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Darko posted:Getting a guy that consistently writes sexist "empowered" women (even messing up Ripley, who is one of the best examples in cinema, period in the first three films) to write a woman that is the symbol of female empowerment? Wooboy, glad that didn't work out at all. Not to defend an abomination but he didn't exactly write it. He wrote many, many versions that the studio continually hosed with, most importantly that he never wanted Ripley back at all. He wanted a clone of Newt. He should have just walked away from the whole thing (like Kevin Smith did with Routh Superman) but he wanted to show that he could stick out a project. Writing a part for a cloned Newt and then jamming Ripley into the part is not exactly a recipe for success. My point that WB Come to think of it the reason I like Whedon is because I hate so many other peoples work. When the rest of the movie industry can't put a woman in anything but clothing scraps as rape victims he looks great. There is a lot I hate about what JW does.(Building up characters just to kill them off)
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Jun 21, 2013 15:08
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Neil McCauley posted:He should have just walked away from the whole thing (like Kevin Smith did with Routh Superman) To be fair, Kevin Smith didn't walk away from Routh Superman. He was let go from the Superman Lives project once Tim Burton and Nic Cage signed on. Burton apparently wanted to have his own writers take a shot at the script. Even Smith says this when he tells the story. He says he was a bit annoyed by it, but okay with it because it was such a strange process that got him some awesome stories about a crazy person (Jon Peters).
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Jun 21, 2013 15:14
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Neil McCauley posted:Not to defend an abomination but he didn't exactly write it. He wrote many, many versions that the studio continually hosed with, most importantly that he never wanted Ripley back at all. He wanted a clone of Newt. He should have just walked away from the whole thing (like Kevin Smith did with Routh Superman) but he wanted to show that he could stick out a project. Writing a part for a cloned Newt and then jamming Ripley into the part is not exactly a recipe for success. I'm going by his first draft. Which was mostly a John Woo film with Aliens (while still being Serenity with Aliens), and Ripley being River and being more obviously superpowered, but still being relegated to a more supporting role as the bro-hijinks of the larger crew took more precedence.
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Jun 21, 2013 15:22
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thrawn527 posted:I go back and forth on RedLetterMedia reviews, but their review for Man of Steel was straight up terrible. All the complaints came from a place of, "This isn't what a Superman movie should be." They couldn't get over what they thought the movie should do to try and view what the movie was actually doing. I agreed with pretty much everything they said, but then again, I also hated the movie v  v
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Jun 21, 2013 15:33
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thrawn527 posted:To be fair, Kevin Smith didn't walk away from Routh Superman. He was let go from the Superman Lives project once Tim Burton and Nic Cage signed on. Burton apparently wanted to have his own writers take a shot at the script. Even Smith says this when he tells the story. He says he was a bit annoyed by it, but okay with it because it was such a strange process that got him some awesome stories about a crazy person (Jon Peters). Kevin Smith has told the Superman Lives story a thousand times, and it's hysterical every time. They demanded no cape, no flight, and that he has to fight a mechanical spider in the third act. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk
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Jun 21, 2013 15:40
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I agreed with pretty much everything they said, but then again, I also hated the movie v It's not really about agreeing or disagreeing, but how they approached their criticism. For instance, their criticism of the prequels were how particular storytelling elements failed in THEMSELVES. They were good deconstructions for that reason. Most of their Star Trek reviews were "they don't act like they do in the show," which is only a singular level of criticism, but not something to base 75% of your deconstruction off of.
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Jun 21, 2013 15:42
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I agreed with pretty much everything they said, but then again, I also hated the movie v Me too! For me, all their grievances were legitimate: all the plot holes, Lois being in places because the plot demanded she be there etc. I liked it more than them though, at least the fighting was good! Though the last battle was dumb. I was expecting some kind of ingenious twist as to how Superman would beat the more experienced, more powerful General. But no he just snapped his neck. Lame.
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Jun 21, 2013 15:44
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teagone posted:The only decent criticism they made was the whole "display of excess", but even then there was hardly any insight put behind it. The rest was basically every review I've read put together in video form that complains about the film not being a proper Superman movie, which is a hollow way to judge the film. They even spend a few minutes exclaiming how out of place John Williams' score would be. No poo poo it'd be out of place It's also weird that they mocked the people who were upset over (Iron Man 3 spoilers) the Mandarin reveal because they thought it was a clever twist that did away with the obvious yet they couldn't get over the fact that this wasn't an obvious Superman movie. I didn't hate their review but they got caught up on things too much and really didn't offer anything insightful.
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Jun 21, 2013 15:46
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They give way more insightful comments on their Hangover 3/After Earth review in comparison, and I'm not sure why.
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Alan_Shore posted:Me too! For me, all their grievances were legitimate: all the plot holes, Lois being in places because the plot demanded she be there etc. I liked it more than them though, at least the fighting was good! Though the last battle was dumb. I was expecting some kind of ingenious twist as to how Superman would beat the more experienced, more powerful General. But no he just snapped his neck. Lame. No lie, when he let out that obnoxious scream after snapping Zod's neck, that got an audible laugh from me in the theater. Like, honestly, who thought the neck snapping was a good idea in the first place? And then once it was locked in, they just had to go the extra mile and give us that goofy Superman scream, showing that Superman was remorseful and he doesn't want to kill anyone and just wants to protect Earth and its inhabitants, even though that was a big plot point during most of the movie and we were already fed that idea several times throughout the course of it  But, you know, in general, audiences are dumb and need everything explained to them multiple times over.
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Jun 21, 2013 15:52
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And when he sank into those skulls screaming "noooo!" So bad.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:01
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:No lie, when he let out that obnoxious scream after snapping Zod's neck, that got an audible laugh from me in the theater. http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/content/man-steel-ending-superman-kills-zod
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Jun 21, 2013 16:06
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Alan_Shore posted:Me too! For me, all their grievances were legitimate: all the plot holes Such as?
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Jun 21, 2013 16:08
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:No lie, when he let out that obnoxious scream after snapping Zod's neck, that got an audible laugh from me in the theater. Well, you didn't really understand the scream, so maybe you're right about the dumb audience bit.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:11
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It seems a lot of people missed this, but the reason that Lois is brought on board Zod's ship is to gather information about Superman, which they immediately use. Remember, they go straight to the Kent's house after getting the information from Lois, where they find superman's baby pod.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:18
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David Goyer posted:And I think it's a shocking ending. I've seen the film four times with an audience, and everyone gasps at the ending. They don't see it coming, and I think it makes some people feel uncomfortable, other people say 'right on,' but that was the point If by "makes some people feel uncomfortable" he means "makes some people feel like that was a terrible loving way to end a Superman movie", then yeah, I guess he accomplished what he set out to do  porfiria posted:Well, you didn't really understand the scream, so maybe you're right about the dumb audience bit. So after killing Zod, you're saying that Superman screamed for reasons other than being remorseful and not wanting to kill and just wanting to protect Earth and its inhabitants? Do explain  Yoshifan823 posted:They say that because they feel uncomfortable with what Superman did. You don't say  Rageaholic fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jun 21, 2013 |
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Jun 21, 2013 16:18
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:If by "makes some people feel uncomfortable" he means "makes some people feel like that was a terrible loving way to end a Superman movie", then yeah, I guess he accomplished what he set out to do They say that because they feel uncomfortable with what Superman did.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:19
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:So after killing Zod, you're saying that Superman screamed for reasons other than being remorseful and not wanting to kill and just wanting to protect Earth and its inhabitants? Yeah...there were a lot of conflicting internal emotions there that caused the anguish.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:30
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:
Well first off (and Snyder literally says this in the interview) he's screaming not just because he's killed someone, but because he just wiped out his species--Superman is now Alone in the universe. The scream denotes the central place of this act in the movie's narrative. I agree with SMG about Krypton being a future post-singularity decadent Earth, but Zod's Kryptonians also arguably represent sort of polytheistic Gods; they're almighty, but they're in it for themselves. This is why the Superman/Jesus comparisons aren't just facile analogies: Superman really is better than us, but he's a benevolent God in the New Testament mold. He's been made flesh in order to provide mankind "an ideal to strive for"--we'll never get there of course, but that's not the point. But the flipside of that is, because he's incarnate, Superman has to suffer. And the first manifestation of that is that he's always alone. There's no one like him, how could there be?
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Jun 21, 2013 16:36
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The way the movie presents it, though, Superman should have no reason to feel that Zod was one of his own. So it doesn't seem like the post-kill scream should reflect that. Superman always being alone makes more sense. To me, it makes more sense that he feels bad about the act of killing than about who he killed, because that's the only time he's done it and it's against his code. Either way, the idea of Superman killing anyone is dumb. Is it a unique take on Superman? Well, maybe. But that doesn't make it cool or make me appreciate it any more. Rageaholic fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Jun 21, 2013 |
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Jun 21, 2013 16:48
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:No lie, when he let out that obnoxious scream after snapping Zod's neck, that got an audible laugh from me in the theater. You're awesome. quote:But, you know, in general, audiences are dumb and need everything explained to them multiple times over. drat, tell it like it is.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:51
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Superman rejected old Krypton and that final act broke the connection between him and the old, completely. It then brought out all the built up emotion over the years about that at once, and that emotional rise will probably cement him not killing in the future.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:52
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:The way the movie presents it, though, Superman should have no reason to feel that Zod was one of his own. So it doesn't seem like the post-kill scream should reflect that. Superman always being alone makes more sense. To me, it makes more sense that he feels bad about the act of killing than about who he killed, because that's the only time he's done it and it's against his code. Zod's a dick, but he's literally the only other being on Earth who understands what it's like to see people's vascular systems all the time. He's Superman's last connection to his people. You don't think severing that link forever would be traumatic? The whole point is that this moment represents the creation of Superman's moral code--how could something be against it before it exists? Also, and I know this has been repeated ad nauseam, but Superman kills people all the time in his various incarnations. So it's hardly unique.
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Jun 21, 2013 16:58
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:Either way, the idea of Superman killing anyone is dumb. Is it a unique take on Superman? Well, maybe. But that doesn't make it cool or make me appreciate it any more. Seriously dude, don't be an idiot. Or was Superman killing Zod in Superman II dumb? Or was Superman killing the Anti Monitor dumb? Or was Superman basically killing Darkseid (more than once across a few continuities) dumb? Or was Superman killing Doomsday dumb? There are some things that can't be stopped by Superman alone. And that's what he was in the movie-alone. How could he stop Zod from killing all those people? Zod could keep the fight going where ever he wanted and there wasn't a whole lot of options to stopping heat vision blitzing. Can't use the Phantom Zone, the only way to open it is destroyed. Can't rejigger the re-breathers, partly because I'm PRETTY sure they were all destroyed, and partly because why the gently caress would he know how to do that? How could Superman stop Zod in this situation, without killing him? That wouldn't be contrived as hell.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:01
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thrawn527 posted:To be fair, Kevin Smith didn't walk away from Routh Superman. He was let go from the Superman Lives project once Tim Burton and Nic Cage signed on. Burton apparently wanted to have his own writers take a shot at the script. Even Smith says this when he tells the story. He says he was a bit annoyed by it, but okay with it because it was such a strange process that got him some awesome stories about a crazy person (Jon Peters). Didn't Jon Peters produce this one too?
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Jun 21, 2013 17:12
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Eh, I guess I see what you guys are saying, but the way it was presented didn't do anything for me. When it came to that scene, I wasn't thinking "oh, logically he'll have to kill him to end this." The whole movie just left a bad taste in my mouth, and that scene is a prime example why. My first real exposure to Superman as a kid was the animated series that ran from the mid to late 90s. I loved that show, and that's still the gold standard to which I hold Superman to this day. Maybe that's a bad thing, but yeah, neither Superman Returns nor Man of Steel held a candle to the animated series for me, and I suppose that would be okay if they were still good movies, but I didn't think they were.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:12
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:The way the movie presents it, though, Superman should have no reason to feel that Zod was one of his own. So it doesn't seem like the post-kill scream should reflect that. Superman always being alone makes more sense. To me, it makes more sense that he feels bad about the act of killing than about who he killed, because that's the only time he's done it and it's against his code. You really can't understand any concept of someone feeling even a bit of sadness or grief over being forced to destroy the last of their own kind, no matter how justified the act might've been? Let alone the general cathartic release of emotion from everything that had come before that he hadn't had time to process and just caught up to him like a dozen freight trains after it was all finally over? Sorry it didn't work for you but the moment is only as dumb as the viewer is unwilling to engage the narrative that produces it.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:14
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Darko posted:Superman rejected old Krypton and that final act broke the connection between him and the old, completely. It then brought out all the built up emotion over the years about that at once, and that emotional rise will probably cement him not killing in the future. I didn't care about him killing, because I never felt at any point Superman was incapable of that, or that he valued life that highly. He seemed like a regular American in a suit, and killing Zod felt like it was something he would be ok with, not the other way around. Then he does the scream thing, but it's kinda hollow and not earned really. "So now you care? Ok..." Also Lois shows up out of nowhere. That took me out of it. No way possible she could be there. McSpanky posted:You really can't understand any concept of someone feeling even a bit of sadness or grief over being forced to destroy the last of their own kind, no matter how justified the act might've been? So sending him to the PZ is different? With no chance of getting out he might as well be dead.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:15
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Well sending him to the Phantom Zone would be a HELL of a lot less personal than physically breaking his neck with his bare hands. Wee bit of a difference.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:20
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Spoilers here...are we still warning about spoilers? I thought of the scream as just all the post-fight emotions, adrenaline crashing down AND he just killed the last of his species. That seems good enough reason to scream. Hell you see UFC, trained fighters, screaming after matches because they're so hyped up, why not Superman. Didn't seem goofy to me, just immediately expressed the huge amount of remorse he immediately felt. Also, from what I can tell by the story, this was literally the first time Clark ever fought at all. He spent his life avoiding it and now at age 33 he's in his first fight...with super powered aliens trying to destroy the planet.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:25
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Burkion posted:Well sending him to the Phantom Zone would be a HELL of a lot less personal than physically breaking his neck with his bare hands. Felt the same in the movie to me. I wasn't surprised or felt sad. PZ vs death 
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Jun 21, 2013 17:26
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Burkion posted:Well sending him to the Phantom Zone would be a HELL of a lot less personal than physically breaking his neck with his bare hands. Yeah, not to mention the small consolation, however implausible, that either some lost Kryptonian tech or human science might one day unlock the Phantom Zone and they aren't really gone forever. Not so much with the actual outcome. It's funny, my young formative experiences with Superman were an eclectic mix of the Fleischer shorts, the 50s George Reeves series in reruns, Lois & Clark, the Donner films, the 90s animated series, and a smattering of comics along the way, so I guess I don't have as much of a problem letting new versions "make their arguments" for inclusion in that melting pot of decades-long identity behind the S-shield. Goyer was totally right about the difference between some people being able to leave their superbaggage behind and some not, but it seems that age didn't have as much to do with it.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:30
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PaganGoatPants posted:Felt the same in the movie to me. I wasn't surprised or felt sad. PZ vs death It doesn't really matter how it feels to you, in the way you describe. It matters that either some other people crash a jet into a thing that sucks up all of the Kryptonians outside of Superman, putting distance between him and the action, OR Superman straight up *SNAPS SOME ONE'S NECK*. In his first (third?) real fight. There's a hell of a difference between witnessing your fellows effectively be locked away for ever and ever, and breaking another man's neck ending his life with your bare goddamn hands. I'm sorry if the scene didn't work for you, but that doesn't change the massive difference between the two options.
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Jun 21, 2013 17:56
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Uncle Wemus posted:Didn't Jon Peters produce this one too? In name only. He's going to get a producer credit on every Superman film made until he dies.
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Jun 21, 2013 18:14
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Uncle Wemus posted:Didn't Jon Peters produce this one too? He's listed as executive producer and is probably the reason why the World Engine sequence is the way it is.
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Jun 21, 2013 18:16
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PaganGoatPants posted:Also Lois shows up out of nowhere. That took me out of it. No way possible she could be there. Why not? It isn't like she couldn't follow the path of destruction to find him, or that it is impossible that they looped back around and were coming back to the starting point when the fight ended and she didn't have all that far to run.
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Jun 21, 2013 19:00
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Thwomp posted:He's listed as executive producer and is probably the reason why the World Engine sequence is the way it is. No, he had no creative input at all.
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Jun 21, 2013 19:04
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Wade Wilson posted:Why not? It isn't like she couldn't follow the path of destruction to find him, or that it is impossible that they looped back around and were coming back to the starting point when the fight ended and she didn't have all that far to run. In a big city like that it just didn't make any sense for her to be able to just jog her way over there while they were fighting while flying. The city is in destruction, people are panicking, debris everywhere and she just casually finds where way over there? A little too far fetched for me. A nitpick, but with a serious tone they are going for I'd rather have him be in agony and tears by himself, and the next scene maybe have him fly over to her and cry in her arms.
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Jun 21, 2013 19:14
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teagone posted:RedLetterMedia's review comes off the same way. Usually they give a bit of insight with their critiques, but their Man of Steel review was just whining and complaining for the whole segment. Rich Evans believes Superman is a power fantasy for nine-year-olds and should be a children's movie, but most kids don't care about whitebread 1958 Superman. The RedLetterMedia guys kind of come off as too cool for the room to accept a realistic portrayal. The movie's plot holes weren't any larger than those in other popular comic book films. By the way, Superman didn't call Zod a motherfucker. He said "You think you can threaten my mother". It kind of felt like they crossed their arms and tuned out because they viewed the movie as a cynical Hollywood modernization of a kids' cartoon character. Watching their review enlightened me as to why some people hate the film so much. My exposure to Superman was a mix of the Reeve films, Fleischer cartoons, and the 90s comics, so maybe that's why another portrayal doesn't bother me. PaganGoatPants posted:I didn't care about him killing, because I never felt at any point Superman was incapable of that, or that he valued life that highly. He seemed like a regular American in a suit, and killing Zod felt like it was something he would be ok with, not the other way around. Then he does the scream thing, but it's kinda hollow and not earned really. "So now you care? Ok..." He had been holding back his powers his whole life and avoided beating up the bully in the bar, so killing someone was the farthest he had gone. It was also the death of the last of his kind. I don't know, the scene just worked for me.
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Jun 21, 2013 19:31
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PaganGoatPants posted:In a big city like that it just didn't make any sense for her to be able to just jog her way over there while they were fighting while flying. She got picked up by a rescue helicopter and demanded to be let off at that building when she saw Superman and Zod crash into it.
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Jun 21, 2013 19:32
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From the RLM review comments for MoS-FlipFlop posted:I loved Clark of Steel. What everyone here seems to forget is that after all was said and done, Clark greatly contributed to the GPD of Metropolis. The destruction of Metropolis, and the rebuilt effort that will undoubtedly follow, will create thousands of real-estate related jobs that will in turn give a huge economic boost to the city. Those who managed to survive will surely end up with a new house/apartment, and I bet that even the most staunch critics of this movie can't deny that this is a good thing. FlipFlop Naes posted:BTW you shouldn't be mad. This is the best take on the film I've seen so far.
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