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Coolguye posted:This is very unique to XCOM among strategy games - the vast majority of strategy games will tolerate early mistakes quite well. XCOM will NOT tolerate losing your first Captain to Thin Man fire very well at all, nor will it tolerate aimless early researching or dragging your feet on base expansion/satellite launching. It's also not going to tolerate more than one or two Condition Blacks. I think the core reason for this is because unlike alot of other TBSes, especially on mid-level difficulties, your opponent isn't actively trying to gently caress you up and make you lose. XCOM, you need to be focused from the get-go even on Normal. A shame that past the first couple of months, if you can get your satellites and research down pat, the game becomes way to easy. I think there really has to be a way for the aliens to respond in proportion to how many sats you've put in the air. And swarm you with shitloads more guys. Also, is there a way to make Sectoids have their Classic stats but still have 4hp? Because otherwise, frag grenades are effectively an "I-win" button.
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May 14, 2013 03:54
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I actually love ironman for the ability to deal with bugs. If I am not playing ironman and I get a bug then I have to go looking for my last save which was probably at the beginning of the mission. On ironman as soon as I get a bug I alt-tab, open the saves folder and back up the save there. Then if the bug bites me in the rear end I can quit, replace the save and get to start over from the beginning of my moves. Works like a charm for cover bugs and teleportation bugs. Never had a "enemies clipped through the level" bug after 160+ hours and apparently you can fix those anyway. The whole alt-tab backup try again method is onerous enough that I don't abuse it for times when I gently caress up.
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May 14, 2013 03:59
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Coolguye posted:I'd agree with this just fine the first month or so, but once Terror missions start coming into play the two of them basically influence eachother equally. The big thing behind my argument is that the battlescape's rewards are split among the various mission types. You can lose one or two of them in any of abductions, ufo landings/crashes, or terror missions and survive just fine. So if you're losses are split up you can have the classic ironman game I ran where I threw rookies armed with the newest equipment I could bring at missions until one of them leveled up enough to carry a squad through the story missions(Badass squad sight less sniper that got his promotion by fragging the final sectopod of the map with a grenade). If your losses are concentrated, like a recent II run I had where I couldn't clear a ufo for the life of me, you can be in a bind with many fewer losses. The geoscape is much more fragile where failing to set up satellites or building structures to excess(creating a financial drain and power crisis) where a single mistake is more profound, rippling through the entire system.
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May 14, 2013 04:07
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FoolyCharged posted:The big thing behind my argument is that the battlescape's rewards are split among the various mission types. You can lose one or two of them in any of abductions, ufo landings/crashes, or terror missions and survive just fine. So if you're losses are split up you can have the classic ironman game I ran where I threw rookies armed with the newest equipment I could bring at missions until one of them leveled up enough to carry a squad through the story missions(Badass squad sight less sniper that got his promotion by fragging the final sectopod of the map with a grenade). If your losses are concentrated, like a recent II run I had where I couldn't clear a ufo for the life of me, you can be in a bind with many fewer losses. The geoscape is much more fragile where failing to set up satellites or building structures to excess(creating a financial drain and power crisis) where a single mistake is more profound, rippling through the entire system. And can take several battlescape missions to rectify
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May 14, 2013 07:24
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I'd been slowly chipping away at a normal difficulty savescumming playthrough of XCOM for the last few months, but reading some of the stories in this thread inspired me to go balls deep and try ironman mode on classic. I've never completed this game let alone played any XCOM game prior to this, but I have to say it's a hell of a lot more fun to take tons of casualties each mission and still struggle through than it ever was loading and reloading and reloading whenever anyone died at all. I doubt I'll survive to the end -- I actually failed the second abduction mission -- but it's loads more fun and I'm starting to feel hooked again.
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May 14, 2013 08:15
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Super Space Jam 64 posted:I'd been slowly chipping away at a normal difficulty savescumming playthrough of XCOM for the last few months, but reading some of the stories in this thread inspired me to go balls deep and try ironman mode on classic. I've never completed this game let alone played any XCOM game prior to this, but I have to say it's a hell of a lot more fun to take tons of casualties each mission and still struggle through than it ever was loading and reloading and reloading whenever anyone died at all. drat I love to read testimonials like this one here. I have a friend who loves the game to death, but he savescummed his way to victory in Classic difficulty. His stories always involve something tragic happening "and then he had to reload". He has no idea how much more fun he'd have with the game if he had to wrestle with the consequences of his decisions. Congratulations for your courage, sir. As a reward, you're now playing a much better game.
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May 14, 2013 13:22
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FoolyCharged posted:The big thing behind my argument is that the battlescape's rewards are split among the various mission types. You can lose one or two of them in any of abductions, ufo landings/crashes, or terror missions and survive just fine. So if you're losses are split up you can have the classic ironman game I ran where I threw rookies armed with the newest equipment I could bring at missions until one of them leveled up enough to carry a squad through the story missions(Badass squad sight less sniper that got his promotion by fragging the final sectopod of the map with a grenade). If your losses are concentrated, like a recent II run I had where I couldn't clear a ufo for the life of me, you can be in a bind with many fewer losses. The geoscape is much more fragile where failing to set up satellites or building structures to excess(creating a financial drain and power crisis) where a single mistake is more profound, rippling through the entire system. The other consideration that you're not taking into account, and that I almost never see taken into account in this thread, is actual player fun levels. Yes, it's hypothetically possible to beat the last five missions of the game with squads of kamikaze squaddies, but if you're at that point you might as well start over so they're on more even odds. The geoscape may be where a campaign is won or lost, but that's not where the meat of the game is, unless you're the world's biggest Sim Space Ant Farm fan. It's less about whether it's hypothetically possible to win, and more about whether you're going to give up in frustration, boredom, or seeing the narrative you've constructed die, especially as a new player.
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May 14, 2013 13:49
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Muscle Tracer posted:It's less about whether it's hypothetically possible to win, and more about whether you're going to give up in frustration, boredom, or seeing the narrative you've constructed die, especially as a new player. I know what you mean, but you know what? I'm glad XCOM is an actual game, and not just a toy. Many games that come out nowadays are not actually games, you know you'll eventually win. You don't reach the Game Over screen, you just restart at your last checkpoint. Saints Row 3 was really fun, I had a blast with that game. But there was nothing really tense about it. No high stakes. The zombie mission was kinda hard, but I knew eventually I'd get through. I just love that XCOM respects you as his opponent, enough to actually want to defeat you (Classic and above). And it's not unfair like Dark Souls, it's really a very fair game. New players will be defeated and get better at it, and then they'll prevail because they're now better at the game. But the thing is, because defeat is POSSIBLE, XCOM creates a tension that I don't see in other games nowadays. And that's where a lot of the thrill comes from, imho.
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May 14, 2013 13:59
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Andre Banzai posted:I just love that XCOM respects you as his opponent, enough to actually want to defeat you (Classic and above). And it's not unfair like Dark Souls, it's really a very fair game. New players will be defeated and get better at it, and then they'll prevail because they're now better at the game. But the thing is, because defeat is POSSIBLE, XCOM creates a tension that I don't see in other games nowadays. And that's where a lot of the thrill comes from, imho. I agree, and that's why I keep playing the game. But I feel like that's a thrill for veterans, not for newbies who just want to see what the heck that "alien base" is about, but they haven't gotten there because the folks on Something Awful Dot Com suggested that they both avoid all guides and also start on classic ironman, which is a combination that's gonna be mighty frustrating.
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May 14, 2013 14:38
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Muscle Tracer posted:I agree, and that's why I keep playing the game. But I feel like that's a thrill for veterans, not for newbies who just want to see what the heck that "alien base" is about, but they haven't gotten there because the folks on Something Awful Dot Com suggested that they both avoid all guides and also start on classic ironman, which is a combination that's gonna be mighty frustrating. Isn't it amazing to find out on your own, though? That's how you and I did it, right? I played the original (my favorite game ever) a lot, and the new version has some plot twists that the original didn't have. I remember my experience with the original, and reading all the research files in order to try to understand what was going on and decide what I should research next. It was absolutely amazing, what other game has that? In the new XCOM, it's in a way simpler to figure things out. Just follow the "priority" research and eventually you'll get there. In the old game, it was a matter of scanning the globe in search for the base(s). In the new one, though, you have to perform some specific, dangerous tasks in order to get there. I mean, we agree with each other pretty much, it's just that to me, I like the horrible tension that this game creates. My emotional bond with XCOM, both the original and the new, was forged in fear and pain. But once you get good at the game... boy, the way you LOVE this game, the way you begin to love even the aliens (yeah, I love even the Thin Men, I think it's a brilliant design. And the Ethereals, drat! I hope we'll see more of them in the future, they're just too good!)... I think the "true" experience of facing the game on Ironman is just too good, it's just worth it.
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May 14, 2013 14:59
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Muscle Tracer posted:I agree, and that's why I keep playing the game. But I feel like that's a thrill for veterans, not for newbies who just want to see what the heck that "alien base" is about, but they haven't gotten there because the folks on Something Awful Dot Com suggested that they both avoid all guides and also start on classic ironman, which is a combination that's gonna be mighty frustrating. Yeah I'd considered starting on Classic but am really glad my first run was on Normal. The most fun playthrough I had was Classic Ironman and it really is a better game (unless you get screwed by the crippling bugs), but it's just too punishing for a first playthrough.
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May 14, 2013 15:04
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Andre Banzai posted:Isn't it amazing to find out on your own, though? That's how you and I did it, right? I played the original (my favorite game ever) a lot, and the new version has some plot twists that the original didn't have. I remember my experience with the original, and reading all the research files in order to try to understand what was going on and decide what I should research next. It was absolutely amazing, what other game has that? Yes. I also started on normal, and savescummed my way to completion the first time after making many, many terrible mistakes. I did not start on Ironman Classic, which is what I'm actually against here. I'm a huge proponent of blind runs, but not the "harder is better" mindset that dominates this thread.
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May 14, 2013 15:05
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Muscle Tracer posted:Yes. I also started on normal, and savescummed my way to completion the first time after making many, many terrible mistakes. I did not start on Ironman Classic, which is what I'm actually against here. I'm a huge proponent of blind runs, but not the "harder is better" mindset that dominates this thread.
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May 14, 2013 15:10
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Muscle Tracer posted:Yes. I also started on normal, and savescummed my way to completion the first time after making many, many terrible mistakes. I did not start on Ironman Classic, which is what I'm actually against here. I'm a huge proponent of blind runs, but not the "harder is better" mindset that dominates this thread. Yeah, I don't believe "harder is better" either. I just believe Classic Ironman feels just right. Agree to disagree, I guess. I like the thrills that come from the high stakes and the sense of hopelessness. Actually, I wish I could feel it again with the game, my first experience with it was the best, status black on my first terror mission and all. That said, I do believe the game employs some "tricks" to fool you into thinking things are much worse than they actually are. The game only ends if 8 countries leave the council, but most people restart the game before the game over screen. And many people have finished the game with 7 countries having left the council. My personal experience: I had 2 status black missions in my own playthrough and other near-wipes. My memorial wall was depressing. It had majors, captains, it was horrible. I don't remember how many countries left the project, maybe 3 or 4. Somehow, though, it's still winnable in those conditions. It was one hell of a ride.
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May 14, 2013 15:18
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Muscle Tracer posted:The other consideration that you're not taking into account, and that I almost never see taken into account in this thread, is actual player fun levels. Yes, it's hypothetically possible to beat the last five missions of the game with squads of kamikaze squaddies, but if you're at that point you might as well start over so they're on more even odds. The geoscape may be where a campaign is won or lost, but that's not where the meat of the game is, unless you're the world's biggest Sim Space Ant Farm fan. Muscle Tracer posted:I agree, and that's why I keep playing the game. But I feel like that's a thrill for veterans, not for newbies who just want to see what the heck that "alien base" is about, but they haven't gotten there because the folks on Something Awful Dot Com suggested that they both avoid all guides and also start on classic ironman, which is a combination that's gonna be mighty frustrating. I won't argue you on either of those points, as the battlescape is where the meat of the game is. The geoscape has been pared down enough from the original to where it is very easy to get a grasp of with a guide, and you don't lose out by using one. It is much more fun to go into the battlescape armed reasonably than to go against grenade enemies without any armor. If you are new, look up the geoscape and you will have so much more fun than if you puzzle it out, or dismiss it over the battlescape. Now, as to whether or not a wall of the dead 60 people long counts as fun or not, well lets just say different strokes for different folks 
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May 14, 2013 15:19
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Andre Banzai posted:Yeah, I don't believe "harder is better" either. I just believe Classic Ironman feels just right. Agree to disagree, I guess. I like the thrills that come from the high stakes and the sense of hopelessness. Actually, I wish I could feel it again with the game, my first experience with it was the best, status black on my first terror mission and all. FoolyCharged posted:Now, as to whether or not a wall of the dead 60 people long counts as fun or not, well lets just say different strokes for different folks Indeed! I just want to represent a different viewpoint for anyone viewing the thread playing the game for the first time.
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May 14, 2013 15:22
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Phobophilia posted:Also, is there a way to make Sectoids have their Classic stats but still have 4hp? Because otherwise, frag grenades are effectively an "I-win" button. If you're on the PC, there's a few programs (at work, and don't recall them off the top of my head, they're on http://xcom.nexusmods.com though) that you can use to update then re-pack the DefaultGameCore.ini file to change most of the functionality of the game. I prefer to turn everything into a massive entrenched firefight, so I edited insanity so enemies have more health, but mostly without the aiming bonuses insanity gives, and jacked up the cost of the advanced weapons and armor by a fair chunk. Makes the late game a bit more challenging and ensures as much of the map as possible is destroyed by stray fire.
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May 14, 2013 15:28
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Muscle Tracer posted:Yes. I also started on normal, and savescummed my way to completion the first time after making many, many terrible mistakes. I did not start on Ironman Classic, which is what I'm actually against here. I'm a huge proponent of blind runs, but not the "harder is better" mindset that dominates this thread. It's not that "harder is better." It's that normal teaches you behaviors that are really, really bad in classic. It makes it harder to beat the game on normal then move into classic than it would be just starting on classic. Starting on Classic Ironman is just going to be an exercise in frustration.
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May 14, 2013 15:40
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As far as I'm concerned, this game really was meant to be played on Ironman. Savescumming your way to a perfect run isn't fun. Dealing with your mistakes and using creativity and tactics to get yourself out of bad situations is fun. It's too bad about the bugs, but I just sort of live with them.
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May 14, 2013 15:49
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I just don't save unless I have to close the game, not sure why there needed to be an Ironman button. I've also had a few squaddies suffer mortal wounds, does this come into play later? Revener fucked around with this message at 20:17 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 18:31
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Soldiers who have been mortally wounded have permanently lowered Will, which means they're more likely to go all Mr. Blonde and start executing teammates if things go pear-shaped.
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May 14, 2013 18:39
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This is insane, this game is insane. I start up a base in Africa 'cause I want that sweet sweet cash. I've gotten used to combat and giving orders, so I sail through the initial skirmishes and the first ufo crash with no casualties. We have everything being built, two sattelites on the way, ground cleared for uplinks, and I run into a snag: my research bonuses I'd gotten comfortable with in Europe no longer apply here. Researching beam weapons takes forEVER. Then, there's another UFO. This one doesn't go as smooth, I lose a unit and get most of the rest of my vets hospitalized. Fine, at least I won--and then, on the way back to base, the invasion starts proper. I have to haul rear end and send my battered B-team and a few rookies we can scrape together (with a vet or two who managed to recover on time) to try and save civilians. Its alright, we manage, but its a long fight, and we're left with most of my guys hospitalized. Three days for beam weapons to finish. Two days. One day-- Abduction mission. Worse yet, its in Asia, and the panic levels are skyrocketing. I *can't* afford to ignore it, unless I'm prepared to face losing India. I have to fight. From then on, it was just one after another. I ended up having to clear four battles in a row before I finally had more than a week of time to research and develop things. It was nuts--we went from being on full systems green to running on absolute vapors, but somehow, I managed only to lose maybe one or two soldiers total...after reloading once. Still, this game is nuts and the RNG hates me. I don't even wanna start with how many times I have missed an enemy with a 97% hit rate.
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May 14, 2013 18:58
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RentCavalier posted:This is insane, this game is insane. Beautiful. Still second month, right? Third month is gonna be cool as well.
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May 14, 2013 19:38
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Revener posted:I just don't save unless I have to close the game, not sure why there needed to be an Ironman button. Because people will take any excuse they can to savescum. So having a mode to actively prevent them from doing so makes them feel better about it.
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May 14, 2013 19:44
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I've been enjoying the game a lot, but recently encountered an interesting thing: I've covered Asia, North and South America with satellites for about a month, yet in July I got an abduction mission in Argentina. Is this a bug, or are aliens able to bypass satellites as the game progresses?
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May 14, 2013 20:15
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Fuligin posted:Soldiers who have been mortally wounded have permanently lowered Will, which means they're more likely to go all Mr. Blonde and start executing teammates if things go pear-shaped. Off the bench came Captain Tanaka, eager to show he still had what it takes. His Will was sub-30 but so what? It's not like anything was going to trouble him and his Colonel sniper buddy beside him when they both have squad sight, right? Wrong. Halfway through the mission, brave Captain Tanaka lines up a long range shot and tags a berserker - which of course uses Intimidate automatically. Brave Captain Tanaka decides the appropriate response to a badly wounded berserker 40+ tiles away is to turn to the Colonel standing right next to him and blow his loving head off. Despite being promoted after that mission Major Tanaka did not come off the bench again. Taratang fucked around with this message at 20:42 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 20:39
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Taratang posted:Despite being promoted after that mission Major Tanaka did not come off the bench again. I'm sure the promotion bumped his Will up enough so that this couldn't possibly happen again. You should definitely put him back in your line-up, and then let us know how it goes.
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May 14, 2013 20:52
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My personal favorite way to play this game is by having a constant Normal/Ironman scenario running. I really, really dig playing that way as it offers just enough difficulty without dreading whether a bug will wipe out my whole squad or adjusting for an insane aim-boost given to aliens. In other news, I broke down and bought  Does this mean I'm Zordon? 
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May 14, 2013 20:57
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Acquire Currency! posted:My personal favorite way to play this game is by having a constant Normal/Ironman scenario running. I really, really dig playing that way as it offers just enough difficulty without dreading whether a bug will wipe out my whole squad or adjusting for an insane aim-boost given to aliens. I'm liking this so hard. Soldier dress up and color-coding is half the game!
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May 14, 2013 20:59
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nacon posted:I'm liking this so hard. Soldier dress up and color-coding is half the game! Oh I did a tiny bit more than that.
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May 14, 2013 21:04
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Please don't spoil me by telling me what enemies to expect, just a general idea of the amount: I have finished the game twice on classic ironman and just bought the slingshot dlc. Playing classic iron man. I just saved and quit at the start of the third (final?) slingshot dlc mission before bed last night. Question about that mission within: so I only just managed to rush through the second mission on time, and now I have 2 laser rifles, no carapace, 3 heavies, 1 squadsight sniper, 1 assault, 1 support with revive and 3 medical packs. Most of my guys are lieutenant/captain. I'm near the end of month two, so only seen mutons inside the slingshot DLC. So! the last 2 slingshot DLC missions had like 8 bad guys, but I'm on a battleship. All I really want to know is : I am not equipped for a normal battleship assault since it's so early-game. Will this be a bit like a normal 'hard' council mission or is this more like a battleship mission? If it's harder than the alien base, I'm screwed since I wouldn't consider myself kitted up for that, enough.
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May 14, 2013 21:16
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Acquire Currency! posted:My personal favorite way to play this game is by having a constant Normal/Ironman scenario running. I really, really dig playing that way as it offers just enough difficulty without dreading whether a bug will wipe out my whole squad or adjusting for an insane aim-boost given to aliens. I feel no shame in saying this: Shouldn't "Dinozord" be tyrannosaurus?
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May 14, 2013 21:18
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Acquire Currency! posted:Oh I did a tiny bit more than that. I like how the yellow one is a dude.
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May 14, 2013 21:18
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revtoiletduck posted:I feel no shame in saying this: Shouldn't "Dinozord" be tyrannosaurus? Well it was referred to in the show occasionally as a Dinozoid Yes they were all 'Zords' or whatever and that's entirely more awesome. Jose Mengelez posted:I like how the yellow one is a dude. Are you really going to tell Trini what she can and cannot do?
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May 14, 2013 21:22
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redreader posted:Please don't spoil me by telling me what enemies to expect, just a general idea of the amount: I have finished the game twice on classic ironman and just bought the slingshot dlc. Playing classic iron man. I just saved and quit at the start of the third (final?) slingshot dlc mission before bed last night. Question about that mission within: so I only just managed to rush through the second mission on time, and now I have 2 laser rifles, no carapace, 3 heavies, 1 squadsight sniper, 1 assault, 1 support with revive and 3 medical packs. Most of my guys are lieutenant/captain. I'm near the end of month two, so only seen mutons inside the slingshot DLC. So! the last 2 slingshot DLC missions had like 8 bad guys, but I'm on a battleship. All I really want to know is : I am not equipped for a normal battleship assault since it's so early-game. Will this be a bit like a normal 'hard' council mission or is this more like a battleship mission? If it's harder than the alien base, I'm screwed since I wouldn't consider myself kitted up for that, enough. I'd say it's slightly easier than the Alien Base. Comparable # of enemies, but treat it like any other council mission: abuse the poo poo out of overwatch and you'll be fine. The train job is by far the hardest mission. If you were able to handle that, you'll easily handle the battleship.
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May 14, 2013 21:33
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Acquire Currency! posted:Well it was referred to in the show occasionally as a Dinozoid Yes they were all 'Zords' or whatever and that's entirely more awesome. Think you might be mixing up the Dragonzord and tyrannosaurus, but that's still an awesome crew you have going. I particularly like how the red ranger is not highest rank!
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May 14, 2013 21:46
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Promontory posted:I've been enjoying the game a lot, but recently encountered an interesting thing: I've covered Asia, North and South America with satellites for about a month, yet in July I got an abduction mission in Argentina. Is this a bug, or are aliens able to bypass satellites as the game progresses? You covered Argentina after the 1st of that month. Abductions are randomly generated at the beginning of a new month, so you can rarely get an abduction in a country that you recently flew a satellite over. The best practice with satellites is to build them and keep them, but only fly them at the end of the current month, just before the council mission. That way you can maximize your panic reduction options.
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May 14, 2013 21:52
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revtoiletduck posted:Think you might be mixing up the Dragonzord and tyrannosaurus, but that's still an awesome crew you have going. I particularly like how the red ranger is not highest rank! Gotta leave room for the white ranger my friend. Holy poo poo I'm going to be upset E:\/\/\/\/\/\/ Or maybe there'll be a recast next season 
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May 14, 2013 21:56
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Obviously the Green Ranger will die to be replaced by the White Ranger.
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May 14, 2013 22:03
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bobfather posted:You covered Argentina after the 1st of that month. Abductions are randomly generated at the beginning of a new month, so you can rarely get an abduction in a country that you recently flew a satellite over. The more you know. Thanks for the explanation!
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May 14, 2013 22:26
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