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WickedIcon posted:I won't dispute the former point, but I really don't think that's why people hate him. They hate him because he's the protagonist of the show and yet completely non-functional for a good chunk of it. It's like if ZZ Gundam continued with Kamille as the protagonist after Zeta's ending; people would have hated that just as much. True, though by the escapisim point and a certain cycle theory, you could argue that shinji's current incarnation is one born for the death of his old ones. As it is said , shinji makes his own choices now, granted they suck, but he has to learn even when you do, you shoukd still keep making them.
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May 9, 2013 09:08
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Finally got around to watching 3.33. The shogi scene was the most incredibly jarring thing, completely at odds with the rest of the franchise. Having a conversation with Shinji and simply telling him the truth? No dream sequence or overly subtle hints? They are all living in bizarro-world.
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May 9, 2013 10:41
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Foul Ole Ron posted:Shinji represents the man child/otaku/serial escaper who watchs anime rather than engauge with reality. Its why a lot of people hate him. I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but I'm getting tired of people making this mistake. Shinji isn't a manchild. He's a child. Fourteen isn't old enough to drive a car in Japan, nevermind an apocalypse robot. Treating him as if he were Evangelion's moral focal point is absurd, and in fact that absurdity is a big part of the show's actual message. Evangelion's goal wasn't to destroy the audience of super robot shows; it was to destroy the genre itself. To achieve that it targets the people who put a fourteen-year-old kid into a machine that ends the world in the first place: Gendo is the obvious example but he's more of a worst case scenario, a kind of moral black hole that the other adults fall towards at varying speeds. The real manchild in Evangelion (although the gender's wrong) is Misato, who literally spends the majority of the original series and the first half of Rebuild watching Shinji on a television screen, making recklessly dangerous plans that he and the other Children have to make real and vicariously reveling in his destruction of the Angels. She's not a passive audience, though; she's a director. She's almost literally making a super robot show about a young boy who overcomes all the adversity she couldn't in her own life. The trouble is that Evangelion doesn't exist in a convenient universe where children are miniature adults* and as a result her insistence backfires constantly; no one is willing to raise Shinji, no one serves as an adequate role model, no one will explain anything to him. Misato's sympathetic despite her complexes because she's the only one who even tries. When you peg Shinji as the reason it all went wrong, as morally deficient ("serial escaper otaku manchild") instead of just immature, you are committing the same error she is. This is not the Hero's Journey. Nor is Shinji going to bootstrap himself into healthy, functional adulthood unassisted. Depression is a mental illness, not a moral failing. "I mustn't run away" is not Shinji achieving understanding and then throwing it away; it's proof that even before the first episode, Shinji was already caught in the see-saw pattern of desperately avoiding risk, suffering till he couldn't stand it any more, and then taking risks and suffering more. You can't learn from your mistakes when everything you do has exclusive and disproportionate negative feedback. Rebuild is not a traditional tragedy -- that is to say, it's not a story about a protagonist bringing about his own downfall, where his flaws exist to instruct the audience on correct behavior. It's a story about a handful of children struggling to find or create some kind of order when every adult in their lives has gone insane. That they fail, frankly, just isn't instructive. That they might eventually succeed, and how: that's interesting, and that's how we'll know what Anno's trying to say. * Well okay the ironic thing here is that in 3.33 Asuka and Mari are miniature adults. So adults who still understand the frustration and impotence of being a child are the ones close enough to Shinji to maybe help him. Surprise! 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 12:26 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 11:31
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Pretty sure that Misato was cheerleading Shinji just to destroy the Angel he was giving the king of all rear end-beatings to before poo poo started hitting the fan and Ritsuko told her it was the End of the World (see the "Oh, gently caress!" face Misato makes while Ritsuko says that). So her acting differently in part 3 isn't a sudden switch or anything, because she didn't really know what Shinji was doing at the time, either.
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May 9, 2013 12:40
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Wade Wilson posted:Pretty sure that Misato was cheerleading Shinji just to destroy the Angel he was giving the king of all rear end-beatings to before poo poo started hitting the fan and Ritsuko told her it was the End of the World (see the "Oh, gently caress!" face Misato makes while Ritsuko says that). Well, no, it's not either actually. She explicitly cheers for Shinji to pursue his own wish (save Ayanami, to hell with everything else); like Shinji she didn't know what was actually going to happen when she said that, but that still makes her behavior in 3.33 a hypocritical reversal; more than anyone else she should be the one to empathize with him. EDIT: Although it's not out of character. After all, Shinji just did the same thing her father did in Second Impact, and Misato isn't exactly rational or of one mind about him either. Also, something fun I noticed while rewatching that scene for reference. Here is the spear that impales Unit-01 in the post-credits scene in 2.22 (but before the preview): http://i.imgur.com/4Yibn8J.png And here's the first part of the device Asuka uses to kickstart the Wunder: 3.33 SPOILERS They aren't quite identical as far as I can tell, but I do wonder if that spear is just a spear. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 13:39 on May 9, 2013 |
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May 9, 2013 12:50
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Given how these movies are increasingly divergent (from the original, from previews, and I would argue also between the end of 2.2 and the descriptions/flashbacks to those same events in 3.3) I'm starting to wonder if it's not just cyclical, but each movie is from a later iteration from the previous. It would give more meaning to the version number style to the title numbers, too.
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May 9, 2013 17:56
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Well, no, it's not either actually. She explicitly cheers for Shinji to pursue his own wish (save Ayanami, to hell with everything else); like Shinji she didn't know what was actually going to happen when she said that, but that still makes her behavior in 3.33 a hypocritical reversal; more than anyone else she should be the one to empathize with him. I had noticed that with the spear too. I am wondering if it isn't something like a key: you can use it to activate or deactivate an Eva/God mode. I am wondering if that wasn't suppose to be the second spear that was missing at the end of 3 and if it was, it makes sense that it would be needed for the plan Kaworu had.
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May 9, 2013 22:53
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Terminal Entropy posted:I had noticed that with the spear too. I am wondering if it isn't something like a key: you can use it to activate or deactivate an Eva/God mode. I am wondering if that wasn't suppose to be the second spear that was missing at the end of 3 and if it was, it makes sense that it would be needed for the plan Kaworu had. Hm. Indeed. Maybe use Longinus to Awaken Unit 13, and Cassius to keep it under control or subdue it before it became actively harmful.
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May 9, 2013 23:29
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I don't think he third impact could have ever been prevented by any other means than the deus ex machina of Kaworu's spear. Gendo and Co. took into account all of Shinji's vices and designed the most effective method to manipulate Shinji into causing the third impact. No one else saw the strings that had them dancing like marionettes. But once the third impact hit the plan laid bare for all involved to see. Misato, now disillusioned to the truth of the puppeteers has a new goal to replace her original one: prevent the apocalypse, regardless of what that means. I have to fight NERV? So be it. I have to destroy the Eva's? So be it. But when it comes to preventing another disaster, Misato knows that Shinji is the key to the doors of death, but she cannot help but feel affection for him. That's why she never kills Shinji and instead tries to keep him as a prisoner. My point is that Misato's drastic change is a result of her disillusionment and her drive to take the fate of the world into her own hands. Before, her only reason to live was to fight the Angels, so when there were no Angels Misato transformed into a carefree drunkard, which was her way of enjoying life.
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May 10, 2013 00:07
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ViggyNash posted:My point is that Misato's drastic change is a result of her disillusionment and her drive to take the fate of the world into her own hands. Before, her only reason to live was to fight the Angels, so when there were no Angels Misato transformed into a carefree drunkard, which was her way of enjoying life. I'm interested to see whether becoming the captain of the Wunder is ultimately a good thing for her (taking on her demons personally instead of forcing children to do it for her) or just the setup for a fall (following her obsession to its extreme conclusion.)
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May 10, 2013 00:14
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm interested to see whether becoming the captain of the Wunder is ultimately a good thing for her (taking on her demons personally instead of forcing children to do it for her) or just the setup for a fall (following her obsession to its extreme conclusion.) I'm thinking the latter, but that's just because I like the visual of Misato as Captain Ahab fighting giant monsters from a flying ship.
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May 10, 2013 00:46
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I think the only way we'll see a happy ending is if instrumentality does happen, the world and it's survivors in 3.33 are in a pretty lovely place. I fully expect an EoE style 2014 cgi acid trip climax for the last movie. It would be highly ironic and plausible for it to be released in 2014 as well.
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May 10, 2013 01:07
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As far as ending speculation, I will say that if Anno decides to troll us I would love for him to do so by making 4.0 almost identical to 1.11, with just enough hints dropped in to basically confirm the 'Rebuild-as-sequel' speculation.
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May 10, 2013 01:17
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Anybody else see this info graphic about the SDAT player and the movie timings? http://minus.com/l6hhbed7p9oZK Kind of curious to see if you apply the same logic to 2 or 1 if you get similar insightful results. OR, and this is really  , cross-reference the timings/movies?
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May 10, 2013 06:50
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Ok the rest of the graphic is definitely neat but the timestamp for Kaworu is just fuckin amazing. So awesome.WickedIcon posted:On that note, what the hell is with the acid-trip sequence when Shinji and Kaworu play piano together? Spiritus Nox posted:...Bonding? I thought it was a pretty straightforward scene, really. Yeah I actually thought this scene, against all odds, was kind of phenomenal. I did not expect myself to like it, and I did. It was also a really enjoyable remake/reboot/callback/whatever/rebuild of Shinji and Asuka's DDR episode. Serious Frolicking posted:Finally got around to watching 3.33. The shogi scene was the most incredibly jarring thing, completely at odds with the rest of the franchise. Having a conversation with Shinji and simply telling him the truth? No dream sequence or overly subtle hints? They are all living in bizarro-world. I thought this was a dope move (narrative-wise). Plus he could've totally been doing it at Gendo's manipulative behest. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but I'm getting tired of people making this mistake. THANK YOU, I have been meaning to say this. He's a loving lonely 14 year old kid who is stunted by Japanese standards, and when (subconsciously) measuring the actions that follow from this personality by the rule of our childhood, it's easy to forget what it might be like to be raised in a country with Japan's depression rate, molestation rate, rape rate, suicide rate, birth rate, mom-giving-you-a-handjob-for-doing-your-homework rate, ...So I'd say he's doing a pretty decent job of not going completely loving insane piloting absurd robot creature things that smell like your mom and having to fight incomprehensible lovecraftian nightmares constructed of out pure terror while going through loving puberty Not to mention he is a nice, shy dude, who isn't even remotely interested in violence the way we're nearly programmed to when we think OH poo poo IF I GOT TO RIDE A GOD ROBOT AND KILL ALIENS AT 14 I WOULD BE FUCKIN ALL OVER THIS poo poo, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS DUMB PUSSY, JUST PUT ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER FOR CHRIST'S SAKE which is how I reacted the first 3 times I watched Eva in college Which says something about watching giant robo shows. And criticizing other human beings in general.
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May 10, 2013 10:12
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Anyway I almost indulged myself in a big write-up responding directly to some of the more extreme judgments and criticisms of the characterization of Shinji and Misato and others, but I'll actually let a meta-observation do more of the talking for me. And for the record if it sounds like I'm yelling at anyone, I'm really just excited and also kinda just having fun with strawmen, so no offense. My opinion is that Anno is honestly doing an amazing job of painting three dimensional characters with conflicting, confusing, hypocritical facets that are utterly and accurately human, and not random or haphazard in a way that a lot of criticism ultimately implies (in a certain sense; I am not saying that's actually what anyone intends to say). And it's kind of a joy to see this thread swing and wrestle the pendulum back and forth from opposite ends of the spectrum until it aggregates and settles into a measured understanding that they are all acting in character and they are frustrating and thought provoking in a way that, well, nearly the rest of anime characters do not really come close to. I think that's beautiful. I will say quickly though that I think Misato's overall grim demeanor, her affected indifference and harshness towards Shinji, her unnecessary presence at Shinji's debrief, her inability to activate the DSS choker, and her characterization as a whole is completely and utterly consistent with someone who's had to spend the last 14 years questioning everything she's done leading up to and during Third Impact while continually steeling herself to handle the battle for survival at hand. Without going too much further into the nitty gritty details of this moment or facial expression or that... it just makes perfect sense to me. And I think it's great art. And great art can't be reduced so easily into the kind of digestible one or two dimensional morsels that I think your average anime and videogame fan is accustomed to. Anime often reduces the world into stylized sprites and tropes the same way videogames model real life with strict and simple systems, and I think Anno does a fantastic job of challenging that and dashing it. I think it's why he's overcharacterized as a "troll," when really I think he's at worst mischievous and satiric and at best playful with his self-awareness and knowledge of the industry and the context of Eva as a cultural phenomenon. Anyway yeah Eva deconstructs anime and giant robos pretty much as well as Watchmen does men in tights. <3
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May 10, 2013 10:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but I'm getting tired of people making this mistake. Nah your right its not Shinji that represents the man child, he just acts as he is. Its the anime fans who are said manchildren, hence qhat anno is go I ng for.
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May 10, 2013 15:27
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yellowjournalism posted:Anyway I almost indulged myself in a big write-up responding directly to some of the more extreme judgments and criticisms of the characterization of Shinji and Misato and others, but I'll actually let a meta-observation do more of the talking for me. And for the record if it sounds like I'm yelling at anyone, I'm really just excited and also kinda just having fun with strawmen, so no offense. I think part of the reason these characters are so captivating is how debatable everyone's moral integrity is by the end of the story, and that's why people have these wildly different opinions on individual characters that are all well thought out and reasonable. Some say Evangelion wasn't all that original and that it did nothing revolutionary for the industry. And yet, I've yet to watch a single other piece of animated fiction that makes all of its main cast so fundamentally hosed up without making them cartoonishly unrealistic. Rei and Kaworu are arguable exceptions, but both are alien pod people and are ironically some of the most interesting ones anyway. The characters go from relatable to reprehensible in ways that are both internally consistent and understandable. There is a lot about Evangelion that you can say is deliberately obscure bullshit, but by the end of the series everything that everyone does should make enough sense* even if the setting elements are still unclear. That it does this while simultaneously making a show with fantastic giant robot action and giving a gigantic middle finger to traditional giant robot escapist narratives is the cherry on top, really. The heart of Evangelion is in its characters, and they are why the show continues to be strong to this day. * edit: EoE is its own can of worms, so many years after watching the movie I'm still not entirely sure what to make of Shinji's resolution when put right next to the last scene with Asuka. GimmickMan fucked around with this message at 04:22 on May 11, 2013 |
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May 11, 2013 04:18
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Has anyone seen the Shick/Evangelion ad campaign? It came up on a youtube ad, and I laughed quite a lot. http://www.alafista.com/2012/04/23/schick-x-evangelion-gendou-gets-a-clean-shave/ Sorry to interrupt the serious and interesting analysis. I feel everyone deserves to see gleeful shaving Gendo, though.
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May 11, 2013 07:23
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Wittgen posted:Has anyone seen the Shick/Evangelion ad campaign? It came up on a youtube ad, and I laughed quite a lot. http://www.alafista.com/2012/04/23/schick-x-evangelion-gendou-gets-a-clean-shave/ That was loving amazing I swear to god even if Anno might not be that involved with the sprawling Eva marketing campaign (I have no idea if he is, and ultimately his vibe trickles down into his staff anyway), he checks off on these ads because they are HILARIOUS LOOK AT GENDO LOOK AT ASUKA LOOK AT REI LOOK AT THAT FUCKIN RAINBOW This poo poo is doo-doo-DUMB Kaji mugging for the camera is also pretty pro. Beers all around fellas.
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May 11, 2013 08:41
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For Australians: There's an Eva art tour on in Sydney right now and Melbourne later this month: http://www.madman.com.au/eva/
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May 11, 2013 12:35
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10322-Neon-Genesis-Evangelion ~15 Years of Eva~
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May 11, 2013 13:46
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Cardboard Box A posted:http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10322-Neon-Genesis-Evangelion you can (not) get laid
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May 11, 2013 14:18
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Cardboard Box A posted:http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/10322-Neon-Genesis-Evangelion Eh. Kind of funny, but I feel like it misses the point. I mean, Shinji's utter inability to get laid/engage in healthy human interaction is kind of his whole entire thing. Shinji actually loving someone would be like Batman becoming fully comfortable with what he does and assured of his sanity - that's great and all but it's effectively ended his character.
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May 11, 2013 17:15
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Also pushing for an emotionally confused and distressed 14-year-old who is desperately seeking some sort of validation from others to actually have sex is kinda  .
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May 11, 2013 17:26
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Spiritus Nox posted:Eh. Kind of funny, but I feel like it misses the point. I mean, Shinji's utter inability to get laid/engage in healthy human interaction is kind of his whole entire thing. Shinji actually loving someone would be like Batman becoming fully comfortable with what he does and assured of his sanity - that's great and all but it's effectively ended his character. Is it suppose to be about him? I read that as the fans being shipping dolts who haven't learned in 15 years that their slash fic isn't going to happen in the show/movies.
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May 11, 2013 17:41
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I think the point is that Evangelion is one big troll. You thought Shinji would save the world? Nope. You thought Shinji would be a badass mech pilot beatin' up baddies? Nope. You thought Shinji would get laid by at least one of his female or gay buddies? Nope.
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May 11, 2013 17:55
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ViggyNash posted:I think the point is that Evangelion is one big troll. 2 of those 3 things do happen though? Multiple times actually, every time he killed an Angel he effectively saved the world as the show makes a point of showing us that nobody else has reasonable means of how to take them down (Rei gets bopped quite a few times and Asuka gets mindbroken, Nerv is inept, etc). And throughout the course of the series he does kill quite a few Angels while being a "badass mech pilot," just because he's not a hot-blooded shonen protagonist who believes screaming and friendship are the ways to victory doesn't mean he didn't do his job. Also who really cares if the 14 year old kid has sex and who it was with? That's dumb and it only hardly matters to Shinji since everyone pretty much agrees that it's just shorthand for him seeking validation/affection.
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May 11, 2013 19:26
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My post was just meant to be a lighthearted jest about the image. It was a troll in the perspective of the demographic Anno wants to criticize. Despite saving the world several times over, he also nearly annihilated it twice through reckless abandon or a refusal to listen to reason. He is not a badass pilot, he is a wimpy moron with a misguided sense of obligation. Several times he had to be criticized into doing his job because he was willing to neglect the fate of the world so he could find a dark corner to weep and complain about his vices. Lastly, while the anime morons were expecting "Shinji saves the day and gets bitches", what we got was a socially incompetent moron incapable of building, let alone keeping, a solid, healthy relationship with even a single person. The point is that what we expected was a hero figure, and what we got was entirely the opposite. Leaving aside sex, Shinji had a chance to form a friendly relationship with any of the people in the picture, but he was too focused on himself to understand them.
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May 11, 2013 20:09
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ViggyNash posted:My post was just meant to be a lighthearted jest about the image. I think it's important to point out that Asuka, Rei and Kaworu weren't really the best people to form relationships with, all things considered. Same thing with almost all of the adults in his life. They're all pretty insane people with some serious problems. I don't think it's fair to lay all the blame on Shinji and call him a moron or incompetent. Kensuke and Toji, on the other hand, were pretty good friends of Shinji's throughout the whole series. Until horrible things happened that separated them.
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May 11, 2013 20:45
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I get to watch crazy colors and some poo poo out of the mind of an insane Japanese dude, what the hell are you guys talking about?
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May 11, 2013 21:16
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SHISHKABOB posted:I think it's important to point out that Asuka, Rei and Kaworu weren't really the best people to form relationships with, all things considered. Same thing with almost all of the adults in his life. They're all pretty insane people with some serious problems. I don't think it's fair to lay all the blame on Shinji and call him a moron or incompetent. I'll agree that Asuka would be really difficult to form a relationship with since she herself is quite unstable. However, Shinji never seemed to understand that there was something inherently different and odd about Rei and never questioned it. He wanted to believe that she was a normal person and wanted her to accept him instead of the other way around. That' why he never really got to close to Rei. In Kaworu's case, Shinji was literally hand in hand with him until Shinji decided to entirely neglect their relationship by ignoring Kaworu's pleas to stop pursuing the spears, leading to the Fourth Impact. Returning to Asuka, I think he still had a chance if he'd listened to anything she said. There were plenty of times when Shinji would become needlessly apologetic and Asuka would tell him off for it, yet he would continue to do so because he either didn't want to or didn't know how to assert himself he was fine being eaten alive so long as his misguided sense of personal dignity was intact. I think if he'd ever tried to assert himself it would have helped Asuka as well.
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May 11, 2013 21:39
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Guy, does any of this seem...stupid? For me, the original NGE was a generic mecha story with a twist of Oedipus, creative design, and arbitrary Christian imagery. But what made it remarkable was Anno's mental breakdown, budget breakdown, and subsequent untraditional storytelling that followed. And then EoE and it's pure "gently caress you, Anime. gently caress you, Japan." Unintelligible at times, but the ambiguities propelled one to look deeper, to examine at symbols & character, and generally come out feeling defeated in some fashion, regardless of how you interpreted Shinji's decision about Instrumentality (Yes in the series/No in EoE). But this? These movies? Yes, they're gorgeous and present the techno-pornography of NGE (albeit without irony or self-awareness) in sweet, sweet HD. But, christ, it feels so whitewashed and smeared in the NGE marketing BS & products that followed the series completion. Worse yet, the symbolism comes faster & harder, but is more meaningless amid the glut of teeth-in-earth, spire-from-purple-crater - and then there's the pedophilia. "Curse of EVA" is so nauseating not only because wow, you sure want that one-eyed Asuka, huh Anno/Gainax, but also because the team seems to be deliberating avoiding any maturation of storytelling or an advancement of plot. How great would that have been to have had older characters, after years of conflict? Instead, we have the same poo poo, repackaged, but with cleaner textures. It's storytelling by companies, rather than authors. Maybe I'm just older now - NGE was critical to my love of anime as a teen, but also to my understanding of stories & what can be done with genre. I always ignored the other garbage - the sludge of games, manga, and what-have-you that followed NGE, as Gainax tried desperately to milk their genuinely intriguing anime for all the ephebophilic dollars they could. I could ignore it & just remember those moments of Shinji on the mental train, talking to no one but his own damaged psyche. I didn't watch much anime for a while, aside from a Steins;Gate here or Haruhi there. But these films brought me and several of my friends back, for at least a few hours. And yet, these films, to me, are gross in this very unique way. Shocking imagery? Yes. Enough to compel me to watch them, expecting the disappointment. A freshmen level of competence in narrative? Nope. I'm taking a break from anime, again, after this one.
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May 12, 2013 00:44
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Sloth Socks posted:But this? These movies? Yes, they're gorgeous and present the techno-pornography of NGE (albeit without irony or self-awareness) in sweet, sweet HD. But, christ, it feels so whitewashed and smeared in the NGE marketing BS & products that followed the series completion. Worse yet, the symbolism comes faster & harder, but is more meaningless amid the glut of teeth-in-earth, spire-from-purple-crater - and then there's the pedophilia. "Curse of EVA" is so nauseating not only because wow, you sure want that one-eyed Asuka, huh Anno/Gainax, but also because the team seems to be deliberating avoiding any maturation of storytelling or an advancement of plot. How great would that have been to have had older characters, after years of conflict? Instead, we have the same poo poo, repackaged, but with cleaner textures. It's storytelling by companies, rather than authors. That is, actually, the exact opposite of what it is. The fact that the Eva pilots are not maturing is a pretty specific commentary on the audience the film is targeting. The Evangelion fans being crazy hardcore people who hate the idea of change has been around for a while and the "curse of Eva" (as a metatextual instead of textual concept) was brought up in interviews before the series began. It's supposed to be weird and kind of gross and anyone who doesn't find the idea not weird is exactly the kind of person who the film is commenting on. Rebuild is exactly the kind of "gently caress you, anime" that you claim to want. The thing is that anime has changed since Evangelion was released (and that too is part of what Rebuild is about) and so how it is going about saying "gently caress you" is different. The concept of unchanging characters has been around since literally Eva first aired. In fact Rei's voice actress actually begged Anno to have her character get married, get older and get pregnant in the last episode of Eva just so the creepy fans would stop obsessing over how she's perfect and unchanging. The fact that the characters can't advance and can't change even as the world drastically changes around them is an intentional choice. I mean the second movie is titled You Can (Not) Advance and the third is You Can (Not) Redo. It isn't subtle about this. If you really think this has no irony or no self-awareness you're basically wrong. v  v
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:05 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 00:49
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ViggyNash posted:He is not a badass pilot, he is a wimpy moron with a misguided sense of obligation. Several times he had to be criticized into doing his job because he was willing to neglect the fate of the world so he could find a dark corner to weep and complain about his vices. Lastly, while the anime morons were expecting "Shinji saves the day and gets bitches", what we got was a socially incompetent moron incapable of building, let alone keeping, a solid, healthy relationship with even a single person. Being mentally ill does not mean someone is stupid. And its pretty arguable that at least some of Shinji's mental illness or misunderstanding about himself and the world isn't even his fault.
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May 12, 2013 01:00
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ImpAtom posted:That is, actually, the exact opposite of what it is. The fact that the Eva pilots are not maturing is a pretty specific commentary on the audience the film is targeting. The Evangelion fans being crazy hardcore people who hate the idea of change has been around for a while and the "curse of Eva" (as a metatextual instead of textual concept) was brought up in interviews before the series began. It's supposed to be weird and kind of gross and anyone who doesn't find the idea not weird is exactly the kind of person who the film is commenting on. See, I'd love it, if the text had a kind of self-awareness or had this metatextual level...but it doesn't. It's Gainax trying to have its disgusting, otaku-attracting cake and still eat it like it's worthwhile art. Creators can say whatever the hell they want in interviews, but as a series of multimillion dollar piece of cinematic productions with these product placements, I'm not buying it. If these truly as metatextual, meta-generic productions that do, in fact, attack anime and NGE's legacy in this full, meaningful way, then these require a level of reading ability, a fluency that's so esoteric and based around a knowledable "anime critic" - that's far beyond what I have or care to invest. Moreover, it also means that Gainax are these deconstructionist masterminds. Or they're really poo poo rehashes and this is just wishing they were better, that Anno wasn't this sad man, remaking his one glorious creation for some cash.
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May 12, 2013 01:09
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Sloth Socks posted:See, I'd love it, if the text had a kind of self-awareness or had this metatextual level...but it doesn't. It's Gainax trying to have its disgusting, otaku-attracting cake and still eat it like it's worthwhile art. Creators can say whatever the hell they want in interviews, but as a series of multimillion dollar piece of cinematic productions with these product placements, I'm not buying it. It really doesn't. Nothing I've pointed out is particular esoteric or strange, especially for a Japanese audience member who the film is basically created for. The fact that you don't have the knowledge doesn't make it esoteric because you, by your own admission, have been avoiding the bulk of products made. This isn't deep or complex symbolism. If anything it's painfully blunt and horribly unsubtle. The fact that even you, someone who avoids anime, tuned in to Haruhi fits exactly with what the Evangelion producer talked about when discussing the Curse of Eva. He specifically pointed to Haruhi as an example of "school moe" and how it was a sign that anime has no meaningful future as it stands because of the hyper-focus on selling that sort of thing to adults. Trying to argue death of the author in this case doesn't work when what you're arguing is "there is no subtext because I don't want there to be." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:21 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 01:15
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ImpAtom posted:It really doesn't. Nothing I've pointed out is particular esoteric or strange, especially for a Japanese audience member who the film is basically created for. The fact that you don't have the knowledge doesn't make it esoteric because you, by your own admission, have been avoiding the bulk of products made. So yeah, I shouldn't watch anime. Good to know. Thanks, Anno. Apparently, walking in on Rei naked, again, is a biting critique, instead of rehashing the same trope for the same fans. I would love nothing more than this to be a self-destructive piece of art that attacks its own genre, its own legacy, but based on my viewing & reading, it seems like a rewrite with broader, grosser, prettier strokes. But hey, I'm not Japanese, so I can't understand. I haven't watched the broader strokes of anime for the latter half of the 00's, so hey, can't speak to that either. Based on what I've seen, as a reader, no amount of author input or interview could convince me there's a subtext to this hot mess of neologisms & high definition sexualization of children. The work itself stands as a brash, dumb, and visually bombastic rewrite, so if Anno wants to say it's an attack on the faults of anime, I don't really believe him.
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May 12, 2013 01:32
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Sloth Socks posted:I always ignored the other garbage - the sludge of games, manga, and what-have-you that followed NGE
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May 12, 2013 01:39
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Sloth Socks posted:So yeah, I shouldn't watch anime. Good to know. Thanks, Anno. Apparently, walking in on Rei naked, again, is a biting critique, instead of rehashing the same trope for the same fans. That is because your viewing is "this is empty" and that's a pretty sad way to watch any media. Even the most casual reading of any media is able to form a better analysis than "all of this is meaningless," even if it doesn't agree with the author's intentions. Even ignoring the interviews there are plenty of examples of textual readings which provide a coherent narrative which is based around a fairly straightforward idea. Again, as pointed out above, the second film is "You can (not) advance" and the third is "You can (not) redo." It's right in the titles. If you're going to ignore the text and just write anything off as "meaningless" than there's nothing that will change your mind, but writing something off as meaningless is the death of analysis. You can't 'read' Rebuild without Evangelion, both as a story and as a product, because Rebuild exists to comment on Evangelion. Even ignoring interviews and director commentary, it isn't hard to read the textual details and come to a conclusion about what the story is saying when viewed alongside the original series. I'm also not arguing that it's a subtle masterpiece. My feeling on Rebuild 3.0 is that it is too blunt and too obvious about its subtext. Freaking Iron Man 3 is a more subtle and nuanced movie than Rebuild 3.0, despite 3.0 being filled to the brim with symbolism and metatextual commentary. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:48 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 01:40
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