have known who it was or how he was going to kill someone in the dark but was relying on his SHSL Good Luck that whoever he killed would be the traitor. He didn't particularly care if anyone found out what he was doing or going to do (as possibly Hanamura did) but was set on taking out the traitor.  A single person can't do anything significant, and that's exactly why I think we have to help each other. At the same time... I still think I have to get stronger myself. This is a sort of trial we have to pass in order to obtain hope...- This statement sticks out. I wonder if the trial he speaks of is the murder is was going to commit. He could have wanted to give hope to everyone else and in order to do so, they needed to form trust in each other again (something he seems to be firm on is trusting in his friends. I remember he did state that he would rather die than not trust in them). After all, Monobear did provide the students with a motive to kill and the traitor earlier in the game, creating distrust and despair in the group. So he decided to take it upon himself to create a "trial" to give "hope" and "trust" again. You know, "we all have to join together, help each other out and figure out who the murderer is instead of being tempted to kill one another!". I apologize if these theories have been brought up before. Something that seems off with the "Hanamura killed from under the floorboards" theory is: - how was he able to see where he was going since the murder took place in the dark? I don't mean the knife itself but how did was he able to see underneath the floorboards or going from the kitchen to however you get underneath?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2013 03:03
|
|
|
fool_of_sound posted:In a similar vein, I was considering how Monobear (and the students) would respond to an attempted murder with an obvious culprit, but no deaths. Specifically, if the students as a group were to lock the attempted murderer in his/her room (or banish them to another part of the island, away from supplies), and proceed forget about them. Who then would Monobear consider the 'murderer' if the imprisoned student was to later starve to death? My initial thought was the person who first suggested the idea, or cast the deciding vote, but I also considered that maybe he would blame the student who physically turned the key to lock the would-be murderer in, or possibly the student who was keeping or threw away the key. Whoever came up with the idea of exiling the student and depriving them of supplies would be the murderer, in that case.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2013 03:15
|
|
|
mangoman321 posted:I may be missing some, but the point is there's a whole bunch of small reasons to suspect Nagito is up to something. Keep in mind we're just guessing the answer, we aren't actually conducting a real trial. There's no way to 100% prove ANYONE did ANYTHING, but there are more reasons to suspect Nagito did something than most of the rest of the cast. There are plenty of complications, the chief one, at least for me being what exactly Nagito was going to do with the knife if he was indeed the one who planted it. It seems a bad plan if he was just going to randomly murder someone with it. I may have expressed myself badly - when I say that there isn't a real reason to suspect Nagito, I mean that given our current understanding of the scenario, there isn't a real need to slot him in to make events work. That is, Nagito being a second murderer is not necessarily required to make the murder work, as far as we can tell right now. This does not by itself clear Nagito's name, of course. But there are a lot of problems involved if we make the assumption that he was involved - what the heck was his plan? Why was it so haphazard when the earlier plan was so clever and precise? Why is he volunteering information that would implicate him if he was trying to murder someone? How did Hanamura successfully follow Nagito around without him noticing, correctly figure out what his plan was, and then devise a cunning counter-plan to take advantage of that plan? How, exactly, does the whole setup make sense from Nagito's perspective if we're assuming he was attempting murder? If Hanamura was taking advantage of Nagito's murder plan, why isn't he pushing harder to implicate Nagito using that knowledge of the plan? By using Nagito to explain one unanswered question, we're bringing up a whole slew of other unanswered questions which require either an increasingly convoluted series of explanations, or the assumption that Nagito was dumb and/or insane. Sure, you could say that there's a lot of evidence suggesting he's guilty of SOMETHING, but there's just as much evidence suggesting he ISN'T. What I'm saying is that insisting upon Nagito as a second murderer is like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. It COULD sort of work, if you squint your eyes a bit, pound really hard and maybe file off the edges somewhat, but why do you need to go to all that trouble when you have a round peg on hand? The analogy doesn't entirely fit, of course, in that the "lone murderer" theory can't quite explain everything yet, but it'd take only one or two pieces of new evidence to clear that up, whereas the "second murderer" theory would require a whole lot of new evidence and explanations to make everything work out in a sensible manner. So why insist upon Nagito as being the one and only possible solution to the case's great unanswered question when Occam's Razor suggests otherwise? (Also, I am getting right sick of Nagito's name about now, I tell you what.) Tomn fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Mar 21, 2013 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2013 03:23
|
|
|
I can't really understand why, given this collection of evidence, there would be any further doubt about who the actual killer is. I mean, if you're suspicious of Nagito, I understand, but I think he's more of a long term malignancy than a Trial 1 murderer. Plus, he's been waaaaaaaay too helpful. But I dunno, EVERYTHING points to Hanamura, and to suggest any other culprit seems to be reaching at this point. The missing skewer was the murder weapon, probably, using the gaps in the floor, from under the crawlspace. Nagito was in the dining room, and definitely not in the crawlspace, leaving only two people who could have done it, Peko and Hanamura. And since we've exonerated Peko...well, there you have it. Plus, Mikan's pose, or rather that Hanamura said nothing about it, is really damning to his case. I agree Nagito has been fishy, but that really shouldn't be enough of a thing for people to ignore the preponderance of evidence pointing to Hanamura.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2013 03:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 05:29 |
|
|
You know what would be great? If one of those sword-fight debates ended in a blue weak point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2013 03:42
|
|