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beejay posted:That's... not really how it works in a case like this. Not sure what he's charged with at the moment but in the case of 1st degree murder: "any murder that is willful and premeditated." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_%28United_States_law%29#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States beejay posted:Gonna assume you are trolling at this point, but if a person honestly blew a bunch of people up and didn't mean to, they would probably turn themselves in as soon as possible, rather than participating in further murders and maimings while running from the law. People do crazy loving poo poo when they panic: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,47361,00.html virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Apr 20, 2013 |
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Apr 20, 2013 23:13
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Updated the painting-added box of wires, tactical bears, lobsters around the perimeter, in and out sign, etc. Made Sergeant Feedback more feedbacky.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:13
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Wildlife Analysis posted:Yeah, but why do people who are Muslim "hate America/Americans" and white people only have mental illnesses? What is the difference that I am not seeing here? Not all Muslims hate America. Many Muslims are American. But people who are members of terrorist groups such as Al Quaida/Hammas/ect. do objectively hate Americans and anyone else they perceive as members of Western society. They hate "us" because we do not conform to a strict observance of the laws of Islam. It isn't some jingoistic "ooorah America!" thing to say. It is literally their rationale.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:14
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Taliaquin posted:Morbid question time -- the report on the older brother's death earlier indicates that a bomb detonated in his hand, but the Washington Post article on the doctor's statement says that his arms and legs were intact and he wasn't "blown to pieces." Weak explosive? Also, if he did lob a pressure cooker bomb at police (didn't a goon calculate that thing would weigh between 25-40 pounds?), how did it "detonate harmlessly," as the article puts it? I believe when he threw the pressure cooker bomb the lid popped off or the pressure seal was otherwise compromised when it hit before it went off, without the pressure seal, the explosion would be much much less powerful.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:14
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Wildlife Analysis posted:Do you not see the issue with claiming an olive-skinned Muslim "hates America"? Yeah, which is why I edited in a clarification. I was agreeing that claiming everyone who commits violent acts is crazy is wrong, but if there is a reason it's probably not "Hates Americans".
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Apr 20, 2013 23:14
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SlenderWhore posted:Not all Muslims hate America. Many Muslims are American. But people who are members of terrorist groups such as Al Quaida/Hammas/ect. do objectively hate Americans and anyone else they perceive as members of Western society. They hate "us" because we do not conform to a strict observance of the laws of Islam.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:15
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COUNTIN THE BILLIES posted:The key question I'm wondering: why release the hostage? Maybe their plan after loading up and cashing up was to get the hell out of dodge and having a hostage/dead body makes that harder. They could have thrown him out at gun point, it's not like they dropped the guy off at his house. I don't know though, it's all conjecture.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:15
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SlenderWhore posted:Not all Muslims hate America. Many Muslims are American. But people who are members of terrorist groups such as Al Quaida/Hammas/ect. do objectively hate Americans and anyone else they perceive as members of Western society. They hate "us" because we do not conform to a strict observance of the laws of Islam. There is no evidence so far that he was a member of Al Qaeda or any other terrorist group. The kid is an American and should be treated like any other American. No one rushes to say that white mass shooters hate America.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:15
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If it actually says "Terrorista #1" on the plate, someone in the Massachusetts DMV may have hosed up. They have to approve and then manufacture these plates.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:15
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beejay posted:Gonna assume you are trolling at this point, but if a person honestly blew a bunch of people up and didn't mean to, they would probably turn themselves in as soon as possible, rather than participating in further murders and maimings while running from the law. Unless your brother stopped you from doing so in whatever way he usually convinces you to do stupid poo poo.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:17
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Spoeank posted:Maybe their plan after loading up and cashing up was to get the hell out of dodge and having a hostage/dead body makes that harder. They could have thrown him out at gun point, it's not like they dropped the guy off at his house. Well, lettign the hostage go was their undoing from the wapo article.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:17
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SlenderWhore posted:Not all Muslims hate America. Many Muslims are American. But people who are members of terrorist groups such as Al Quaida/Hammas/ect. do objectively hate Americans and anyone else they perceive as members of Western society. They hate "us" because we do not conform to a strict observance of the laws of Islam. It isn't some jingoistic "ooorah America!" thing to say. It is literally their rationale. Do they hate Brazilians, the Japanese, and Kiwis for not conforming to a strict observance of the law of Islam?
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Apr 20, 2013 23:17
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Wildlife Analysis posted:There is no evidence so far that he was a member of Al Qaeda or any other terrorist group. The kid is an American and should be treated like any other American. No one rushes to say that white mass shooters hate America. Suspect 1 (the elder brother) is confirmed to have lots of pro-fundamentalist Islam videos on his Youtube playlist. I know it's not concrete proof, but he does at least have an interest in far-right Islam. quote:Do they hate Brazilians, the Japanese, and Kiwis for not conforming to a strict observance of the law of Islam? I would assume so, judging by their usual rhetoric and the actions they take against non-believers. Like seriously, what is this post about? Captain Mog fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 20, 2013 |
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Apr 20, 2013 23:18
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DongsMcMurphy posted:If it actually says "Terrorista #1" on the plate, someone in the Massachusetts DMV may have hosed up. They have to approve and then manufacture these plates. That's not an official plate. Way too many letters, for one thing.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:19
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DongsMcMurphy posted:If it actually says "Terrorista #1" on the plate, someone in the Massachusetts DMV may have hosed up. They have to approve and then manufacture these plates. Or, you know, Mass is one of those states that does not require two plates, and it was a store-bought vanity plate. It could be Tsarnaev #7 for all we know.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:19
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"Hey brother, I need you to walk five feet behind me and carry this backpack to the finish line and set it down. Don't look in the bag. It's full of jelly beans. I'll tell you what's in it, but don't look in the bag. This isn't weird at all, is it? Ok let's go." "Ok well brother now you know we killed some people, I'm glad it doesn't bother you and you can continue on your day as if nothing happened. Hell, go to a party brother. Ok brother, well looks like the police found us, we need to get our guns and grenades and sneak out, if we get made, we'll kill anybody in our way. I'm so glad you're completely ok with this brother." -FBI cell phone log e- "Hey brother, it's me from the grave. Lots of virgins up in here. Ok I need you to continue evading the police. Keep shooting at them. I'm really proud of you brother for acting like none of this is wrong" ethanol fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Apr 20, 2013 |
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Apr 20, 2013 23:19
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Yeah ok, his brother did all of this completely on his own and then made his brother participate at the last minute for ~reasons~ and then held him prisoner for the next several days while forcing him to commit several more heinous crimes. I'm not even sure what is happening here.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:19
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Yeah, which is why I edited in a clarification. I was agreeing that claiming everyone who commits violent acts is crazy is wrong, but if there is a reason it's probably not "Hates Americans". Yeah, it is not clear if he was a psycho/sociopath or not. We know literally nothing about his motivations and should probably wait until information starts dribbling out. The fact that a poster with the name "Russkie" (Russian) is claiming he maybe just hates America is a laugh to me, though.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:20
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toadee posted:I believe when he threw the pressure cooker bomb the lid popped off or the pressure seal was otherwise compromised when it hit before it went off, without the pressure seal, the explosion would be much much less powerful.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:20
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SlenderWhore posted:Suspect 1 (the elder brother) is confirmed to have lots of pro-fundamentalist Islam videos on his Youtube playlist. I know it's not concrete proof, but he does at least have an interest in far-right Islam. This reflects on his brothers reasoning, not his own. There is no reason to rush to claim he hates Americans.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:21
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big duck equals goose posted:Brazilians I play dota with tell me all the time they hate Americans, but I don't think they bomb marathons. poo poo. I am a caucasian american male, and I hate americans.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:22
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Wildlife Analysis posted:I think it is a bit premature to say that he "hates Americans" and seems like an attempt to Otherize him. Did James Holmes just "hate Americans", what about Jared Loughner? I don't think he's crazy. I think he's just a 19 year old idiot who picked an issue to be extremely passionate about, and thought that blowing up people was the right thing to do. He seems concerned about the status of Muslims around the world. For example, his VK page had a joke with "chechen, dagestani and ingush sitting in a car. Who's driving? The police officer." He posted that around March this year, then went and blew up the marathon last week. Heh. And for your information, a lot of people hate Americans around the world. It's mostly out of ignorance, not crazyness. In somewhat related news, Russia asked the FBI to investigate the older brother around 2011. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/20/us-usa-explosions-boston-russia-idUSBRE93J0F620130420
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Apr 20, 2013 23:24
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Today one of the cable news talking heads said something along the lines of "The police aren't able to talk with the suspect yet, which makes sense considering the injury to his mouth." Is that injury something that's official, or is that based on speculation?
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Apr 20, 2013 23:24
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:The degree of his punishment should match the degree of his involvement. Prove he knew what he was doing at the time of the act. I hope the evidence is out there in FBI's hands, but you can't simply through judgement calls like this out there without tangible evidence. Can't drink = kid doing high level post secondary ed = kid That's semantics, but has any evidence been found that showed he was "roped" into this, outside of twitter and this thread?
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Apr 20, 2013 23:25
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Taliaquin posted:I can't imagine actually trying to throw one, especially when it's loaded with, presumably, an incendiary substance and shrapnel. The pressure cooker throw is under consideration for inclusion in the Extremist Olympics.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:25
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beejay posted:Yeah ok, his brother did all of this completely on his own and then made his brother participate at the last minute for ~reasons~ and then held him prisoner for the next several days while forcing him to commit several more heinous crimes. Poor young innocent kid was manipulated into bombing a crowd by his evil older brother and then panicked for several days by acting completely normal and relaxed before trying to go out in a firey blaze. If I'd tried to manipulate my little sister into doing something like that she'd probably either murder me and throw my body into the sewage treatment plant she works at, or turn me over to the police and then murder me.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:26
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beejay posted:Yeah ok, his brother did all of this completely on his own and then made his brother participate at the last minute for ~reasons~ and then held him prisoner for the next several days while forcing him to commit several more heinous crimes. I'm not being facetious, but do you have evidence that suggests otherwise? Honestly. What I know: He was involved in a drop off a bag of explosives. He was involved in the shooting of an MIT Officer (not sure who pulled the trigger) He was involved in a car jacking (level of his involvement can range from standing and watching to actively holding a gun to the driver's head) He was involved in a shoot out with police He ran over his brother He eluded police officers Please show me evidence of premeditated intent and his level of involvement for each. The most I am aware of is: He physically dropped of the bag He was present when the MIT Officer was murdered He was present at the car jacking He fired rounds at the police He ran over his brother He eluded police. If you or anyone has more info, let me know.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:27
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COUNTIN THE BILLIES posted:The key question I'm wondering: why release the hostage? Why tell the dude you're the people who bombed the marathon? Maybe as far as that guy knows you're just carjacking him and trying to get money? Especially if they were planning on letting him go? Hardly any of this makes sense. I think we'll need the FBI/whoever to release their detailed account of what happened before/after the bombing (and leading up to/during the whole manhunt thing) before we really know anything. Lots of conflicting and unclear reports. Of course it will give the  crowd plenty of time to come up with theories
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Apr 20, 2013 23:27
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platedlizard posted:Poor young innocent kid was manipulated into bombing a crowd by his evil older brother and then panicked for several days by acting completely normal and relaxed before trying to go out in a firey blaze. One thing you should note though is that it's really, really easy to hide your emotional state if you're just typing.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:28
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Not sure what he's charged with at the moment but in the case of 1st degree murder: "any murder that is willful and premeditated." Pointing out that your theory is vaguely possible doesn't mean it's likely. This isn't a simple situation, but the far simpler explanation (given his behavior during and after the bombings) is that he knew what he was doing. If he was an unwitting accomplice who just reacts very cavalierly to having accidentally murdered people, evidence of that should come out in his trial. Until then, all we have are our assumptions based on current information, and we may as well make sure our assumptions are consistent with the simplest and most typical explanations for what we know happened.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:28
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No I do not have evidence. I'm not in the FBI or a federal or state prosecutor, sorry for any confusion.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:28
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ethanol posted:"Hey brother, I need you to walk five feet behind me and carry this backpack to the finish line and set it down. Don't look in the bag. It's full of jelly beans. I'll tell you what's in it, but don't look in the bag. This isn't weird at all, is it? Ok let's go." "Ok well brother now you know we killed some people, I'm glad it doesn't bother you and you can continue on your day as if nothing happened. Hell, go to a party brother. Ok brother, well looks like the police found us, we need to get our guns and grenades and sneak out, if we get made, we'll kill anybody in our way. I'm so glad you're completely ok with this brother." -FBI cell phone log "I can get us out of this, just do what I say" If (that's if) he was pressured/convinced by his brother, then he would look to him as the leader. Once things went to poo poo and he ran his brother over in panic, perhaps he went straight for the boat to just hide in fear. Then again if he was a hardass terrorista numba 1 maybe he purposely ran him over to prevent capture (this Chechen ain't chicken), and had no ammo to off himself in the boat after the little firefight at the end. Did he have any rounds in any weapons he was captured with? There's really not a definitive narrative here that's more worthwhile than all others absent information towards one end or another. Maybe it's a little of both where he started serious and lost his nerve sometime after the brother-as-speedbump episode. Maybe he started off shaky, went all in after the shootout, then went knock-kneed again and hid in the boat. gently caress, maybe he was hallucinating the whole time and big shocker we aren't the Geth.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:28
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Pycckuu posted:I don't think he's crazy. I think he's just a 19 year old idiot who picked an issue to be extremely passionate about, and thought that blowing up people was the right thing to do. He seems concerned about the status of Muslims around the world. For example, his VK page had a joke with "chechen, dagestani and ingush sitting in a car. Who's driving? The police officer." He posted that around March this year, then went and blew up the marathon last week. Heh. We have no idea if this was his actual motivation. The fact that he is a Chechen Muslim does not make him "hate America" or any other such crap. The fact that you seem to speak Russian and have a Russian username makes me less than willing to invest much in your opinion.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:29
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beejay posted:Yeah ok, his brother did all of this completely on his own and then made his brother participate at the last minute for ~reasons~ and then held him prisoner for the next several days while forcing him to commit several more heinous crimes. He could've been indoctrinated or even straight up threatened("If you don't help, I'll make sure your friends in your dorms/on the wrestling team are blown up too!" kind of thing) into complying, in which case it would be easier to rehabilitate him. No one's saying just let him go, just that we should thoroughly investigate the hows and whys of this situation, and adjust the punishment accordingly. If he did it willingly on his own, give him a life sentence. If he was forced/tricked/indoctrinated into it, give him a long but lesser sentence, give him counseling, and maybe even have him help the FBI study the methods his brother used. If he's mentally ill, have him receive mental health treatment and keep him in a mental health care facility. Intent and other circumstances is used all the time in law, and justice shouldn't make exceptions because some crimes make us angrier than others.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:29
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The Entire Universe posted:Or, you know, Mass is one of those states that does not require two plates, and it was a store-bought vanity plate. It could be Tsarnaev #7 for all we know. Mass RMV (we are too good for your DMV) does require 2 plates. Who knows how he managed to get that one approved.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:30
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The Entire Universe posted:"I can get us out of this, just do what I say" Guess what, that still makes him a murderer and a terrorist. Unless you think "My brother made me do it" is going to hold up in court. It certainly never worked on my mom.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:30
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ethanol posted:"Hey brother, I need you to walk five feet behind me and carry this backpack to the finish line and set it down. Don't look in the bag. It's full of jelly beans. I'll tell you what's in it, but don't look in the bag. This isn't weird at all, is it? Ok let's go." "Ok well brother now you know we killed some people, I'm glad it doesn't bother you and you can continue on your day as if nothing happened. Hell, go to a party brother. Ok brother, well looks like the police found us, we need to get our guns and grenades and sneak out, if we get made, we'll kill anybody in our way. I'm so glad you're completely ok with this brother." -FBI cell phone log Uuuuh, more like... "Hey man, wanna freak some people out? This bag'll go up with fuckin' ill fireworks in the middle of the marathon. It'll be sweet, bro!" "Hey, HEY! Chill man, they don't know who we are, we're just a couple of faces in a crowd. Those stupid pigs'll never put it together. And don't you bring up that stupid giving up poo poo from earlier again. You stayin' with ME from now on!" "gently caress- gently caress! Here they come, get ready! ... ... SHOOT! SHOOT! *bangbangbang* We need a ride- stop that fucka in the SUV! Right, now we gotta get back and get the rest. YES the rest!" "Get the poo poo out of the closet. Yes I loving have more, don't ask me poo poo, we gotta go NOW. Here, keep this with you and you be sure to not let those pigs take you in alive. We do this TOGETHER! Nobody gonna take us apart!" And from reports, it was the big brother throwing the bombs from the car, right? I could kinda believe all this to be true.  And this poo poo with the boat? Man if I ran over my own brother I'd probably be crying in a boat shooting at the nearest thing to grab my attention too. Edit: But don't get me wrong, toss him away for life.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:31
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:He could've been indoctrinated or even straight up threatened("If you don't help, I'll make sure your friends in your dorms/on the wrestling team are blown up too!" kind of thing) into complying, in which case it would be easier to rehabilitate him. Haha,come on dude. You read what type, right?
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Apr 20, 2013 23:31
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COUNTIN THE BILLIES posted:The key question I'm wondering: why release the hostage? Guy wasn't a cop and he wasn't some faceless person in the crowd. It's harder to kill someone you relate to as a person, especially up close and personal. At least, that's my guess. We probably won't know until rear end in a top hat #2 wakes up.
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Apr 20, 2013 23:31
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:I'm seeing a 1024x768 image with jpg artifacts and compression artifacts from Imgur. Is that seriously the best quality image of it there is? The car was located and the friends really were arrested (I thought that was a joke earlier.) It reads Terrorista #1. (Sorry for linking to the Daily Mail, they're the only ones I found with clear photos.)  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2312123/Boston-latest-Terrorista-1-license-plate-friends-Boston-bomber-arrested-female.html
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Apr 20, 2013 23:32
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