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Kyrosiris posted:Meaning you get to take your favorites, instead of who you mechanically were required to or was the best to due to stat differences/ability differences/etc., which is (IMHO) a very good thing. It also really trivialized characters leaving the party in terms of gameplay. Whoops, Cloud left your group? Good thing you can slap all that materia on Cid and have him function basically the same! Aeris died? Slot that poo poo into another party member's gear and you're set. Allowing players to come up with a party configuration they like can be accomplished in ways other than making characters walking coat racks that are all functionally identical. It's probably, come to think of it, a consequence of how you only get three party slots and for several chunks of the game, you only get to choose one, as much as anything else. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 11:02
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I always felt the party member convergence/divergence aspect was handled best by FFX, because a) they only converged at the end of the game and b) since you have the ability to swap people in/out of fights, you're not missing anything by going with a particular party since you're basically using everyone. I think that's also why I didn't mind the convergence in FFVI, either, since there are so many scenarios in which you have to use more than four party members.
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Jul 29, 2013 16:10
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Defiance Industries posted:It also really trivialized characters leaving the party in terms of gameplay. Whoops, Cloud left your group? Good thing you can slap all that materia on Cid and have him function basically the same! Aeris died? Slot that poo poo into another party member's gear and you're set. Allowing players to come up with a party configuration they like can be accomplished in ways other than making characters walking coat racks that are all functionally identical. It's probably, come to think of it, a consequence of how you only get three party slots and for several chunks of the game, you only get to choose one, as much as anything else. IX and, dare I say it, XIII handled it fairly well - you had fairly fixed parties, but usually you had at least one healer each with their own advantages and disadvantages, and the times that you don't you have some sort of support system or Potions were still useful. Even when you get to pick your party everyone had their own strengths - Eiko had better healing but Dagger better stats, Lightning casts faster but Vanille and Hope have Curasa/Curaga, etc. For all the problems XIII had they at least made every character unique and useful throughout the game, which is more than can be said for characters like Kimahri. I like having 'fixed' characters and having to work with limitations and strengths.
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Jul 29, 2013 16:49
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Defiance Industries posted:It also really trivialized characters leaving the party in terms of gameplay. Whoops, Cloud left your group? Good thing you can slap all that materia on Cid and have him function basically the same! Aeris died? Slot that poo poo into another party member's gear and you're set. Allowing players to come up with a party configuration they like can be accomplished in ways other than making characters walking coat racks that are all functionally identical. It's probably, come to think of it, a consequence of how you only get three party slots and for several chunks of the game, you only get to choose one, as much as anything else. Choice of weapons and individual limit breaks really distinguished the characters from each other. Aerith had possibly the best limit breaks which made losing her suck hard if you had been utilizing her fully up to that point, Cid & Barret had the most damaging limit breaks, Cid & Cloud had access to 3x AP weapons etc.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:10
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heiden posted:Choice of weapons and individual limit breaks really distinguished the characters from each other. Aerith had possibly the best limit breaks which made losing her suck hard if you had been utilizing her fully up to that point, Cid & Barret had the most damaging limit breaks, Cid & Cloud had access to 3x AP weapons etc. Yuffie has a pretty absurd limit break and its a level 3. Her level 4 is, of course, dreadfully bad.
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Jul 29, 2013 17:17
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Barudak posted:Yuffie has a pretty absurd limit break and its a level 3. Her level 4 is, of course, dreadfully bad. That reminds me how very obscure the poo poo you could steal was in FFVII. I remember stealing a lovely weapon for Yuffie off of one of the weapons walking towards Midgar (?).
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Jul 29, 2013 18:37
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heiden posted:That reminds me how very obscure the poo poo you could steal was in FFVII. I remember stealing a lovely weapon for Yuffie off of one of the weapons walking towards Midgar (?). lovely? That weapon was a godsend for trying to Morph Unknowns into stat sources.
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Jul 29, 2013 19:43
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heiden posted:That reminds me how very obscure the poo poo you could steal was in FFVII. I remember stealing a lovely weapon for Yuffie off of one of the weapons walking towards Midgar (?). Yuffie's Conformer is the best ultimate weapon in the game because of the fact that it has no requirements to reaching its highest attack power and that it can Morph without a damage penalty.
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Jul 29, 2013 19:51
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heiden posted:Choice of weapons and individual limit breaks really distinguished the characters from each other. Aerith had possibly the best limit breaks which made losing her suck hard if you had been utilizing her fully up to that point, Cid & Barret had the most damaging limit breaks, Cid & Cloud had access to 3x AP weapons etc. Weapons are a lot like the characters. Occasionally a special function pops up in the form of AP growth bonuses, and at the end you have an ultimate weapon that actually functions differently, but for the most part they're just a steadily rising amount of attack power and materia slots. For the most part, you can slot any character any way that you want and it makes no difference because you'll play them the same way as you would any character with that loadout. That's why the system trivializes character differences in gameplay, because I don't have to give any fucks when Aeris leaves since I can throw all her poo poo on someone else and keep trucking along. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 20:00
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:lovely? That weapon was a godsend for trying to Morph Unknowns into stat sources. O wow, I didn't do any of that since the game doesn't have any superhard bosses that require going to such lengths, but that's interesting to know.
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Jul 29, 2013 20:03
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Edit: nevermind, old news. Carry on!
MarioTeachesWiping fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jul 29, 2013 |
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Jul 29, 2013 21:22
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Defiance Industries posted:It also really trivialized characters leaving the party in terms of gameplay. Whoops, Cloud left your group? Good thing you can slap all that materia on Cid and have him function basically the same! Aeris died? Slot that poo poo into another party member's gear and you're set. Allowing players to come up with a party configuration they like can be accomplished in ways other than making characters walking coat racks that are all functionally identical. It's probably, come to think of it, a consequence of how you only get three party slots and for several chunks of the game, you only get to choose one, as much as anything else. This really bothered me about FFVIII, too; in fact, they made it so there was an easy shortcut in the menu to do exactly what you're describing. IX is an example of the opposite done well: even though every character is distinct, and some are better at some things than other characters are, you'll still see people disagreeing about what the best party configuration is. Some people like to roll Zidane, Garnet, Vivi, and Steiner, for that classic combination. Some people take Freya along, because they like her Dragon skills. Amarant can do some beautiful things if you have the patience to level up the last dude who joins you, and Quina is a monster if you get all his/her Blue Magic. I guess the "optimal" party for endgame is Zidane, Freya, Amarant, and Quina, but the difference in efficacy is small enough that you can not only use whatever characters you want, but doing so will net you a different gameplay experience than other players.
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Jul 29, 2013 21:49
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Harrow posted:I guess the "optimal" party for endgame is Zidane, Freya, Amarant, and Quina, but the difference in efficacy is small enough that you can not only use whatever characters you want, but doing so will net you a different gameplay experience than other players. Nah, the optimal loadout definitely includes Vivi with Reflect x2 and everyone with Auto-Reflect equipped. Reflect 9999 Bios on everything (except Ozma).
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Jul 29, 2013 22:20
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The White Dragon posted:Nah, the optimal loadout definitely includes Vivi with Reflect x2 and everyone with Auto-Reflect equipped. Reflect 9999 Bios on everything (except Ozma). That's right: Vivi is so excellent that the entire rest of the party is only there as a magic amplifier.
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Jul 30, 2013 00:07
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heiden posted:That reminds me how very obscure the poo poo you could steal was in FFVII. I remember stealing a lovely weapon for Yuffie off of one of the weapons walking towards Midgar (?). The weapon in question is the Rising Sun. It is notable for one thing, namely being one of the few double-growth weapons with a vaguely decent attack power. Cid has the other two, which are a little weaker than Rising Sun but stronger than the wimpy double-growth weapons everyone else is stuck with ... but he and Cloud also have triple-growth weapons which have even better attack power - not to mention, ya know, triple-growth. In terms of strict attack power, yes, it's lovely. Especially considering you can get ... Pyroxene Stigma posted:lovely? That weapon was a godsend for trying to Morph Unknowns into stat sources. Azure_Horizon posted:Yuffie's Conformer is the best ultimate weapon in the game because of the fact that it has no requirements to reaching its highest attack power and that it can Morph without a damage penalty. ... the Conformer, her ultimate weapon, earlier than that. It is indeed awesome, for reasons already described. Its one drawback (well, besides the zero-growth of all ultimate weapons) is that it is sometimes confused for the Rising Sun by forums posters. 
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Jul 30, 2013 00:10
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The White Dragon posted:Nah, the optimal loadout definitely includes Vivi with Reflect x2 and everyone with Auto-Reflect equipped. Reflect 9999 Bios on everything (except Ozma).
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Jul 30, 2013 00:26
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heiden posted:O wow, I didn't do any of that since the game doesn't have any superhard bosses that require going to such lengths, but that's interesting to know. I mostly used it for morphing cactaurs.
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Jul 30, 2013 01:25
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To better describe how much of a creep Toriyama is, I've brought this picture with me here today.
Calaveron fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 03:32
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Toriyama wrote the Honeybee Inn scenes in FFVII. That should tell us everything we need to know about him.
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Jul 30, 2013 03:56
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Toriyama delenda est.
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Jul 30, 2013 04:13
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Personally I've already written off the plot of FFXIII: Lightning Returns, so I just find it funny how Toriyama is in love with Lightning. I still hope he never gets work again after XIII, though.
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Jul 30, 2013 04:15
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Calaveron posted:To better describe how much of a creep Toriyama is, I've brought this picture with me here today. The roses represent leaving everything unpruned, cutting it off from it's main roots, watering it down just to keep it alive a bit longer with minimal effort, then sticking it in a fancy case so it looks attractive. After a week's time they're dead and thrown away.
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Jul 30, 2013 04:18
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To be fair, the roses aren't the most important thing about the creep factor here, they only contribute to the whole package that is Toriyama.
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Jul 30, 2013 04:24
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WendigoJohnson posted:The roses represent leaving everything unpruned, cutting it off from it's main roots, watering it down just to keep it alive a bit longer with minimal effort, then sticking it in a fancy case so it looks attractive. After a week's time they're dead and thrown away. That's a pretty accurate analogy.
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Jul 30, 2013 08:10
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Captain Vittles posted:Toriyama wrote the Honeybee Inn scenes in FFVII. That should tell us everything we need to know about him. You talk like Honey Bee Inn wasn't great which is rather silly.
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Jul 30, 2013 09:29
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Kanfy posted:You talk like Honey Bee Inn wasn't great which is rather silly.
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Jul 30, 2013 09:32
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The White Dragon posted:When you find out that Toriyama wrote it, it's very depressing because you realize that he didn't mean for it to be silly at all. To give him very minor bits of credit, Toriyama clearly considers at least some of the poo poo he does to be "in good fun" or lighthearted. It's just that he's one of those guys who happens to have a really creepy-rear end sense of humor and no sort of self-censor. He's the Japanese version of that guy. You know, the one who thinks the pen he bought with a lady inside whose clothes fall off is the funniest thing ever and who will insist on showing it to everyone. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:49 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 09:47
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Kanfy posted:You talk like Honey Bee Inn wasn't great which is rather silly. There were a lot of things cut from the Honeybee Inn, such as someone claiming to have a pair of Tifa's underwear. When you buy it off him, it goes in your Key Items list with a description saying that is has a childlike pattern on it. They belong to Marlene. gently caress this guy, seriously.
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Jul 30, 2013 11:10
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Considering I have loved everything I've heard Sakaguchi directed, would it be too much to just ask if Square could beg him to come back to save their flagship game series? It could even be like that Making of Revengeance video where Kojima's employee's grovel before the camera and admit to their failure and how Platinum saved the game.
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Jul 30, 2013 11:25
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Gologle posted:Considering I have loved everything I've heard Sakaguchi directed, would it be too much to just ask if Square could beg him to come back to save their flagship game series? It could even be like that Making of Revengeance video where Kojima's employee's grovel before the camera and admit to their failure and how Platinum saved the game. Sakaguchi leaving as the creative head of the company and Kitase basically taking over is the worst thing that happened to Square. Shows what one expensive misstep (Spirits Within) can do to a company. Without Sakaguchi, Square would have never been as successful and some of their best games never existed. It's sad really. What's sadder is that a lot of seemingly talented guys still seem to work at Square, but either do some mobile stuff or nothing at all. Instead we get Nomura, Toryiama and Tabata seemingly doing everything. On that note, what did they do to Itou?
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Jul 30, 2013 11:37
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Now I can never think about Toriyama without thinking about this article. It's fake, since people will ask.
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Jul 30, 2013 12:55
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Harrow posted:This really bothered me about FFVIII, too; in fact, they made it so there was an easy shortcut in the menu to do exactly what you're describing. 'Best' party would technically be Zidane/Freya/Quina/Eiko, since the first three can get guaranteed 9999s and Eiko is plenty strong in her own right and has Phoenix, Dispel, Esuna and Full-Life. I know people say Dagger is the better Summoner, but I always found Eiko to be better because almost nothing resists Holy anyway (the only ones that really do are the Friendly Monsters) and Madeen doesn't need gems to power up. Vivi hits all the elements Dagger does so the only real reason Dagger's a better choice mechanically is her better equipment selection (particularly the Stardust Rod) and stats. But really all the characters merit placements in their own right. I tend not to use Amarant and Quina because the former can't get easy 9999s like the other melees and Quina has terrible Spirit and Frog Drop takes forever to level, but I've used them endgame before with no real detriments.
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Jul 30, 2013 13:32
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I'm like 15 pages behind, but I recently restarted XIII and am really enjoying it so far. I think mostly because I do chores while the cut scenes play. I mean, the combat is awesome, even if you know exactly how to beat certain enemy groups it's still fairly engaging. The on-rails aspect doesn't bother me so much the 2nd time through (never finished it the first time) because I have very little expectation of exploration freedom. But again, the cut scenes...the VAs are bad (I mean, they sound good, but everyone except for Sazh's mood and cadence seem constantly off), and the pacing is even worse. There are tons of awkward pauses or "hmms" for no apparent reason. They just don't act like actual humans, really, ever, except for Sazh in some spots. The scenes and VA acting in the original Disgaea is like worlds ahead of this, and that game is from...2004? It just boggles my mind that a game with out-of-this-world production value botches something that is responsible for delivering over 50% of the story. I find myself wandering around doing laundry and checking my phone and then just reading the Datalog afterward.
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Jul 30, 2013 14:18
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Pringles_School posted:On that note, what did they do to Itou? Cursory Google search came up with nothing at all of late. That's odd. In a similar note, did Matsuno actually suffer a nervous breakdown while making Final Fantasy XII, or was that some sort of cover story? Or did I make it up?
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Jul 30, 2013 14:47
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ApplesandOranges posted:'Best' party would technically be Zidane/Freya/Quina/Eiko, since the first three can get guaranteed 9999s and Eiko is plenty strong in her own right and has Phoenix, Dispel, Esuna and Full-Life. See, look at all these best parties--and then people using parties that aren't that and still having a great time. That's how much FFIX rules. Even though Eiko is by far the better healer than Garnet (and probably about as good of a summoner) I still never use her, just because I like Garnet as a character. I tend to roll Zidane, Garnet, Vivi, and either Freya or Steiner, depending on if I want guaranteed 9999s from Freya or Magic Sword from Steiner. One time I put Amarant in instead of Vivi for the final dungeon and found him surprisingly effective, too.
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Jul 30, 2013 14:49
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Strenuous Manflurry posted:In a similar note, did Matsuno actually suffer a nervous breakdown while making Final Fantasy XII, or was that some sort of cover story? Or did I make it up? Eh, nobody knows exactly. He didn't take it well though that Sakaguchi left/the entire trouble around it. Sakaguchi was the reason he was there in the first place. About Itou. I know he provided the original concept for Guardian Cross and gave a bit of commentary on Dissidia. Apart from that I always wonder what he was up to after finishing XII:ZJS.
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Jul 30, 2013 14:54
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Pringles_School posted:Eh, nobody knows exactly. He didn't take it well though that Sakaguchi left/the entire trouble around it. Sakaguchi was the reason he was there in the first place. "I MADE IVALICE FOR YOU. FOR YOU. We were going to bring balance to Final Fantasy, not leave it in darkness!" And then Vaan and Penelo were made.
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Jul 30, 2013 15:06
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The first time I ever defeated Necron, Quina held him off solo for five turns with Auto-Life before managing to sneak a Limit Glove in and finish the fight. Dude(?)'s a hero.
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Jul 30, 2013 15:11
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I just finished a playthrough of FFXIII and I liked the gameplay a lot more than I remembered and I've finally been able to put into words what I find so wrong about the narrative. Forgive me if this has all been said before but I've been musing over it for too long to not inflict it on this thread. FFXIII is a 3 act story without a Second and Third act. There's no development or arc for anything, from characters to setting to the actual plot. The Entire first Nine chapters of the game combine to form the First act. We're introduced to our characters (Ch 1), they are put on the path of adventure (Ch 2), come together (Ch 3 and 9), the villain is introduced and the BAD THING the protagonists must over come, AKA the set up/the point/the plot, is set up (Ch. 9). And after that nothing really happens narratively speaking. The game tries to act like Dysley being Bart is some big secret reveal but up until that point we've had no villain or threat for the heroes to over come. What should have been the 2nd Act twist is instead the start of the actual story. Then he flings you into the 5th Ark, where we learn the same things about the characters we learned every single chapter: They don't want to be pawns of the Fal'Cie or hurt any innocent people. Then they fight a guy who basically kills himself trying to convince the Heroes to not be pawns of the Fal'Cie or hurt any innocent people. Literally nothing of note happens other than they go to Pulse. Now, Pulse should be our act 2, right? Things get complicated, the heroes struggle and break under their responsibilities, things become their darkest before our heroes turn it around, right? No. want to know what happens on Gran Pulse? Nothing. Our heroes Land, decided to go to Fang's home town, go their, and then go back home. Well, that's not wholly true, they meet Bart again and he reveals that they're supposed to become a big monster and destroy Cocoon! Which is exactly what he told us in Chapter Nine. Then we're back in Eden and it's full on war, 5th Ark cracks open letting all sorts of pulse monsters and robots loose on the population. poo poo's going down, our heroes are....walking around headed somewhere. The Dude we fought on the ark has Some Dude shoot him in the head. Some Dude then complains about his and That Dude's idealism. This would be a great moment if we knew anything about either Dude but whatever. Our heroes then beat up Dude The Third in his dumb bullshit robot and then go and fight Bart and the real bad guys. So our heroes do just what the bad guys by beating them anyway so what little characterization we have for basically the whole cast is made moot, but then Fang and Vanille become the big monster and save the day once God steps in and fixes everything (One wonders why God doesn't just put Cocoon down safely to spare Fang and Vanille an eternity of being a crystal pillar, but whatever). I've complained about FF12 having 4 hours of story spread over 30 hours but this is so much worse. The narrative takes 20 hours to get the basic set up going and then spends another 10 spinning it's wheels. You could literally cut out all of Pulse and most of the Battle at Eden and nothing in the Story would be changed. tl;dr: I'm  and FFXIII doesn't have a plot. It's got a set up and then an ending.
ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 16:20
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Yeah, Sakaguchi's The Last Story is basically everything final fantasy wants to be nowadays. I have no idea why the game's not all that popular. It's loving rad. The localization alone is light years better than XIII's. Actual jokes with comedic timing? And they're not awkward or forced? What a strange world we live in.
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