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I was just reading the interview that the Boston police chief did and I am even more impressed by how the cops handled themselves in contrast to the Dorner situation in Los Angeles. -------- "He all of a sudden comes out from under cover and just starts walking down the street, shooting at our police officers, trying to get closer," Deveau said. "Now, my closest officer is five to 10 feet away, and they're exchanging gunfire between them. And he runs out of ammunition -- the bad guy -- and so one of my police officers comes off the side and tackles him in the street. "We're trying to get him handcuffed. There's two or three police officers handcuffing him in the street -- the older brother. At the same time, at the last minute -- they obviously have tunnel vision, it's a very, very stressful situation -- one of them yells out, 'Look out!' and here comes the black SUV, the carjacked car, directly at them. They dive out of the way, and he (the younger brother) drives over his brother and drags him a short distance down the street." --------
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Apr 20, 2013 18:41
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One thing I've been wondering is how deliberate it was that the police canceled the lockdown when they did. It was about an hour or so before night time and it directly resulted in the guy getting caught (because the boat owner looked through his backyard). Had they waited until night time to release things the owner likely wouldn't have seen or followed up on the tarp issue and/or the guy could have started moving again. I know it struck me as a little pre-mature/deliberate at the time.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:42
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ryan8723 posted:The psychological aspect is a side effect of designing the prison for ultra security. The more security you have, the more it will break a prisoner down. Supermax prisons are not necessarily designed to psychologically or mentally torture, they just do it as side effect of having insane security features. I guarantee you could design in a TV behind an unbreakable glass panel or allow some books or other stuff to stimulate the mind and avoid the mental torture, but Americans are big on retributive justice. Prison rape is a punchline for gently caress's sake.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:42
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Wildlife Analysis posted:This kind of thinking makes you just as bad as the people you are accusing of being inhuman. The point of justice is to serve society and to do so humanely. Yep, I'm just as bad as people who purposely kill, rape and injure hundreds of people  . Please lock me away in Supermax 
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Apr 20, 2013 18:42
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ryan8723 posted:Anyone going to supermax lost the right to be called human when they committed their horrific crime, Supermax prisons are designed entirely around the idea of psychological punishment and I'm completely fine with that. This is aside from the fact that it is torture and we should strive to be better than that.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:42
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:As much as I agree with you for the most part on the general issues with prisons, this is completely wrong. I don't agree, obviously. If your idea of justice is "destroy someone psychologically" instead of, you know, justice then there is something very wrong. Criminals do not stop being human beings because you feel like it.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:42
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ryan8723 posted:Espionage can indirectly cause the deaths of large amounts of people, so no it's not just some unimportant crime. Also, spies are usually experts at human interaction, which means those are the last kind of people you want in a normal prison. Yeah, Supermax isn't just for mass murderers or terrorists. It's also for people that are really loving good at coordinating criminal activity or leaking information that could endanger lives which is why you see a lot of gang higher-ups on Florence's roster.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8yZCAs3Asw
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Apr 20, 2013 18:44
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Wildlife Analysis posted:I don't agree, obviously. If your idea of justice is "destroy someone psychologically" instead of, you know, justice then there is something very wrong. Criminals do not stop being human beings because you feel like it. You can disagree all you want - you are wrong. The people advocating all sorts of mental torture on the person should be ashamed on themselves and are "bad" but they are not equal to someone who actually committed harm to innocents. It's akin to saying someone who wants someone executed for murder is just as bad as the murderer. This is a ridiculously stupid opinion to hold (and I say that as someone who does not agree with capital punishment).
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Apr 20, 2013 18:44
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Justin Godscock posted:Yeah, Supermax isn't just for mass murderers or terrorists. It's also for people that are really loving good at coordinating criminal activity or leaking information that could endanger lives which is why you see a lot of gang higher-ups on Florence's roster.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:45
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I'm curious, if supermax prisons are inhumane, what exactly is humane for a prison? Locking anyone away in any prison could be considered inhumane to some. Where do we draw the line? Don't forget, some guys are isolated for their own protection.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:45
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They obviously didn't give a poo poo about the little boy or the woman who died trying to roll over to hug her friend as she bled out. So gently caress any kind of sympathy bullshit pansy wansy crap you want to say about his rights to be treated like a human being when he would have no less a problem of placing a bomb next to your own mom/dad/sisters/brothers.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:45
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ryan8723 posted:Supermax is honestly worse than death. You are absolutely alone with no human contact in a stainless steel and poured concrete room. As you said, it's basically just a room built entirely around waiting until you die. Really struggling to squeeze out some sympathy for those who land in such a place. vanbags posted:And this kid is only 19. Assuming he lives, he's going to a very long stint in that place. Maybe he should have chose death. I doubt he'll have that long a stay there prior to execution.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:45
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Boston pregame was awesome. I was watching the live look in on ESPN and was wondering why the audio cut out in the middle of Big Papi's speech. Now I know.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:46
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Morally Inept posted:Between this and Dorner I'm just disappointed that mass murderers don't at least plan out this stuff in more detail. They are good at planning the deaths but not the get-away part. I'm quite happy that the people doing these kind of things are not the sharpest tools in the shed. Often surprised, but still happy.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:46
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:You can disagree all you want - you are wrong. You could say that it is "bad" that we are reduced to arguing whether we should be torturers or murderers.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:46
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Mahoning posted:I'm curious, if supermax prisons are inhumane, what exactly is humane for a prison? Locking anyone away in any prison could be considered inhumane to some. There was a point in America's history where government officials visited our prisons because they were so humane in comparison to the rest of the world (of course this was well over a hundred years ago). the black husserl posted:You could say that it is "bad" that we are reduced to arguing whether we should be torturers or murderers. No it isn't - there was an important word in there you missed.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:46
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Fog Tripper posted:Really struggling to squeeze out some sympathy for those who land in such a place. Remember the possibility (no matter how minute) of someone landing there after being framed.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:46
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Murder is bad so therefore anyone who commits murder should be raped and tortured. Rehabilitation? That sounds pretty Un-American to me.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:47
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Only bad people go to prison. People who commit no crimes have nothing to fear. 
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Apr 20, 2013 18:47
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:There was a point in America's history where government officials visited our prisons because they were so humane in comparison to the rest of the world (of course this was well over a hundred years ago). I think it is objectively "bad" that we have to decide between torture or execution, yup.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:48
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VarXX posted:Murder is bad so therefore anyone who commits murder should be raped and tortured This instantly makes me feel good inside so it must be correct.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:48
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vanbags posted:How is that relevant to psychological torture which you advocated? I'm not advocating psychological torture. I'm advocating Supermax, which is designed for maximum security. The fact that it causes prisoners to break down is a function of the way it's designed for security not because it's designed to cause psychological problems. All I have said is that I don't give a poo poo about prisoners who get sent there because if you deserve Supermax, then you're a really really bad person.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:48
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ryan8723 posted:I'm not advocating psychological torture. I'm advocating Supermax, which is designed for maximum security. The fact that it causes prisoners to break down is a function of the way it's designed for security not because it's designed to cause psychological problems. The kind of isolation experienced in supermax prisons goes above and beyond what is necessary for "maximum security".
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Apr 20, 2013 18:50
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gently caress This Puzzle posted:You can disagree all you want - you are wrong. I am glad that you are the last arbitrator on what is right and wrong. The issue is that the people who advocate this kind of extremist view of justice do end up harming people. Innocent people in some cases. The reason society allows for the torture and rape of inmates is because there are a lot of people who are permissive of it. It is incredibly disgusting. Society does not become a better place by advocating death and torture.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:51
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ryan8723 posted:All I have said is that I don't give a poo poo about prisoners who get sent there because if you deserve Supermax, then you're a really really bad person.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:51
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Mahoning posted:I'm curious, if supermax prisons are inhumane, what exactly is humane for a prison? Locking anyone away in any prison could be considered inhumane to some. Considering the wider state of the US prison system (a barbaric, hellish place), this question is hard to answer, where the vast majority of prisoners live inside a brutal machine. I think all we can say with certainty is "our rehabilitation system should not look like this."
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Apr 20, 2013 18:51
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ryan8723 posted:I'm not advocating psychological torture. I'm advocating Supermax, which is designed for maximum security. The fact that it causes prisoners to break down is a function of the way it's designed for security not because it's designed to cause psychological problems. ryan8723 posted:Anyone going to supermax lost the right to be called human when they committed their horrific crime, Supermax prisons are designed entirely around the idea of psychological punishment and I'm completely fine with that.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:52
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the black husserl posted:It was pretty cool when Brevik said "I did this in part because I know you will execute me and prove that you are killers too" and Norway said "nope". Not really what Brevik said. He said that only two outcomes were morally acceptable- the death penalty or acquittal. He was well aware that there was no death penalty in his country and that the maximum sentence under Norwegian law was 21 years in a relatively comfy conditions, which he claimed was a ridiculously lenient punishment for mass murder.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:52
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Im not sure if this has been asked or even answered anywhere. In the videos I've seen of the shootout with the two brothers early Friday I'm able to hear at least two different types of guns being fired. Have the firearms that the brothers had been identified?? Or can any TFR types ID them based by sound?
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Apr 20, 2013 18:52
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Justin Godscock posted:No, it's a good question and it's good understanding of the legal process that's going to happen. The FBI needs either footage of the duo planting the bombs and of them going off or at the very least an ironclad confession in order for the defence not to poke a bunch of reasonable doubt. I truly believe this guy will confess because his life is really over one way or another. Yeah, plus now that he's in custody they can accumulate even more evidence--maybe any fingerprints, etc. he may have left on anything, any purchase information for the materials they used, anything they may have left behind where they lived, etc., etc., etc. Video of them doing it or an "ironclad confession" certainly are not necessary to obtain a conviction.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:53
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TPM posted:We just got a bit more information about the final break in this case, how and who found the suspect. According to the Boston Police Commissioner, a man in a house in Watertown came out of his house for the first time this afternoon after authorities said people could safely come out of their homes. He saw blood on the cover of his boat (perhaps a tarp or a winter shrink wrap). He approached the boat and looked in and saw a man covered in blood inside the boat. He rushed back into the house and called the police. So my source was correct and it wasn't the thermal imaging. I'm glad they caught him, but I have to ask how the gently caress the cops didn't catch this when the house was inside the perimeter.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:54
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Wildlife Analysis posted:The issue is that the people who advocate this kind of extremist view of justice do end up harming people. Innocent people in some cases. The reason society allows for the torture and rape of inmates is because there are a lot of people who are permissive of it. It is incredibly disgusting. Society does not become a better place by advocating death and torture. And while all of this is true, it doesn't make any of the people in this thread equal in "badness" to a person who set off a bomb which killed and maimed dozens of people. Unless, of course, they're prison guards and officials and personally are committing these people to isolation and torture.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:54
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Paul MaudDib posted:but Americans are big on retributive justice. Yeah, we're such a special snowflake compared to the rest of the globe.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:55
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WoodrowSkillson posted:And only deserving people will ever go there. What gently caress do you people want? A perfect justice system is loving impossible. For these types of criminals, who are beyond a shadow of doubt guilty, how would you design the prison knowing that they will be there for life and have no possibility of parole? I feel like some of you want prisons to be loving country clubs because "They might be innocent ".
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Apr 20, 2013 18:55
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WoodrowSkillson posted:And only deserving people will ever go there. I don't think you were framing it that way but I know others will, debating its' efficacy. Whether it's "effective" or not should be beside the point.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:56
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vanbags posted:I guess I misinterpreted your original statement. Eh I misspoke, that wasn't my intention and I apologize for giving that impression.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:56
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ryan8723 posted:What gently caress do you people want? A perfect justice system is loving impossible. For these types of criminals, who are beyond a shadow of doubt guilty, how would you design the prison knowing that they will be there for life and have no possibility of parole? Similar to the norwegian prison system yes.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:56
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ryan8723 posted:What gently caress do you people want? A perfect justice system is loving impossible. For these types of criminals, who are beyond a shadow of doubt guilty, how would you design the prison knowing that they will be there for life and have no possibility of parole? It's more the idea that you should be judged how you treat your society's worst. America's prison system was much more humane a century or more ago. There's no reason for it to be like it is. Hell, just being removed from society is a horrible thing.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:56
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Gio posted:Usually when you start judging people as "not human" and wish violence on them it doesnt end with those who "deserve it". Actually it usually doesn't lead to anything at all. Some people have rear end in a top hat opinions. I'm surprised you haven't learned this by now.
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Apr 20, 2013 18:57
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