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CLAM DOWN posted:Why is that so unbelievable? I play games so I and my buddies and guild members can have fun. If that fun is coming from repeated wipes and people are still having fun, then yup, I'm 100% okay with that. Man, that sounds like a guild trying to progress through difficult content as they work together towards a goal.
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May 8, 2013 18:54
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^^^^ That's one way of interpreting it, there are multiple ways you know!sTickHead posted:I want to be in your Wildstar guild if you lead one. It's all about the fun. Assuming the game doesn't turn out as poo poo, which looking at every other modern MMO it's a very real possibility, I will bring Starfleet Dental into this game in some form. You would be most welcome!
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May 8, 2013 18:55
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Flarestar posted:That's the point, yes, and it does that well. And I'm not saying they "punish" the player for selecting a lower difficulty. They simply provide less reward. New endings unlock on higher difficulties, more achievements are available, missions and tasks have higher rewards associated, scores are higher, etc. And you virtually never see player complaints about that. Then you go to MMORPGs, where the pattern of player behavior/demand reverses, in a lot of cases. Not everyone, there's plenty of people that support standard risk/effort vs. reward dynamics. But it's become more and more common. You only seem to be comparing mmorpgs to multiplayer rpgs(two practically identical areas)... if you include other genres you'll find that rewards and resources frequently become weaker and more scarce as difficulty increases. Amazing that people who enjoy a challenge actually enjoy a challenge. EDIT: my point is, the difficulty of high difficulty content can(and should) be its primary appeal. There is no reason that doing 16 hours of appropriately leveled raid content needs to yield better rewards than 16 hours of appropriately leveled bear rear end questing. Reicere fucked around with this message at 19:10 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 19:02
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CLAM DOWN posted:^^^^ That's one way of interpreting it, there are multiple ways you know! I think we're all arguing the same point?
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May 8, 2013 19:02
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Flarestar posted:I'm sorry, so it's elitist now to expect someone to be able to actually do what they joined the group to do? How the gently caress does that even make sense? Sorry, if you're literally unable to pull your weight in a group as defined by the demands of that dungeon/quest/encounter/whatever vs the group composition, it doesn't make me elitist to have a problem with that. It just means that you're dead weight and loving up the group for 4-5 other people. If the group is succeeding at whatever that group's condition for success is, obviously you're pulling the amount of weight necessary. If it's not, there's a problem there. The thing is, this is what keeps a lot of people out of group content in MMOs, especially from trying out the more challenging content. While there are some people who have been playing since Everquest and this is all old hat, or math enthusiasts who really get into the stats and maximizing their character's numbers or combat pros who are quickly able to evaluate skills and determine how to use them for the best advantage in fighting, there are others who are playing an MMO for the first time or who play solely for fun and don't find math or studying up on different combos of pushing buttons to see which one is best to be the fun part of playing so when you read things like this frequently it's easy to be afraid that you ARE going to be the person who isn't doing their job. I'm always really nervous about starting up with group content in any new MMO I try because I am afraid that I am going to be that person simply because I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing differently. I like pretending to be a wizard or a hunter or whatever, I don't like crunching numbers or studying strategy or delving into combinations of skills. I don't have any friends that play MMOs so I am going into every game basically alone and having to pug into group content and it's really daunting to me, because basically I'm afraid I'm going to get into a group with someone like you who will get angry when I don't immediately know how to do a group encounter I've never done before. Even if you try to explain the encounter to me, it's possible I might not get it right until I've had the chance to try it a couple of times. I don't want to get yelled at for that in a game where I'm supposed to be having fun, because that's not really very fun for me.
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May 8, 2013 19:03
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Lowly posted:The thing is, this is what keeps a lot of people out of group content in MMOs, especially from trying out the more challenging content. While there are some people who have been playing since Everquest and this is all old hat, or math enthusiasts who really get into the stats and maximizing their character's numbers or combat pros who are quickly able to evaluate skills and determine how to use them for the best advantage in fighting, there are others who are playing an MMO for the first time or who play solely for fun and don't find math or studying up on different combos of pushing buttons to see which one is best to be the fun part of playing so when you read things like this frequently it's easy to be afraid that you ARE going to be the person who isn't doing their job. Seriously, just play with goons (like CLAM DOWN with SFD) and this will never be the case.
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May 8, 2013 19:05
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Doh004 posted:I think we're all arguing the same point? I have no idea anymore. We need some new info or videos about this game to come out, this thread is giving me a headache.
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May 8, 2013 19:05
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Reicere posted:You only seem to be comparing mmorpgs to multiplayer rpgs(two practically identical areas)... if you include other genres you'll find that rewards and resources frequently become weaker and more scarce as difficulty increases. Nope, comparing it to pretty much every genre. Resources provided decrease, yes, whether that's unit unlocks or credits or whatever mechanism the game uses to pace difficulty. That's part of the difficulty rating. The reward for completion typically does not, it increases. The reason things are designed that way goes back to, as I mentioned before, basic psychology. Specifically, cognitive dissonance as it relates to effort justification, and the overjustification effect. They're extremely relevant to game pacing and design. In a nutshell, people inherently value reward more based on the effort needed to achieve the reward, provided that a) the effort isn't overly onerous in comparison to the reward, and b) the reward isn't expected, and particularly when the reward is not given simply for completion of whatever task is in question, regardless of the participant's performance. It's why as much as the token system for raid loot is nice to avoid having to deal with trash drops, it turns loot from something exciting into a game of counting tokens until the next item purchase. It's also why toning down content to the point where requires low or minimal effort to complete it doesn't tend to engage player interest for an extended period of time. All of that is subjective, to some extent. What's considered onerous varies player to player, for instance. And that's where the difficulty in tuning and pacing an MMORPG comes in, and why debates like this very one happen on such a frequent basis. It's also why I'm personally a fan of MMOs being designed for a specific audience instead of trying to be a catch-all. As much as I'm conflicting with him in this thread, I have a lot of the same reservations that Clam Down does - historically developers have failed pretty hard at balancing those factors for a wide audience, specifically because those factors are highly subjective. It's a lot easier to target a specific crowd and nail the game spot on, creating a devoted, rabid fanbase, than it is to try to keep what is effectively five different breeds of player satisfied all at the same time.
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May 8, 2013 19:12
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a lovely poster posted:Why is the top place on a leaderboard, or cosmetic items associated with achievements, not enough to establish that there is a "challenge". Why does completing the content in of itself have to be a challenge? I don't see how this is preferable in the age of wanting to maximize the exposure your customers get to content developers are getting paid to make. Are you seriously questioning why people might want the gameplay in a game they are playing to be challenging? If I didn't I would just use Skype and save the time and money. Time invested is a silly, ridiculous metric and if you have to have a loot system you would be better served gating it behind something actually difficult, rather than time consuming
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May 8, 2013 19:17
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Flarestar posted:Basic psychology. What an incredibly smug non-answer. Do you think I'm unaware of how human psychological reward pathways work? If anything, the past ten years have shown that I'm the correct one. We've seen companies be blown away by how much cosmetic poo poo they could sell. This ran counter to the "common sense" of the early 2000s. The bottom line is people value status symbols that seperate themselves from the crowd, and there is no reason why those status symbols have to come attached with stats that make you more powerful and there's no reason that we need to make simply completing content reward everyone equally. Why can't the content be able to be experienced by everyone and the higher status rewards, like titles or some armor for your gryphon or whatever you're riding. Why are players that are so "good" at MMOs so intent on making sure that they are rewarded with in game power for how they play the game? DonkeyHotay posted:Are you seriously questioning why people might want the gameplay in a game they are playing to be challenging? If I didn't I would just use Skype and save the time and money. Time invested is a silly, ridiculous metric and if you have to have a loot system you would be better served gating it behind something actually difficult, rather than time consuming I'm not saying remove challenge, I'm saying remove challenge as a barrier to experiencing content and leave it as something OPTIONAL that rewards the player with cosmetic items as opposed to items that make them more powerful. This also has a neat side effect of making the "gear treadmill" effect much less present.
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May 8, 2013 19:19
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Flarestar posted:Not specifically. As long as the content is providing equivalent reward for equivalent challenge. That goes for all content, not just solo vs. raid. This is where you confuse me. You've stated earlier that if the 40 man raids are designed with proper imagination that had all 40 people equally involved then the challenge would be unmatched to smaller group content. So with that in mind how could a 10 man raid for example ever be equally challenging to a properly designed 40 man? So in essence 40 man raiding would always be the only way to achieve the best gear in the game. If you feel they can both be equally challenging and offer the same rewards what ideas do you have that could accomplish that? I know we're very opposed on this issue, but in a perfect world I would love all the groups to get exactly what they want. My problem is that in my experience the only way to make the 40 man raiders happy is to make sure everybody else is unhappy.
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May 8, 2013 19:27
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a lovely poster posted:What an incredibly smug non-answer. Do you think I'm unaware of how human psychological reward pathways work? If anything, the past ten years have shown that I'm the correct one. We've seen companies be blown away by how much cosmetic poo poo they could sell. This ran counter to the "common sense" of the early 2000s. The bottom line is people value status symbols that seperate themselves from the crowd, and there is no reason why those status symbols have to come attached with stats that make you more powerful and there's no reason that we need to make simply completing content reward everyone equally. Why can't the content be able to be experienced by everyone and the higher status rewards, like titles or some armor for your gryphon or whatever you're riding. Why are players that are so "good" at MMOs so intent on making sure that they are rewarded with in game power for how they play the game? It was an incredibly short answer to an incredibly silly question. And yes, based on that question, I absolutely do think you're unaware of how human psychological reward pathways work. I still do, for that matter, because in this entire rambling response, you're failing to realize that while yes, people like cosmetic rewards and titles and achievement ratings, people typically like stuff that provides meaningful progression to their character's growth a whole lot more. Which is why, even though companies have started providing cosmetics and achievements and non-tangibles, they still release a bunch of content with better gear every time without fail. Seriously, I'd love to see the response to you pitching that gameplay design to literally any company out there with an even vaguely successful track record.
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May 8, 2013 19:29
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a lovely poster posted:What an incredibly smug non-answer. Do you think I'm unaware of how human psychological reward pathways work? If anything, the past ten years have shown that I'm the correct one. We've seen companies be blown away by how much cosmetic poo poo they could sell. This ran counter to the "common sense" of the early 2000s. The bottom line is people value status symbols that seperate themselves from the crowd, and there is no reason why those status symbols have to come attached with stats that make you more powerful and there's no reason that we need to make simply completing content reward everyone equally. Why can't the content be able to be experienced by everyone and the higher status rewards, like titles or some armor for your gryphon or whatever you're riding. Why are players that are so "good" at MMOs so intent on making sure that they are rewarded with in game power for how they play the game?
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May 8, 2013 19:31
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I never really enjoyed TF2 until I got my +1 flamethrower.
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May 8, 2013 19:31
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Doh004 posted:Seriously, just play with goons (like CLAM DOWN with SFD) and this will never be the case. Whenever this game comes out, I will!
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May 8, 2013 19:31
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I wish I could wear an actual bear rear end in an MMO. I bet the raiders would all be jealous of me then.
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May 8, 2013 19:32
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Rylek posted:This is where you confuse me. You've stated earlier that if the 40 man raids are designed with proper imagination that had all 40 people equally involved then the challenge would be unmatched to smaller group content. I should probably clarify. You can't make a 10 man version of a 40 man raid and have them have the same difficulty, unless your 40/25/whatever larger size raid is fairly uninspired from a design standpoint to start with. It comes back to what I was talking about earlier regarding treating a raid force as a composite of players vs. a single entity. If you do the latter, it sharply limits the design concepts you can use, but it allows scaling. If you do the former, it opens up all sorts of design concepts, but it makes scaling near impossible due to reliance on the number of roles those design concepts can require. To fix that, you don't make them the same encounter, basically. That's what Blizzard did in a limited fashion by implementing the 10 man raids - the encounter variables were altered somewhat, some of the abilities changed or were removed, damage output and hp were scaled, etc. The problem is that their 25 man encounters weren't particularly hard/complex and didn't really explore capabilities to start with specifically because they were intended to be capable of scaling down to 10 man raids. I understand they've resolved that situation to an extent with Pandaland, but I haven't experienced that personally. It involves more development time, and there's no real way around that. You can create automated scaling, but doing it that way inherently limits what you're doing with the larger versions - you simply can't use certain mechanics and a lot of concepts because there aren't enough people present to execute/handle them. Assuming you accept the necessity of doing that though, you can create 10 man raids that are just as challenging as a 40 man raid - it just won't be the same encounter. Goes back to what I was saying about content designed specifically for 10 man. Karazhan was a good example - lot of really solid encounters in there that involved the group as a whole, and it did that precisely because it was designed for 10 players. And, development bandwidth allowing, I don't actually see a problem with that. What I'd really like to see is companies designing toolkits to allow modular development at a professional level, and then make a point of finding the players that actually take an interest in the game's lore and have the technical/analytical capability for designing encounters well. Neverwinter tried to do something like that with the Foundry, but it's a pretty lackluster implementation for enterprise level development. However, something like it could be used as a good foundation block for identifying talent. Then take those players, give them an enhanced version, and let them go. Once they're finished with the design and concepts, have an internal team review and balance. It would massively cut the development time necessary for new content, and could theoretically be extended beyond raid/group encounters and into solo questlines.
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May 8, 2013 19:44
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Doh004 posted:So you're okay to run a dungeon (in say GW2) with someone who's atrocious and constantly causes the group to wipe, solely because he's "having fun"? 
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May 8, 2013 20:49
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Jackard posted:Yea this is pretty much SFD in a nutshell. If I can't get my buddies (non goons) to play Wildstar with me, which it doesn't look like it, I'd definitely like to join up with you guys as long as I haven't pissed of Arus too much by being obtuse about MMO's.
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May 8, 2013 20:54
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Doh004 posted:pissed of Arus too much by being obtuse about MMO's. Again, welcome to SFD.
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May 8, 2013 21:01
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CLAM DOWN posted:I wish I could wear an actual bear rear end in an MMO. I bet the raiders would all be jealous of me then. Custom Equipment. That's what Wildstar needs. Let me make my own gear.
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May 8, 2013 21:03
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quote:We have been taking Beta Registrations for some time now, and we are going to be inviting a lot of people to come play WildStar for one weekend only in our first Stress Test. In fact, some of the invites will have already gone out by the time this article is published (check those spam filters!). edit: quote:Editor's Note: Originally this article stated that we were hosting a stress test this weekend. This is not the case, and we apologize for the inconvenience. We will keep you updated on the exact timing of our stress test in the coming days, and apologize for any confusion. Phoix fucked around with this message at 21:34 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 21:20
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Still nothing 
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May 8, 2013 21:32
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Doh004 posted:Still nothing They just added this.  quote:Editor's Note: Originally this article stated that we were hosting a stress test this weekend. This is not the case, and we apologize for the inconvenience. We will keep you updated on the exact timing of our stress test in the coming days, and apologize for any confusion.
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May 8, 2013 21:33
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CLAM DOWN posted:Why is that so unbelievable? I play games so I and my buddies and guild members can have fun. If that fun is coming from repeated wipes and people are still having fun, then yup, I'm 100% okay with that. How the gently caress is repeating the same content over and over again because of one person fun? Yes, deaths and wipes can be funny and/or hilarious. But not when it happens too often.
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May 8, 2013 21:34
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Flumbooze posted:Yes, deaths and wipes can be funny and/or hilarious. But not when it happens too often. I think what CLAM DOWN is trying to emphasize is that Fun takes precedence over Progress. If you're having fun while not progressing then who cares? And when it stops being fun, you cam stop doing whatever it is you're doing. If your idea of Fun is Progressing then definitely work with likeminded people to Progress and have Fun. If you're trying to progress by doing something you're not having fun doing then there's a problem.
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May 8, 2013 21:48
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Flumbooze posted:How the gently caress is repeating the same content over and over again because of one person fun? Yes, deaths and wipes can be funny and/or hilarious. But not when it happens too often. Not everyone has the same idea of fun as you, don't be so shocked that people can play an MMO with friends in a super light-hearted way and not care about dying or wiping repeatedly.
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May 8, 2013 21:58
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Flumbooze posted:How the gently caress is repeating the same content over and over again because of one person fun? 
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May 8, 2013 22:06
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a lovely poster posted:Why can't the content be able to be experienced by everyone and the higher status rewards, like titles or some armor for your gryphon or whatever you're riding. Why are players that are so "good" at MMOs so intent on making sure that they are rewarded with in game power for how they play the game? As someone who was a serious WoW raider back in the day, I would be perfectly satisfied with special titles, costume pieces, mounts, or whatever as stat-less rewards for completing certain content challenges. I didn't raid for the gear. However, history shows that this doesn't seem to be an acceptable option for many "casual" players. Just look at WoW -- any time someone suggests that it would be nice to keep, say, the Rusted Protodrake as strictly a reward for completing certain Ulduar challenges back in the day, they're accused of being an elitist jerk who hates fun. I mean hey, casual folks should have protodrakes too, but even just having a COLOR as a status symbol causes angry faces. I have no problem with more casual or very time-limited players having lots of great content and special non-stat prestige items that I will never get. (Like the old version of "The Insane" title in WoW, which required a buttload of rep grinding that I have no patience for or interest in.) Based on the posts here and in other places, I don't think the reverse is true.
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May 8, 2013 22:13
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i am tim! posted:I think what CLAM DOWN is trying to emphasize is that Fun takes precedence over Progress. If you're having fun while not progressing then who cares? And when it stops being fun, you cam stop doing whatever it is you're doing. Progressing isn't nessecarily fun, but staying at the some spot the whole time definitely isn't either. I guess you need to have both to have a good experience? The thing is, if it stops being fun you'll never progress. CLAM DOWN posted:Not everyone has the same idea of fun as you, don't be so shocked that people can play an MMO with friends in a super light-hearted way and not care about dying or wiping repeatedly. I don't mind people dying or wiping repeatedly, but I do mind that one person stops the whole group of advancing to new content. No matter how funny his death is, it becomes boring after you've seen it a million times. I'm not saying that when I don't progress I don't have fun, but I get easily bored if I have to do the same thing over and over again, expecting it to change. That's insanity. (Really bad Far Cry 3 reference there...)
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May 8, 2013 22:16
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Jackard posted:What did you think raiding was? Brilliant  Also, I think the comments about the bad guy in the group are a bit hyperbolic. If the person is truly a slow learner and takes more attempts than the usual to get something right, it's usually no big deal for most non-pro groups. Everyone that played the 'endgame' of MMOs, outside the heroic-raiding guilds, had to deal with these guys. This is totally different than a dick head just loving around and forcing unnecessary wipes because, WTF is all fun and giggles.
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May 8, 2013 22:18
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Flumbooze posted:I don't mind people dying or wiping repeatedly, but I do mind that one person stops the whole group of advancing to new content. No matter how funny his death is, it becomes boring after you've seen it a million times. I'm not saying that when I don't progress I don't have fun, but I get easily bored if I have to do the same thing over and over again, expecting it to change. That's insanity. (Really bad Far Cry 3 reference there...) And not everyone thinks the same as you. You're not the ultimate authority on what is fun in an MMO or not.
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May 8, 2013 22:20
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CLAM DOWN posted:And not everyone thinks the same as you. You're not the ultimate authority on what is fun in an MMO or not. OK now that you've established that you don't care at all about beating content why do you care at all if it is difficult or not?
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May 8, 2013 22:23
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ilikelettuce posted:Brilliant If he's just a slow learner and wants to improve, props to the guy. But if he's a lazy bastard I couldn't care less about him. CLAM DOWN posted:And not everyone thinks the same as you. You're not the ultimate authority on what is fun in an MMO or not. Right, but isn't that the point of this whole discussion? Telling each other what we want, while listening to others? I know I'm not the ultimate authority, but I never even said that. However, I still doubt that people like repeating the same conte- Oh, wait, Call of Duty is quite succesfull. Oh well, no matter how much we argue about this it will all depend on Carbine. I'm looking forward to the beta. Spider2414 fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 8, 2013 |
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May 8, 2013 22:23
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Not all filthy raiders are of the competitive type, a good portion of us like to raid with friends and have fun  It's really just a larger dungeon, we aren't out to put world firsts on our resume. I just think we can all agree that the best raiding gear shouldn't come from pvp, the best pvp gear shouldn't come from raiding, and cosmetic options should be available to all.It IS kind of confusing to me that Wildstar is concentrating on raiding, since really the only games doing it are WoW and Rift. It's kind of a niche thing, but maybe their economic research says that raiders pay more money and are easier to keep.
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May 8, 2013 22:36
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DonkeyHotay posted:OK now that you've established that you don't care at all about beating content why do you care at all if it is difficult or not? When did I ever mention anything at all about difficulty  Did you mean to quote someone else?
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May 8, 2013 22:44
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Eltoasto posted:It IS kind of confusing to me that Wildstar is concentrating on raiding, since really the only games doing it are WoW and Rift. It's kind of a niche thing, but maybe their economic research says that raiders pay more money and are easier to keep. I think they're trying to nab the players that liked the old style of raiding since no mmo is doing that currently. I think they realize they can't compete head to head with WoW/Rift on that front, so they're pushing hard to fill that niche. A lot of it is probably PR talk to appeal to that crowd to get them to come aboard.
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May 8, 2013 23:12
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I feel like I am so beyond the point where I would ever wish to tell a friend he could not come along for something fun because he was not good at the game. And 40 people is just so many drat people to herd for something. Maybe they'll surprise us and this will be a different sort of raiding atmosphere or something.
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May 9, 2013 02:25
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My hope is that the 40-man raids turn out to be short one or two encounter raids, like vanilla WoW Onyxia or Magtheridon and Gruul in TBC. It would make cat-herding and pugging easier. That style of raid also seems more suited to the variation in abilities and epeen racing for weekly firsts Gaffney mentioned.
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May 9, 2013 03:08
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grrarg posted:My hope is that the 40-man raids turn out to be short one or two encounter raids, like vanilla WoW Onyxia or Magtheridon and Gruul in TBC. It would make cat-herding and pugging easier. That style of raid also seems more suited to the variation in abilities and epeen racing for weekly firsts Gaffney mentioned. I think it would be a good way to go. Also something - anything that did not mean you had to schedule the same raid with the same bosses week after week.
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May 9, 2013 03:16
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