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A job posting suggests that Dragonfly will still be around. 
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May 28, 2013 16:30
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Polsy posted:Well, they say Speed Dial (which now has folders) is meant to replace bookmarks, and stash is a separate thing (which I can't see the point of, because I leave things open in tabs so I remember about them, if I didn't want to leave them open I'd bookmark them). Thanks, that makes a bit more sense. Still not usable if you've got 300+ bookmarks, but at least there's some way to organize. It looks like some Chrome extensions can be installed without modifications. If you've got a link to the .crx file, Opera will try to install it, although the extension may need to be enabled. You can also import extensions that you've installed in Chrome - go to the extensions menu, enable developer mode, and tell it to 'Load unpacked extension', pointing it to the extension's folder (mine are in C:\Users\Username\AppData\Local\Google\Chrome\User Data\Default\Extensions\Extension ID\version - point Opera at the version folder.) I don't use a lot of extensions, but I installed Adblock and Keepass and they worked, although Adblock had an error when installing.
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May 28, 2013 16:54
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I like the new download manager a lot. It appears that they've ditched the torrent support, but nobody used that anyway, did they?
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May 28, 2013 17:01
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No linux build? t('.'t) Maybe if I'm feeling masochistic later I'll see how broken it is in wine.
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May 28, 2013 17:22
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flappin fish posted:I don't use a lot of extensions, but I installed Adblock and Keepass and they worked, although Adblock had an error when installing. There's already Opera 15 versions of Adblock and Ghostery.
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May 28, 2013 17:25
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I agree that it would be nice if they shared with us their roadmap and what features they have planned. I'm not throwing in the towel just yet. This is a really early build and they may have wanted to throw this out in the wild to get some good use and bugs on it before they integrate more stuff. I would much rather they do it this way; iteratively build up the features to make sure the browser doesn't get messy from a code point of view rather than trying to slam everything in there at once and produce a buggy mess. Hopefully that's their strategy...
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May 28, 2013 17:48
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Man, when I heard they were switching away from Presto I was hoping they'd "just" plug in a new renderer and keep everything else the same, but no. This release, even if it's just a preview, is an absolute turd. Major stuff I'm missing: Responsive mouse gestures (How did they even manage to gently caress this up? Took me like 20 tries to get the close tab gesture to work, when they are perfect as they were in 12.) Left-click-Right-click forward and backwards Being able to put tabs and address bar on bottom Integrated RSS and IRC I've been using Opera for 13 years now (even paid for it once), and I really hope they do some major changes between this preview and final release. I just hope they don't try to force-update Opera 12 through the auto-updater when 15 goes final. And finally; gently caress you Opera for making me Care so much about a web browser. I feel like such a dork. 
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May 28, 2013 17:53
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I was about to say something about how long it's been since the last build and how the natives were getting restless but it turns out it wasn't quite two months. Or ages in internet time I guess.  But yeah, I'll be fine with it as long as they actually pay attention to user feedback and fix bugs and implement missing features. And push out a linux build as promised.
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May 28, 2013 17:56
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Riso posted:There's already Opera 15 versions of Adblock and Ghostery. Adblock Plus. I like the interface and options of Adblock for Chrome a bit better.
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May 28, 2013 18:00
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According to Opera, users should be able to use some of the extensions from the Chrome Store, as I understand, and they've released a conversion tool for extensions. There's an upside to it that means that unmaintained extensions will be left behind. The CTRL+Shift+T shortcut makes sense, since it's the opposite action of creating a new tab. I'm still not sure where Opera is taking the browser, and cutting out all the small things, if just for now, doesn't jive well with me; after all, the second half of this thread's title is "Yeah, Opera can do that".
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May 28, 2013 18:03
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On the plus side, as one of those people who were getting restless, it's very nice to have the conversion out. I hope it's just a skeleton with a lot more meat to be hung on it and not a 90's waif model permanently. But there was a sincere hope that this was going to be mostly an under-the-hood conversion but this thing is Chrome as all hell. The implications made about the Swiss Army nature of the browser earlier are completely on the nose. It did so many things that I have no idea if there's even a squeakiest wheel in terms of features people seriously need. My own list is just as personalized and I wouldn't assume duplicated by others. I really hope they fast track adding those features because otherwise they have a bog standard pocket knife with nothing to distinguish it. Everyone is right on target that the thing that would quiet a lot of this concern would be a roadmap. Maybe they don't even know what Chrome won't let them do so that's why they just leave it open. Man, glad that there's a beating heart in Opera but I hope they make bold and constant changes to get it up to where people need it to be. Please don't relaunch it in this state because nobody new will try and it and think it's anything other than a renamed Chrome. They need those features that differentiated them to stand out. Edit: Okay, seriously, how do you alter your shortcuts? I see there's a section under settings to enable shortcuts but nothing further.
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May 28, 2013 19:20
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I'm probably in the minority since I don't think I use any Opera-specific features. Everything else has been stolen or created as extensions for Chrome or Firefox long ago, but I never switched out of stubbornness/laziness. The one thing I'd really hate to lose is the auto-download of files in the background (don't wait for me to pick a file location to start saving). Does any other browser do that at the moment? Or do they all just cram everything into Downloads and forget about it? Also, Opera's gestures always just "felt" better than any other browser to me, but that's probably just because they're the first I ever used.
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May 28, 2013 22:21
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Rooster Brooster posted:Or do they all just cram everything into Downloads and forget about it? I think they all do this unless you "Save as"
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May 28, 2013 22:23
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flappin fish posted:Bad things (that haven't been mentioned yet)  and if I was switching from Opera I'd probably move to Chrome anyway (after 12 literally implodes on me). I'm not throwing in the towel on Opera quite yet, just feeling rather pessimistic right now.Riso posted:There's already Opera 15 versions of Adblock and Ghostery. Wheany posted:That version number just annoys me so much.
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May 28, 2013 22:33
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Revoicing what is already the consensus in here: Excited to hear the new Next build was out - deeply disappointed to find out that it is basically just Chromium with a different logo. I understand the huge amount of work that it would take to excise Presto and transplant Blink into its place as a rendering engine, but I think that's all anybody really wanted from the desktop - the same UI with better handling of plugins/javascript/etc. Hopefully they'll start bringing all of that back, because their out-of-the-door build is just a giant letdown. I am oddly pleased about a standalone M2 client, however. I don't know why but I just find it's really simple straightforward behavior to be really nice and what I need in a personal mail & RSS client(work, etc goes through Outlook, unsurprisingly)
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May 28, 2013 22:40
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Cuntpunch posted:RSS client
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May 28, 2013 22:58
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Doom Goon posted:For me it is the opposite, if it isn't integrated than it is just another open program I'll end up ignoring (especially if it is as barebones as their old solution was/is). And regardless of that I'd likely have to open up expanded links in Opera anyway. Excessive modularity just becomes an excuse for developers to do nothing, and even when people make their own extensions, they're really taxing (because these are the works of hobbyists), and they can also introduce security problems, which lead even Mozilla of all people to police their extension ecosystem more. If I wanted a stripped-down version of Chrome, I might as well just go with Safari.
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May 28, 2013 23:18
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Doom Goon posted:For me it is the opposite, if it isn't integrated than it is just another open program I'll end up ignoring (especially if it is as barebones as their old solution was/is). And regardless of that I'd likely have to open up expanded links in Opera anyway. I think part of my relief is just that it's still around and maybe going to be continued to be kept up to date(as little as that really means). I totally see your point and suspect that if they bring most of the other stuff I'm missing from 12 into 15, then I won't be entirely devastated if they keep Mail as a separate thing.
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May 28, 2013 23:30
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There's nothing of Opera left except gestures. With the .ini files and opera:config gone, I can't even make an attempt at fixing the bad design decisions here. I only use extensions to block things or fix specific web pages. I don't want to manage extensions for basic browser options. gently caress this bullshit. I'd rather pay for a real Opera browser than use this.
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May 29, 2013 00:03
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Cuntpunch posted:I think part of my relief is just that it's still around and maybe going to be continued to be kept up to date(as little as that really means). I totally see your point and suspect that if they bring most of the other stuff I'm missing from 12 into 15, then I won't be entirely devastated if they keep Mail as a separate thing. Oh yeah, if it's a choice of just dropping their Mail client I'm glad they're continuing it... well, in theory at least, if I do have to change because I won't get what I want regardless I might as well start from scratch and really look into it. I didn't want to set up an account through it, but somebody on a comment mentioned it doesn't have RSS at all (at the moment?). Some comment by the M2 project manager (borg) in the gigantic thread on the Opera snapshot blog mentioned that when they started M2 a decade ago they debated moving it to a separate project, and also that because M2 uses Presto there's no real way of incorporating the mail engine without a rewrite/ton of development (which they can't really do as they're dealing with all their other problems). So... if anyone else uses it I wouldn't hold your breathe for it. Honestly, it isn't their biggest problem, it just is for me the one that stops me from even radically changing my usage to adopt Opera 15 in the near future (as it seems it will be). Now, time for optimism! Um... at least those Facebook rumors weren't true? 
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May 29, 2013 00:32
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Doom Goon posted:Some comment by the M2 project manager (borg) in the gigantic thread on the Opera snapshot blog mentioned that when they started M2 a decade ago they debated moving it to a separate project, and also that because M2 uses Presto there's no real way of incorporating the mail engine without a rewrite/ton of development (which they can't really do as they're dealing with all their other problems). Well, that's at least a much more sensible explanation than "because not everyone uses it, we took it out!" I was briefly excited by the posts about some Chrome extensions being usable, but then discovered that Chrome has no side-tabs extensions that aren't an ugly separate-window hack. I feel cautiously optimistic that Opera will add that one in not super long though, which'd get me through the majority of my personal want-list. Perhaps the question we should be asking is less "what's missing since Opera 12?" and more "what's added from Chrome?". I've never really jumped ship for more than a couple of days, so I'm not well versed here. Anybody able to make a good Chrome vs Opera 15 comparison? Presumably they at least want to bring over some users of other browsers, and don't mind alienating a few of their current ones in the process, so what does it seem like they're attempting to offer to new people? [edit] Some other random things I learned from reading https://twitter.com/opvard
Lakitu7 fucked around with this message at 01:25 on May 29, 2013 |
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May 29, 2013 01:01
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Lakitu7 posted:Perhaps the question we should be asking is less "what's missing since Opera 12?" and more "what's added from Chrome?". I've never really jumped ship for more than a couple of days, so I'm not well versed here. Anybody able to make a good Chrome vs Opera 15 comparison? Presumably they at least want to bring over some users of other browsers, and don't mind alienating a few of their current ones in the process, so what does it seem like they're attempting to offer to new people? I switched from Opera to Chrome as my primary browser a few months ago. They're very similar, but here's what I've noticed so far (aside from the immediately obvious UI differences like the menu button location): * Opera 15 appears to be considerably faster that Chrome on page loading, but I haven't done any serious testing. Off-road mode is even faster and appears to work better than Opera Turbo did in v12. * Certain Chrome features are improved, like the download, plugin, and extensions managers, all of which use a similar UI that allows filtering. I like this a lot. * It has an Opera 12-style customizable speed dial, instead of Chrome's method of automatically populating it with popular items from your history. It's improved from 12, and I think it uses the same basic code as the Android version since you can now create folders in your speed dial. Again, I like this a lot. * It does not appear to have a bookmark system outside of the Speed Dial. There is a greyed-out "bookmark importer" in the "more tools" area of the main menu, suggesting that there will be more options later. * There's some other bits missing compared to Chrome, like the icon that shows up in the address bar when there are blocked plugins, but I suspect those are en route. I'm not really using big local lists of bookmarks much anymore, so the only thing that's really keeping me from using this full-time over Chrome is the lack of a few extensions I can't do without anymore, like CommentBlocker and Pocket. I haven't had any crashes or significant problems and I've been using it most of today. On the other hand, I can totally understand why most Opera users are going to be upset. I never used the panels, the note system, and lots of other Opera features, so the switch to Chrome wasn't that painful for me. If you used those features a lot then you're going to be very unhappy with this version since it's exceedingly stripped-down.
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May 29, 2013 02:28
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Why must this happen
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May 29, 2013 05:56
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They haven't even bothered to implement the fast forward features to automatically go to the next page in line.
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May 29, 2013 08:18
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In the 15 version, I sometimes (randomly) get all content of a page compressed in a narrow column centered in the main content view. It happens on forums more often (but that's probably because I frequent many forums during my web browsing sessions). Is this a known Chromium bug?Lakitu7 posted:[edit] Some other random things I learned from reading https://twitter.com/opvard I think he should give it some time, and also read closer. Unless "a lot" means about a dozen. Also in his twitter he states that Speed Dial is now replacing bookmarks ("The new Speed Dial with folder replaces bookmarks.") and he's not talking about the mobile version (which could make some sense, but not much). Adding to pessimism, I get a feeling that the preview version (feature set -wise) is closer to a final version 15 that I'd like to believe.
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May 29, 2013 09:19
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AbstractNapper posted:I think he should give it some time, and also read closer. Unless "a lot" means about a dozen. 
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May 29, 2013 09:45
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AbstractNapper posted:Also in his twitter he states that Speed Dial is now replacing bookmarks ("The new Speed Dial with folder replaces bookmarks.") and he's not talking about the mobile version (which could make some sense, but not much). I always thought Speed Dial was very "smart phone" and never adopted it (plus I like clean, fast and low resources interfaces, maybe to a fault). I know some people love it, absolutely love it, and I mean them no ill will or anything honestly, but it is just baffling to me I won't even have the option of simple, quick lists of urls... I guess somebody'll make a bookmark extension 
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May 29, 2013 12:55
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Someone linked a poll in the dev comments to see what features people considered important and what they will use in the future. http://pollmill.com/f/farewell-opera-b1wtpmr.fullpage
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May 29, 2013 13:03
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Doom Goon posted:I always thought Speed Dial was very "smart phone" and never adopted it (plus I like clean, fast and low resources interfaces, maybe to a fault). I know some people love it, absolutely love it, and I mean them no ill will or anything honestly, but it is just baffling to me I won't even have the option of simple, quick lists of urls... I use the speed dial all the time, but I have no idea how it's supposed to replace bookmarks. My speed dial has the 16 sites I use most frequently, but I have hundreds of bookmarks — I certainly don't want all of them on my speed dial page. I can't imagine how they'd even display that. Some of my bookmarks folders have dozens of items in them, would I have to further categorise them to get them to fit on the screen?
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May 29, 2013 14:00
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I like speed-dial. I stick my 6 most frequently used sites on there, because that is the furthest number I can reach while holding ctrl with my pinky. It's just so handy to hit ctrl+1-6 whenever I want to check something.
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May 29, 2013 14:29
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Kevin Bacon posted:I like speed-dial. I stick my 6 most frequently used sites on there, because that is the furthest number I can reach while holding ctrl with my pinky. It's just so handy to hit ctrl+1-6 whenever I want to check something. This is exactly what I use speed dial for. But I have, well, a lot of bookmarks and maybe twenty subfolders. Granted, I could probably delete most of them, but it's not like bookmarks are somehow a "legacy" concept.
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May 29, 2013 14:59
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I primarily use Firefox but I've occasionally given Chrome a try. Is the omnibar mandatory? I guess I'm in the minority these days but I much prefer how Firefox does it since I feel it gives you all the benefits but more flexibiity.
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May 29, 2013 15:13
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Riso posted:Someone linked a poll in the dev comments to see what features people considered important and what they will use in the future. Cause if so i think i've just hit a new low. 
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May 29, 2013 17:06
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Contrary to most internet petitions this might actually gives the devs an idea what people use. Right guys?
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May 29, 2013 17:13
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All the weepiness aside, at least the poll has a fair list of feature requests. I don't miss the two minutes it took to fill it out most of which came from wiki-ing the year of Opera releases to answer that question. [Ken Burns music]The gentle spring wind blew out over the wartorn Kansas City metro area. It was 2004 and without knowing it, the button was pressed for "Download Opera" and the course of his browsing history was changed forever.
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May 29, 2013 17:28
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The freakin' mobile update screwed up all my Folders. They're all in one giant flat file now. Is there any way to fix that and put them back into Folders?
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May 29, 2013 18:09
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http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/opera-features-and-release-cycle Apparently they're going to be following the usual browser development cycle of dev/beta(aka next)/release in the future. But more importantly: quote:So let's talk about features.
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May 29, 2013 23:00
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Hexaemeron posted:There's nothing of Opera left except gestures. With the .ini files and opera:config gone, I can't even make an attempt at fixing the bad design decisions here.  I guess most of their effort's on the mobile browser and the desktop is just a vestigial limb?Doom Goon posted:I always thought Speed Dial was very "smart phone" and never adopted it Kevin Bacon posted:I like speed-dial. I stick my 6 most frequently used sites on there, because that is the furthest number I can reach while holding ctrl with my pinky. It's just so handy to hit ctrl+1-6 whenever I want to check something. Heresiarch posted:http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/opera-features-and-release-cycle
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May 29, 2013 23:15
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Heresiarch posted:I switched from Opera to Chrome as my primary browser a few months ago. They're very similar, but here's what I've noticed so far (aside from the immediately obvious UI differences like the menu button location): This is all encouraging to me. If it's faster than chrome, and reportedly pretty stable, that's certainly a great foundation for something great if they can bring back some of the old feature creep without ruining it all. Thanks for such a detailed reply. AbstractNapper posted:Adding to pessimism, I get a feeling that the preview version (feature set -wise) is closer to a final version 15 that I'd like to believe. "I don't have any details to share about specific old features, but again, there will be versions after 15." - Opvard's twitter I think they're creeping up the version numbers as quickly as they can because of this ridiculous version-number-war that all the browsers seem to be having, so yes I agree that this is close to final 15, but I also don't think that arbitrary tag matters at all to me personally. Riso posted:Someone linked a poll in the dev comments to see what features people considered important and what they will use in the future. Here's a direct link to the results of that one: http://pollmill.com/f/farewell-opera-b1wtpmr/answers.html I think it confirms that most Opera users have a few features that are critical for them but which features these are has little consistency across users. It seems to be that it would be basically impossible for them to please everyone without feature-creeping back up to the point where they have too many to reasonably maintain (especially after firing so many people), thus returning to being a buggy mess with 400 features that barely/don't work. Some features won't return, and they really shouldn't try to bring back everything because that was how they screwed up the first time, but like everyone I hope the cut things aren't my personal favorites. Heresiarch posted:http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/opera-features-and-release-cycle "A feature-rich tab bar" probably covers everything on my personal list.  I feel bad for others left in wondering about theirs though.Asimo posted:While this is a bit of an overstatement, I honestly can't disagree. I literally see no reason not to just use Chrome or Firefox instead, since everything that made Opera unique is gone and those browsers are far better supported and established. I didn't abuse as much of it as some people here, but even little things like being able to heavily customize the hotkeys and layout were critical to me. I may be really strange but I use the ridiculous number of tabs I can have open in place of bookmarks, and in place of speeddial. I have maybe fewer than 10 bookmarks. If I want to come back to something I just leave it open in a tab. There just isn't really an instance of something I want to come back to later, but not regularly enough to keep in a tab. I use keywords for a few things and I use custom searches heavily though. Custom searches being bugged in whatever version of Chrome I tried last year was the main reason I gave up on it quickly. For a time I tried one of those "read it later" extensions but found that if I went too long without reading a thing to the point I was stashing it, I just accept that I never will and close it. I feel decently confident that keywords will come back. One of these opvard tweets suggests that he personally uses it heavily. Re: mobile emphasis, it was posted earlier that Desktop has a larger number of people working on it than Mobile, which would at least suggest otherwise.
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May 30, 2013 00:35
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Lakitu7 posted:Here's a direct link to the results of that one: http://pollmill.com/f/farewell-opera-b1wtpmr/answers.html Yeah, I think you're nail on the head there but there is a process that can work which is to really nail each feature down before moving on. Opera's big problems always seemed to be nifty ideas that never got the robust treatment of end to end development. Like they'd get a feature to the point that it wouldn't crash things and move on rather than fine tuning the experience to be as good as it can be. I don't mind waiting for my desired features if it meant their feature rich tab bar had a well thought out and a more than merely functional tab grouping system. Tab Groups felt like they had serious potential for all kinds of innovative things, like making them manageable mini-sessions or workspaces so you could segregate your activities (or even better, recover resources from stuff in a collapsed tab group). Some options like keeping opening new tabs at the end of a stack to make it easier to craft a workspace. But instead it felt like they got it to the point that it wouldn't crash and then left it to be a mess of manual housekeeping and odd behavior. So I agree with you that their userbase wants some of their featureset very badly and they don't agree on what parts those are. But I always felt like Opera's problem wasn't bloat so much as it was being underbaked on so many features as just lept from new feature to new feature in a "first post" kind of way. Innovation is important and some will recognize the value in that. But refining those innovations into a slick and mature package is also sexy as hell. How badass would the speeddial be if you could customize it with your own image choices? It seems like the Speed Dial has had more repeat attention than any other feature and it still feels more barebones than it should be. Considering how much territory they have to cover to get to feature Opera 12, I hope they don't stop when something is good enough but push through to when it is badass. Certainly better than what some Chrome extension author can whip up. quote:I may be really strange but I use the ridiculous number of tabs I can have open in place of bookmarks, and in place of speeddial. I have maybe fewer than 10 bookmarks. If I want to come back to something I just leave it open in a tab. There just isn't really an instance of something I want to come back to later, but not regularly enough to keep in a tab. I use keywords for a few things and I use custom searches heavily though. Custom searches being bugged in whatever version of Chrome I tried last year was the main reason I gave up on it quickly. For a time I tried one of those "read it later" extensions but found that if I went too long without reading a thing to the point I was stashing it, I just accept that I never will and close it. I feel decently confident that keywords will come back. One of these opvard tweets suggests that he personally uses it heavily. I've got all three categories filled myself. I use a ton of open tabs (guessing three dozen) as separate workspaces and reminders of things I want to do in the near term. I've got about 30 speed dials which are a mixture of ultra frequent website destinations and as a wandering path of a half dozen websites I'll hit in a row once a day. Bookmarks are too fiddly for that when I can just open a new tab and get inspired to check stuff out. I also refresh them as a kind of visual RSS feed to see if they have a new front page which is kind of nice. And then an unreasonable amount of bookmarked pages, almost all resources because I never remember to check a bookmark to read a specific thing later. I'm curious to see if the stash can break my own habit of actually using "check later" URL collections or if it will suffer the same fate as my bookmarked "interesting article" folder which I learned not to use as an open tab is the only sure measure I'll read that article. My big feature may turnout to be the custom right click menus/searches and the Links and Windows Panels. They're so baked into my workflow they were the biggest obstacle in transitioning to Chrome or FF and subsequently the biggest hurdle to really using Opera 15.
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May 30, 2013 01:17
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