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Cubemario posted:Suddenly the series has just made a lot more sense, even if 4.44 doesn't touch on this, I would consider this canon. Of course it's not a full explanation, and that doesn't account for a bunch of events in Rebuild, but it's certainly a good explanation to what's going on in the long run. Personally I'd be satisfied with 4.44 if they just have a resolution that doesn't end with everyone turning into goo. Basically just don't have an ending like EoE and I'll be able to accept it. I think the canon/non-canon stuff has to do with contradiction. If anything comes out as fact in Eva, it is fact, until it gets contradicted by a higher source of canon. I think the order is TV/Movies, Manga, games. So if nothing ever comes out in 4.44 that contradicts anything in the games, they are trustworthy, and so far I don't think anything has. If even one detail from the games gets contradicted later it will put all of the information under scrutiny. Why do I know all of this poo poo I've only been into Eva for a few months... SHISHKABOB posted:I guess the real question is why do they even have a "core" in the first place. Aren't the Angels supposed to be humans who ate of the tree of life rather than the tree of knowledge? Why don't we have big red cores inside of us? Doesn't Unit-01 eat the SS engine out of the previously mentioned almost-killed-everyone Angel? I'm pretty sure SS stands for Super-Solenoid, which is a thing related to electromagnetism. So why do they have big "engines" inside of them? Unless of course they just call it an SS engine for lack of a better name. Angel's aren't humans, they are a totally separate, non carbon-based form of life. s2 engines are organs that Angels have which provide all their power. It is always described as a mechanical thing which is confusing, but Eva 01 rips one out of Zeruel and eats it like a liver. Experimenting with the s2 engine taken from a dead Angel is what caused unit-04 in Nevada to explode, or wipe the facility from the face of the earth. The facility was actually swallowed by a Sea of Dirac. Eventually Seele perfected s2 technology and the white Mass Produced Evas have them installed, allowing them to do that crazy regeneration. Shinji was able to force Unit-01 to regenerate like the MP Evas but it has always happened in beast mode, and it's unclear if Shinji was really in control of 01 or if Yui was working through Shinji's body out of maternal instinct, so Eva's may be able to use human pilots as an s2 engine if the situation is dire enough. EDIT: The s2 engine is INSIDE the core it turns out, which is why Angels can repair themselves, and why destroying the core kills them outright. From the wiki: An intact Sē Engine is never seen in the show, although it is known to be double-helical in structure, much like DNA.[8] (Regular solenoids are shaped like spirals.) Why the name "engine" was applied to what is unarguably a flesh and blood organ[6] is never stated. It appears consistent with the show's tendency to disguise the inherently biological with terms of mechanical connotation. Incidentally, written with different kanji, 器官, "kikan" does mean "organ", providing a bit of wordplay that doesn't translate into English. bring back old gbs fucked around with this message at 22:22 on May 7, 2013 |
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May 7, 2013 21:58
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ACanofPepsi posted:I believe the reason Lilith's legs are missing is because of all the physical samples they needed to take in order to create the Evas. Not too sure about that though. I'm not sure if links to EvaGeeks are okay but this suggests that Lilith was forcibly bifurcated and her lower half used to grow Eva Unit-01.
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May 7, 2013 23:28
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ACanofPepsi posted:So where the gently caress is Lilith during the events of 3.3? We see Adam (Or at least the briefcase he is stored in) on Gendo's desk. Did you watch 1.11? 
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May 8, 2013 01:10
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Also the briefcase in Rebuild doesn't have Adam in it, it's something else ("The Key of Nebuchadnezzar") instead. In fact, as far as Rebuild goes, you're probably better off assuming that none of the PS2 infodump is still accurate. EDIT: Apparently the name Nebuchadnezzar literally means "God, preserve my firstborn son." There is no  big enough.
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:18 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 01:13
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Popehoist posted:Did you watch 1.11? That was supposed to be EVA Mk. 6, since Seele had built it differently than the other Evas.
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May 8, 2013 01:19
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Dr. Killjoy posted:That was supposed to be EVA Mk. 6, since Seele had built it differently than the other Evas. Well yeah, they built it by putting a bunch of armour on Lilith.
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May 8, 2013 01:34
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Humans don't have cores because they are the ultimate product of the Fruit of Knowledge evolutionary cycle. Where Angels have S2 engines, humans have brains. Combine the two, like Unit 01 does when it eats Zeruel's core, and you become God. 
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May 8, 2013 01:40
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Popehoist posted:Well yeah, they built it by putting a bunch of armour on Lilith. Then who is this supposed to be? 
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May 8, 2013 02:47
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SPICE MUST FLOW posted:Then who is this supposed to be?
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May 8, 2013 03:01
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SPICE MUST FLOW posted:Then who is this supposed to be? Its about five eyes short of being lilith, chief.
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May 8, 2013 03:36
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Oh my god what if Kaworu's confusion in the original series is because Adam was in the basement in this timeline D:
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May 8, 2013 04:03
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IIRC in the original series Kaji was also adamant (heh) that it was Adam in the basement as well.
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May 8, 2013 05:52
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SHISHKABOB posted:or the big white floating circle thing that tried to meld with Rei or whatever. It did though, because it had a mucher weaker A.T. Field as personified by the fact once it started trying to control Rei, Rei subconscious completely dominated it, and tried to meld with Shinji as opposed to head to Lilith.
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May 8, 2013 06:25
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Neat Jazz cover of the Cruel Angel's Thesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm2U5ThO1Lg It didn't do much for me at first but the more I listened the more I liked it.
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May 8, 2013 11:10
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ShardPhoenix posted:Neat Jazz cover of the Cruel Angel's Thesis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI-Tvf9jmGs I've been listening to this one a bit lately. I think it's pretty neat, though the comments make me want to kick something. cptn_dr fucked around with this message at 11:22 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 11:20
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A thought on the comparisons of rebuild Shinji to Simon a few pages back: Right before Shinji embarks in EVA 13, and throws reason to the curb with reckless abandon, you can see him and Kaworu doing Simon's trademark arms crossed pose. Also Kaworu seems to fill into more of an older brother/mentor figure as the romantic element of their relation is heavily downplayed compared to the original Eva. Perhaps they were trying to set up some parallels with Kamina? Has Anno ever said anything about Gurren Lagann considering it's basically seen as a direct response to Eva?
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May 8, 2013 12:07
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I haven't gotten around to watching 3.33 yet, but I noticed kind of an interesting parallel between Shinji's characterization (particularly in 2.22) and Simon's characterization in Gurren Lagann. At the end of Gurren Lagann, Simon prioritizes the safety of humanity over the safety of Nia, even though the latter was arguably a bigger reason why he gave a poo poo in the first place. The show doesn't really make this a hundred percent clear, but in the second movie it's straight-up said that he let her die at the end because abusing Spiral Energy to save his love interest would potentially break the universe, sad as it is. Shinji, at the end of 2.22, takes the exact opposite approach from that and consciously chooses to sacrifice anything and everything in the name of bringing Rei back. The only reason he doesn't go through with killing all of humanity for her is because he gets speared by Kaworu in the stinger. For all the "ooh Shinji channeled Simon!" talk I've heard, it kind of amuses me that they act in polar opposite ways in their "badass" moments. (I'm sorta going off memory for the GL stuff since it's been a while, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Also, are we still spoiler-tagging stuff from 1.11 and 2.22?)
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May 8, 2013 15:02
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Stairmaster posted:
It actually predates TTGL by many, many years. (And if you haven't, see Gunbuster. It's as much of a prequel to Eva as UFO is)  
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May 8, 2013 15:47
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WickedIcon posted:Shinji, at the end of 2.22, takes the exact opposite approach from that and consciously chooses to sacrifice anything and everything in the name of bringing Rei back. The only reason he doesn't go through with killing all of humanity for her is because he gets speared by Kaworu in the stinger.
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May 8, 2013 16:11
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Paracelsus posted:As I've said before, it really didn't come across this way to me. He didn't actually know what he was doing, only what goal he was working towards. He disregarded possible consequences, yes, but those consequences weren't something he (or, for that matter, anyone but Gendo and Seele) could have known about. I'm not saying he deliberately started Third Impact (from what I understand, 3.33 directly contradicts that assertion), just that he consciously decided he only cared what happened to Rei, even if it meant his death or the death of everyone else. In fact, he straight up says that.
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May 8, 2013 16:23
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WickedIcon posted:I'm not saying he deliberately started Third Impact (from what I understand, 3.33 directly contradicts that assertion), just that he consciously decided he only cared what happened to Rei, even if it meant his death or the death of everyone else. In fact, he straight up says that.
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May 8, 2013 16:49
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Part of it though is he never does anything to fully understand anything, with the one time being why Asuka looks the same after 14 years. He gets told that grabbing two spears will fix everything on face value and then disregards being told not to pick them up right after arriving. He gets blinded by what he wants to do that he doesn't pay any attention to what is going on around him when very obvious bad things are happening.
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May 8, 2013 18:24
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In 3, sure, but back in 2 he was tearing apart an Angel just like he was supposed to (and was being encouraged to do so by those he trusted), and by the time actual third impact stuff started happening he was already well beyond any awareness of the outside world.
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May 8, 2013 19:09
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mr. stefan posted:Its about five eyes short of being lilith, chief. That makes sense but why didn't Kaworu say anything about it? When they descend into Terminal Dogma he points out that it is Lilith's corpse and Mark 06 separately.
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May 9, 2013 01:39
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Terminal Entropy posted:Part of it though is he never does anything to fully understand anything, with the one time being why Asuka looks the same after 14 years. He gets told that grabbing two spears will fix everything on face value and then disregards being told not to pick them up right after arriving. The problem with this is, people went out of their way to ensure that he doesn't get to know anything about the significance of his actions. Misato, Asuka, and the rest of WILLE are a bunch of hypocrites. Gendo is a loving dick keeping Shinji in the dark just enough to get him to do what he wants. 3rd and 4th Impact are just as much the fault of Misato and co. not being honest and forthright with Shinji. They cheer him on as he causes the apocalypse one moment and then next blame him for consequences he couldn't know would happen, and drive him back to his Father who wants to end the world.
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May 9, 2013 02:37
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It doesn't matter if anyone at Willie would have told him or not: within the span of a five minute conversation he goes from saying he will never pilot an Eva again to putting a plug suit on. He ignores anything any one tells him unless it is something he wants to hear. Yeah Misato is being a bit of a hypocrite cheering him as he starts the Third Impact but she blinded just as much as he was by her grudge against Angels. She has a bit of a grudge against him in 3 but it is mainly against Nerv/Gendo/Seele for their work against bringing another Impact, if not against herself as well for originally helping them along. She feel into the same blindness of not questioning what was going on and why as everything was inline with getting her revenge. The two are perfect foils for each other: he runs away from his problems rather than confront them; she confronts them head on but her agency makes them worse just as much as his running.
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May 9, 2013 03:24
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Terminal Entropy posted:The two are perfect foils for each other: he runs away from his problems rather than confront them; she confronts them head on but her agency makes them worse just as much as his running. He isn't running away from his problems though, he's being just like her and confronting them head on. Just like her his agency makes things worse because like her he doesn't think through his actions. Evangelion was about how retreating from the world and other people just made you lonely and worsened your problems. Rebuild seems to saying just recklessly charging forward in life and not trying to understand yourself and the world around is just as dumb for the same reason. You'll only make yourself lonely and hurt others.
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May 9, 2013 04:54
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Undead Unicorn posted:He isn't running away from his problems though, he's being just like her and confronting them head on. Just like her his agency makes things worse because like her he doesn't think through his actions. That seems to be the thesis I'm getting as well. It seems like the original series ultimately had a message of "Hey all you potentially depressed Otaku/Shut-Ins/Misanthropes, I know life can suck but you really shouldn't give up on it or the people in it." It felt like the first two movies mostly recapped on that theme, but as we get later into the series I feel like they're adding an addendum of something like "Also, just because you engage with the world doesn't mean everything will be hunky-dory either - be considerate about your actions and how they relate to the social context in which they are performed and how they affect people around you and don't be a weird/self-centered jackass." Or something.
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May 9, 2013 05:27
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So I'm finally watching 3.33, and Shinji talking to the new Rei as if she was the old one, and her just  ing at him because she has no clue what he's talking about is the funniest poo poo.  It is kind of sad that they swapped in a new Rei, though. I was hoping that part of 2.22's ending would stick and not be a fake-out, at least. 
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May 9, 2013 06:36
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I wonder if anything will come up in 4.0 about the implication of the old Rei being in the SDAT player.
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May 9, 2013 07:11
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That would be  as gently caress even for this series if they had old Rei in the SDAT player.On that note, what the hell is with the acid-trip sequence when Shinji and Kaworu play piano together?  e: I kind of feel like Rebuild, so far, could be read as a metaphor for the stages of a man's love life, but I'm not good enough at analysis to really prove that assertion. 1.11 is a metaphor for an early-childhood crush (a boy being attracted to his babysitter or teacher, basically). 2.22 is a metaphor for a first relationship (say, in high school or so) where the man goes way overboard in trying to prove himself to her, at the expense of every other aspect of his life. 3.33, following, is the first adult relationship (say, a college fling), where he finally finds someone who understands him perfectly and vice versa, and who helps him understand himself and his previous actions better, but they're torn apart by circumstance. I kind of wonder where 4.0 is going to take this. SALT CURES HAM fucked around with this message at 07:30 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 07:14
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WickedIcon posted:That would be ...Bonding? I thought it was a pretty straightforward scene, really.
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May 9, 2013 07:22
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Yeah, the scene more or less makes sense, but why all the  color changing and sheet music pictures and the weirdly animated horse?
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May 9, 2013 07:24
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WickedIcon posted:Yeah, the scene more or less makes sense, but why all the I don't think it's meant to be taken literally.
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May 9, 2013 07:53
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So, I had a thought watching the movie... What if Shinji was a clone ? It would explain the 14 years time lapse : Nerv was "growing" a new Shinji in the meantime. It would also explain why they were calling him "Specimen" on Wille, and why he had a serial number (BM-03). The scenario kind of writes itself from Rebuild 2 : Shinji got tangified inside Unit-01, and instead of being restored like in the anime, they found out they could only extract his soul (you know those red balls you see in EoE ?). So Nerv left him inside Eva-01 for the time being, and Eva-01 got sealed away until they could host Shinji's soul inside a body. Then Wille got created during that time. And, once the clone was ready, Wille "stole" it, along with Eva-01 and Shinji's soul, to preemptively prevent Gendo from using Shinji to trigger 4th impact. This begins the events of Rebuild 3. Or maybe I'm just overthinking Neon Genesis Evangelion. Shinji was just untangified instead, like in the anime, and 14 years is just a meta reference to how many years passed between the anime and the rebuilds. Also because, sure why not 14 years ?
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May 9, 2013 07:53
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bof_man posted:So, I had a thought watching the movie... I...that's...dude...  It makes too much sense.
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May 9, 2013 07:56
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I don't know, I think they're referring to him as a specimen simply because they don't see him as human anymore, considering that he basically became a quasi-god while trying to save Rei. Also, I never understood why the gently caress Sakura is alive but Toji, Kensuke, and Hikari aren't. Then again, by that extension anyone in the vicinity of Eva Unit 01 should have been wiped out completely, including the Nerv staff and Gendo.
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May 9, 2013 08:05
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Undead Unicorn posted:He isn't running away from his problems though, he's being just like her and confronting them head on. Just like her his agency makes things worse because like her he doesn't think through his actions. He's not really confronting his problems head on though. He doesn't want to face the responsibility for what he inadvertently did so he desperately and blindly casts about, first to Rei to try to justify his actions as having some sliver of a positive outcome. When even that tenuous prop is removed he grasps on to the first thing that comes along, a plan that he doesn't understand at all, something which will literally magically make his problems go away. When the person who told him to enact the plan suddenly tells him to back off he completely ignores him. At the end he's catatonic, completely divorced from reality. His running away has taken a different form then in EoE, but I think categorizing his actions as reckless misses the mark. He doesn't take actions without thinking because he's too self confident or hubristic, it's because thinking about his actions would mean thinking about what's motivating his actions and that would be too painful. So he runs away by not thinking.
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May 9, 2013 08:36
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cafel posted:it's because thinking about his actions would mean thinking about what's motivating his actions and that would be too painful. So he runs away by not thinking. He avoids and escape, the sdat listening is another example. For those in question, this is Annos master troll/point. Shinji represents the man child/otaku/serial escaper who watchs anime rather than engauge with reality. Its why a lot of people hate him.
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May 9, 2013 08:48
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Foul Ole Ron posted:Shinji represents the man child/otaku/serial escaper who watchs anime rather than engauge with reality. Its why a lot of people hate him. I won't dispute the former point, but I really don't think that's why people hate him. They hate him because he's the protagonist of the show and yet completely non-functional for a good chunk of it. It's like if ZZ Gundam continued with Kamille as the protagonist after Zeta's ending; people would have hated that just as much. I think Rebuild's approach to the character is a lot better, because while he's still flawed, he's at least portrayed like a human being and not a caricature.
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May 9, 2013 08:54
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