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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:And yes, that was me taking a smug and disdainful tone to BV. Real players have full knowledge of faction flavor and take imaginative and varied approaches to force composition so that each lance resembles its own special flower oh and they also make gentleman's agreements to do so You can do that within the BV system too! I try to. Or at least I did after I grew out of my "why yes I see nothing wrong with putting eight Stealths in a force" phase, anyway.
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May 21, 2013 23:24
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:I meant to speculate about why just one single 'Mech hasn't been picked and stuck with. Most people are better at letting one iconic image drive their enthusiasm rather than several, all with different artists with different aesthetics. Then I think that's the BattleMaster since it's heavily used in all the new branding. There jsut aren't any new games pushing the Timber Wolf, and the Atlas is only on the cover of the new box because it's one of the included units.
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May 21, 2013 23:24
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BattleMaster posted:Then I think that's the BattleMaster since it's heavily used in all the new branding. I really wish the writers would make the BattleMaster a lot more powerful if that was the case. Most of its variants even as early as going into the Clan Invasion are just dumpy tanks that try to crawl to where the action is supposed to be only to maybe do a little damage at close range and then subsequently get ignored thanks to not being worth the stupidly large effort to mission-kill them. Fraction Jackson posted:Of course, both mechs are still a tier below the truly absurd cavalry heavies like the RFL-6X, the EXC-CS, the OTL-6D/8M, and so on... I also like Arguses. Arguses are amazing. All of their variants.
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May 21, 2013 23:33
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:And yes, that was me taking a smug and disdainful tone to BV. Real players have full knowledge of faction flavor and take imaginative and varied approaches to force composition so that each lance resembles its own special flower oh and they also make gentleman's agreements to do so  Will you also play a Clan Wolf invasion force with 4 Man O' Wars and one Firemoth? Because thats what 60% of the TOE was. Real players my rear end. Beardy grognards more like it, I bet you balance by tonnage too. Thats a No True Scotsman fallacy https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman ------------ Nutsack Rangoon posted:I'm about to play Battletech for the first time ever with a couple of equally inexperienced friends. I bought the introductory set a while ago but I was wondering if anyone had suggestions about what's the best way to introduce people to the game. Everyone knows a little about the lore & idea from playing some of the older video games but that's about it. The intro games I host, i start the kids off with playing the Quick Start rules from the Battletech website. They are 4 mechs, a Cicada, Hunchback etc etc, that ignores internal structure and piloting. Its great to get a handle on movement and shooting without having to worry about crits and falling over. Download and print them out, Grab a map and everyone walks on. After you've run that once or twice and are familiar with movement and shooting you can start using full size sheets and incorporating critical hits, heat, and piloting.
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May 21, 2013 23:35
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Fraction Jackson posted:You can do that within the BV system too! I try to. Or at least I did after I grew out of my "why yes I see nothing wrong with putting eight Stealths in a force" phase, anyway. That's arguably the best compromise, though I will say that there are things that BV can't account for, like combined heat load on a platform (i.e. works for Stealth Armored Pillagers, does NOT work for Stealth Armored Marauders). Kommando posted:
Kinda had the overbearing tone on my "explanation" of my parentheses for a reason, guy. But wait, what? Where are you getting the Man O' War 60% number? Because if you're getting that off of a Random Assignment Table you're thinking grogs take those waaaaaaaay too seriously.
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May 21, 2013 23:43
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:That's arguably the best compromise, though I will say that there are things that BV can't account for, like combined heat load on a platform (i.e. works for Stealth Armored Pillagers, does NOT work for Stealth Armored Marauders). Cambo entered the entire Clan Wolf phonebook TOE into MekHQ, a billion tons of hardware, something like 60% of the mechs in Alpha Galaxy are Man O' Wars. A ludicrous amount.
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May 21, 2013 23:54
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Ah yes, the phonebooks that FASA did. Yeah, I get the feeling Catalyst wishes they could hold a worldwide book-burning of those, with their attitude. But yeah, I recall reading about those kinds of people before who took those as holy scripture. And still want to impose it on all the rest of the factions in the universe. Oh god.
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May 22, 2013 00:14
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Ah yes, the phonebooks that FASA did. Yeah, I get the feeling Catalyst wishes they could hold a worldwide book-burning of those, with their attitude. Hardly, i get the feeling Catalyst would live to finally say "yes this is in, no that is out." but are being held back by the whiny grogs complaining about the universe changing. Thats why 3250 will be a clean slate. The MUL team must cop hell for trying to figure out what has been deprecated, and what factories are gone, having actual numbers at that snapshot in time for two entire clans is really helpful. There has to be flexability to let people play whatever they like but none of those have to be canon.
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May 22, 2013 00:37
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Ah yes, the phonebooks that FASA did. Yeah, I get the feeling Catalyst wishes they could hold a worldwide book-burning of those, with their attitude. They were the absolute peak of BT sperge. There's a book on the Dragoons that is the same way.
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May 22, 2013 00:40
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Oh, i forgot to mention. I got approved as a Catalyst Demo Agent. #544 Ran my first official demo game last Sunday, and used the PDF credit to get the Cosmic Patrol rulebook.
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May 22, 2013 00:55
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Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:I really wish the writers would make the BattleMaster a lot more powerful if that was the case. Most of its variants even as early as going into the Clan Invasion are just dumpy tanks that try to crawl to where the action is supposed to be only to maybe do a little damage at close range and then subsequently get ignored thanks to not being worth the stupidly large effort to mission-kill them. There are a bunch of good BattleMaster variants. Just not any of the ones that use the Dougram art, which is a shame because the Bigfoot is a good mecha design. The Project Phoenix and onwards variants are almost all great or at least have some utility, like the dual C3 Master one. The K3 (ER PPC, 2 ER LLAS, a bunch of smaller weapons, and a C3 master with 4/6/0 move) and the K4 (Gauss, LPLAS, SNPPC, a couple of ER mediums, and 3/5/5 move) stand out to me.
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May 22, 2013 01:32
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BattleMaster posted:There are a bunch of good BattleMaster variants. Just not any of the ones that use the Dougram art, which is a shame because the Bigfoot is a good mecha design. The Project Phoenix and onwards variants are almost all great or at least have some utility, like the dual C3 Master one. Pretty much all the PP mechs are improvements. Take a look at the 3075-3145 Aerospace, compared to the originals, they went from being pretty meh to quite decent. Catalyst seem to have a better grasp of game design and balance. FASA was still in that early age of gaming where you slapped some numbers together and Wizards ate Fighters above level 8.
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May 22, 2013 01:56
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Fraction Jackson posted:You can do that within the BV system too! I try to. Or at least I did after I grew out of my "why yes I see nothing wrong with putting eight Stealths in a force" phase, anyway.  Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:I really wish the writers would make the BattleMaster a lot more powerful if that was the case. Most of its variants even as early as going into the Clan Invasion are just dumpy tanks that try to crawl to where the action is supposed to be only to maybe do a little damage at close range and then subsequently get ignored thanks to not being worth the stupidly large effort to mission-kill them.
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May 22, 2013 02:20
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I'm not very enamored with the Reseen Beemer variants, either. Finally getting both a Gauss Rifle and two head-stripping backup weapons on the K4 comes close to utility with its IJJs, but for the most part if a 'Mech's base speed is going to be that slow, it might as well make attempts at controlling the areas that it can actually reach with its weapons. And by controlling, I really mean being able to tear medium 'Mechs apart in one salvo akin to what the Devastator can do. Guys, I think I have Clan SitTech weapon-envy. 
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May 22, 2013 02:29
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Thanks for the responses guys, my current idea for a post-Jihad/3145 star is: Timber Wolf Prime Timber Wolf D Verfolger VR5-R Mad Dog Prime Looking for a decently mobile star that is okay at all ranges. Not sure what mech to round off the star, or if the Mad Dog fits in there.
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May 22, 2013 04:04
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The two greatest words in Battletech are "battlefield" and "salvage".
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May 22, 2013 04:11
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Weissritter posted:Thanks for the responses guys, my current idea for a post-Jihad/3145 star is: The Mad Dog is fine. You could either add another Verfolger (VR6-C with the missiles) or Arctic Wolf, those could back up the T-Wolf D, or you could add a Pack Hunter to take advantage of back-shots.
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May 22, 2013 16:34
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What's good amongst the new Catalyst Technical Readouts? My FASA 3058 is worn down from use, I like the mix of units and also like the succession wars -> clan invasion periods. The Catalyst website is a bit confusing since it marks, for example, the 3067 and 3085 TRs as succession wars-applicable. I guess because there are older designs outlined within? I grabbed the new Total Warfare and TechManual, and I'm digging them. So far the only thing that seems wonky is conventional infantry construction, which if I'm reading it right is a system that really needs you to stick to lore friendly options rather than powergame your squad sizes / support weapons / etc.
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May 24, 2013 07:32
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Adam Kensai posted:What's good amongst the new Catalyst Technical Readouts? My FASA 3058 is worn down from use, None of the new 'Mechs look like eggs anymore. It's very sad. quote:I like the mix of units and also like the succession wars -> clan invasion periods. The Catalyst website is a bit confusing since it marks, for example, the 3067 and 3085 TRs as succession wars-applicable. I guess because there are older designs outlined within? TRO 3067 I know has the very special exception of the Cronus with regards to low tech levels. TRO 3085 is this giant multiple-project TRO with sections on a bunch of things ranging from Land-Air 'Mechs to refits of the old Macross standbys like the Warhammer to tiny DropShips that can bring down those stupidly large WarShips that used to be around. quote:I grabbed the new Total Warfare and TechManual, and I'm digging them. So far the only thing that seems wonky is conventional infantry construction, which if I'm reading it right is a system that really needs you to stick to lore friendly options rather than powergame your squad sizes / support weapons / etc. Even if you do powergame your conventionals, it's making a marginal difference in your force composition if we're talking about 'Mech-scale combat. Also, it barely makes a scratch in The Holey & Undefatigable Order of Cannonn. If you're into faction-flavored standard infantry kits, I recall the Tactical Operations book has specific ratings of them for each faction, with regards to armor especially (in addition to Field Guns/Artillery, also really cool). Also, for a very large number of new options and tons of additional faction flavor, check TRO 3085's section dedicated to specialized ops conventional infantry.
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May 24, 2013 13:33
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Lots of the Civil War era books talk about old Star League mechs coming back into service as tech comes online, and the Jihad era books have lovely primitive designs and Age of War mechs being used because Jihad.
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May 24, 2013 14:13
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What I'm getting from you two is that I should buy strategic operations and a bunch 'o tech manuals, and get all my friends into Battletech again because it is awesome. Seriously, though, I guess I'll drop in a game store and thumb through some of the TRs and pick a couple. I've another question, though, as I plow through the techmanual: Why do Protomechs exist? I understand the lore reasoning, but I'm not sure why from a gameplay perspective you needed something between battle armor and mechs.
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May 24, 2013 16:22
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Tactical. Tactical Operations has the fancy toys. Strategic Operations is for running multi-session campaigns.
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May 24, 2013 16:29
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Adam Kensai posted:Why do Protomechs exist? They're fun and they shake the game up a little.
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May 24, 2013 16:59
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PoptartsNinja posted:They're fun and they shake the game up a little. They're more variety, not much else to it really.
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May 24, 2013 17:02
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I liked the Hobgoblin, the Boggart and the Sprite. They were ProtoMechs, but didn't look like animal suits. Too bad none of the factions will ever be able to use them again.
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May 24, 2013 18:10
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I hate them automatically because the prefix "proto-" implies they were around before mechs. E.g., prototypes. And that would actually make sense, if you started with man-sized powered armored suits and then just gradually they kept getting bigger and bigger in some kind of arms race, until suddenly you had the Mackie. But that's not it at all, they're newer and spiffier or whatever, so why the gently caress are they called protomechs!
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May 24, 2013 18:37
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Reasons I dislike protomechs: 1) I'm old and dislike change 2) Near misses (although they remind me of that George Carlin bit) 3) I kind of wish they were just expanded rules for larger battle armor, the separate hit locations on something so small seems a bit wonky to me. 4) Goddamn animal art. Sidesaddle Cavalry posted:Tactical. Tactical Operations has the fancy toys. Strategic Operations is for running multi-session campaigns. That is what I meant and I will grab it, but is Strategic Operations where the rules for repair, salvage, and other such things are? The website seemed to make it sound like it was warship, aerospace, and the Battleforce stuff. Edit to The Gate below: There are things about them that I like, but I feel like we have a running treadmill of "introduce unique Clan thing, give thing to the IS, need to make something new." Adam Kensai fucked around with this message at 20:59 on May 24, 2013 |
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May 24, 2013 19:19
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I thought protomechs were cool... I thought they were pretty fun to play with and gave clans a little more variety in playstyles, which was cool. Plus, the fluff was amusing about how they just wanted to do something useful with their aero pilots since they weren't any better than IS pilots.
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May 24, 2013 20:10
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The Gate posted:I thought protomechs were cool... Specifically they wanted to do something about the numbers of washed out Clan pilots. They had a hard time using them as manual labours like the other phenotypes because they're so small and weak. Recycling!
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May 24, 2013 20:56
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Adam Kensai posted:Edit to The Gate below: There are things about them that I like, but I feel like we have a running treadmill of "introduce unique Clan thing, give thing to the IS, need to make something new." Let me introduce you to the (formerly Capellan) Plasma Rifle....
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May 24, 2013 21:12
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Yeah that's completely wrong except for battle armour and omnimechs early on in the invasion. After that, the IS has introduced far, far more unique items than the Clans did, and never copied any additional Clan items except for the Targeting Computer. The difference in variety of equipment was why, when Record Sheets 3067 Unabridged was released, I carefully pored over each new IS variant and didn't even bother looking at the Clan ones, just because of how boring Clan equipment is.
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May 24, 2013 21:20
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Pretty much. Clan equipment is pretty much all "better level 1 equipment" except for a few times (battle armor, TC, HAG).
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May 24, 2013 21:30
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BattleMaster posted:Yeah that's completely wrong except for battle armour and omnimechs early on in the invasion. After that, the IS has introduced far, far more unique items than the Clans did, and never copied any additional Clan items except for the Targeting Computer. If I recall, battle armor and omnis were kind of a big deal.
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May 24, 2013 21:53
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Adam Kensai posted:If I recall, battle armor and omnis were kind of a big deal. Yeah but two things don't make an endless treadmill of Clan equipment filtering into the hands of the IS. And that happened like 20 years ago in real life time. If you're bitter about that then give it up.
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May 24, 2013 21:54
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I'm not bitter about anything, I don't have strong feelings about Battletech things. But when last I was reading stuff, it was the clan invasion and those were the big Clan things, and then the Inner Sphere had them. The last books I read were FASA published.
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May 24, 2013 22:44
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Oh I see. I guess at that point in time the equipment list was kind of slim. I think it's unfair to assume that the IS ripping off tech continued to define the game, because that trend was very short-lived. Both factions introduced many new things and copied very little from each other. But the IS introduced far, far more new items. Right now there's such a ridiculous stack of exclusive IS parts and weapons that the Clans don't even compare in variety. The Clans are still better per ton but Inner Sphere units have far more tricks and construction options. Edit: I mean seriously look at this poo poo. This is a bunch of the IS-exclusive stuff from Total Warfare, the current basic rulebook. Light/Heavy/Snub-Nose PPCs. Light and heavy are what you'd expect. Snub-Nose PPCs have incredible short ranges, tiny medium and long ranges, and have damage falloff past short. Light AC/2s and Light AC/5s plus all sorts of special ammo for light and standard ACs including precision (reduces target move mod), caseless (more ammo per ton with a chance to jam) and others. Triple-Strength Myomer for when you need your melee attacks to do even more damage. Multi-Missile Launchers for when you can't decide whether you want SRMs or LRMs. Plus loads of ammo choices for each like semi-guided LRMs (gains a bonus vs laser designated targets). Melee weapons! Something the Clans never got. Something something honour. Stealth armour - gives a to-hit penalty at medium and long range. Light/heavy ferro-fibrous armour. More/less slots, more/less armour multiplier over the standard. XL/compact/heavy-duty gyros - more slots/less weight, more weight/less slots, and can take an extra hit before being destroyed respectively. Compact/Light fusion engines - lights take 2 slots instead of 3 as with the XL but are 75% of the weight. Compact takes up only 3 slots in the CT but weighs some multiplier more. Small cockpits. 1 less ton, 1 less slot in the head, +1 piloting skill penalty. Plasma Rifles - Giant mega-flamers. For when you want to say gently caress YOU to non-mechs. Or mechs too. They say gently caress YOU to everything. Light/Heavy gauss rifles. Heavies are actually more than just bigger gausses, with range-based damage falloff and a chance to knock you over if you move while firing it. But they do 25 damage at short range which is more than anything else 'mechs get. Rocket Launchers - for when you want to do massive one-shot death salvos. Medium-Range Missiles - Reloadable rocket launchers with terrible range brackets unless... C3/C3i - lets you link targeting together and fire at the closest linked unit's range instead of your own. Which actually makes MRMs usable and everything else amazing... if you avoid ECM of course. C3 requires a 5-ton master connected to up to 3 1-ton slaves (expandable to 12 units). C3i uses a 2.5-ton masterless unit that can link up to 6 units. Are you still going to say that the IS only gets new stuff when they rip it off the Clans? And that's not even counting how ridiculous it gets in Tactical Operations with like dozens of new ammo types, every kind of melee weapon you can imagine, all sorts of new types of lasers, and all sorts of other poo poo the Clans don't get. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 23:12 on May 24, 2013 |
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May 24, 2013 22:53
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BattleMaster posted:Oh I see. I guess at that point in time the equipment list was kind of slim. I think it's unfair to assume that the IS ripping off tech continued to define the game, because that trend was very short-lived. Both factions introduced many new things and copied very little from each other. But the IS introduced far, far more new items. Neat. I think in my time it was just MRMs (which did suck without C3s), C3s (awesome), and the triple strength myomer (which I believe the clans had but thought was dumb). I am going to grab Tactical Operations because 'mech design is my favorite part of the game and more options is great. I asked above, but which of the Tactical/Strategic Operations (or even another core book) has the updates of the old rules for repair, salvage, etc.? BattleMaster posted:Are you still going to say that the IS only gets new stuff when they rip it off the Clans? I have never said this.
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May 24, 2013 23:15
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Then I don't know what you were trying to say with:quote:but I feel like we have a running treadmill of "introduce unique Clan thing, give thing to the IS, need to make something new." What do you mean by that if you weren't trying to say that the game's design philosophy was to give things to the Clans first and then have it filter down to the Inner Sphere before repeating the process? And the IS never got protomechs even though there was a perfect in-universe chance for them to have done so - it could have been some Word of Blake secret project since they were already regular users of direct neural interface tech. Edit: Adam Kensai posted:I asked above, but which of the Tactical/Strategic Operations (or even another core book) has the updates of the old rules for repair, salvage, etc.? Strategic Operations does. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 23:21 on May 24, 2013 |
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May 24, 2013 23:17
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The hilarious thing is that based on the way Clan mechs play, the Snubnose PPC would be their ideal weapon.
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May 24, 2013 23:20
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Captain Foo posted:The hilarious thing is that based on the way Clan mechs play, the Snubnose PPC would be their ideal weapon. They have it it's the Clan Large Pulse Laser :/
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May 24, 2013 23:21
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