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TyroneGoldstein posted:Ive never understood the love affair with Earthbound. Completely overshadowed by other legendary games of the time... and it was sort of like Secret of Evermore, where you play for like 2 hours and then go what the f*** is this and go outside.
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Jul 30, 2013 05:27
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WendigoJohnson posted:The battle system is the same as any of the Dragon Quest games. And? It wasn't about that. It was about the charm and the dialogue. Every character is interesting to talk to because everyone has something bizarre, funny or interesting to say. The music is amazing, the trippy backgrounds, there's a lot more to it than just the combat. The gameplay is functional and doesn't hold up today but that doesn't make it bad or some kind of fluke. Silent Hill 2 has straight up lovely gameplay and it's regarded as a really awesome game by a lot of folks.
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Jul 30, 2013 05:30
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Taser Gator posted:They should make an alternate model, like the PS slim, give it a new name like Nintendo 7, drop the tablet, add in reverse compatibility with Wii games, add connectivity with 3DS, and create a better online account system. Then pretend it's a completely new console. Dropping the tablet would be a terrible idea because its the standard controller in the systems design. Imagine if the PS4 came out with a version that didnt support analog sticks a year later. You would end up with shitloads of already existing games that couldnt work, as well as throwing a curveball to all future games, either having to hastily retool the control schemes for games already in production or having to decide how they will handle two types of standard controllers for future games (they will only pick the simpler one). The Wii U already has backwards compatibility and 3DS connectivity (that almost nobody feels like using), but the online system desperately needs to be improved. Its still miles ahead of what the Wii had, but aside from Miiverse everything about it is just an inconvenient piece of poo poo.
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Jul 30, 2013 05:34
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Honestly, any solution that isn't a price drop, some games and a big marketing push making it clear what the Wii U is, is overly complicated and dumb.
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Jul 30, 2013 05:44
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Gutcruncher posted:Dropping the tablet would be a terrible idea because its the standard controller in the systems design. Imagine if the PS4 came out with a version that didnt support analog sticks a year later. You would end up with shitloads of already existing games that couldnt work, as well as throwing a curveball to all future games, either having to hastily retool the control schemes for games already in production or having to decide how they will handle two types of standard controllers for future games (they will only pick the simpler one). Using a normal controller instead of the gamepad is hardly in the same league as removing analog sticks. Beyond a few obvious examples like Warioware, I'm having trouble coming up with many games that just couldn't work with an alternate control scheme. Nintendo Land, maybe?
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Jul 30, 2013 05:48
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One and the Same posted:Using a normal controller instead of the gamepad is hardly in the same league as removing analog sticks. The issue isnt whether games would work better or worse, the issue is that they are made to use it in some fashion and removing it would one of two things 1: Nothing, since the game simply mirrors everything onto the gamepads screen 2: Completely break the game, since the game uses the touchscreen for some important gameplay purposes. Actually make that three things 3: The game doesnt use the screen for anything except for one stupid little thing where you have to touch something. This only happens once, but not doing prevents you from progressing. Its like removing analog sticks in the sense that there are games simply coded to use it. Some games let you use the Dpad instead, others use the Dpad for other things and having one but not both will break the game. This is of course the age of console patches so its certainly possible to patch every single game to have a no-pad mode, but how many companies do you really think would put forth that effort? Also theres the very obvious issue of removing the fancy controller just turning the Wii U into "just like the other guys except weaker." Whether or not you like the pad itself, its really the only thing it has to differentiate itself in any way thats positive.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:07
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boom boom boom posted:Honestly, any solution that isn't a price drop, some games and a big marketing push making it clear what the Wii U is, is overly complicated and dumb. Agreed. I've tossed some ideas at the wall about Wii U before including dropping the tablet (even though I like it) and it's really just like I said, tossing ideas at a wall. The Wii U needs more games, needs to cost less and needs to promote itself better. That's all. All it will take is a few killer apps to get people wanting one. I seriously have no idea why they haven't tried making a Wii Sports U game yet. Nintendoland is not Wii Sports U.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:11
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Gutcruncher posted:Also theres the very obvious issue of removing the fancy controller just turning the Wii U into "just like the other guys except weaker." Whether or not you like the pad itself, its really the only thing it has to differentiate itself in any way thats positive. At this point, I think most people have accepted that Nintendo consoles will forever be "like the other guys except weaker". They just don't want to pay 350 dollars for a system should have come out back in 2006.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:13
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Blazing Ownager posted:I think it's worth noting that Nintendo/fan typical response to the Wii U being underpowered is their focus on "fun" is starting to wear really, really thin. You act as if it wasn't a bullshit argument from the first time a fanboy came up with it. Bobnumerotres posted:And? It wasn't about that. It was about the charm and the dialogue. Every character is interesting to talk to because everyone has something bizarre, funny or interesting to say. The music is amazing, the trippy backgrounds, there's a lot more to it than just the combat. Oh, it wasn't? Well that comparison wasn't very good now was it? Paper Jam Dipper posted:Agreed. I've tossed some ideas at the wall about Wii U before including dropping the tablet (even though I like it) and it's really just like I said, tossing ideas at a wall. The Wii U needs more games, needs to cost less and needs to promote itself better. That's all. All it will take is a few killer apps to get people wanting one. I seriously have no idea why they haven't tried making a Wii Sports U game yet. Nintendoland is not Wii Sports U. Sports tend to require getting up and moving your arms. What sport requires you sit on your rear end and play with a touchscreen? Apart from Holo-chess? Hot off the heels of Asda and New Zealand, Australia is considering banning any console that is region locked. So say goodbye to another market, WiiU. http://aussie-gamer.com/news/australia-considers-banning-region-locked-game-consoles/ Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:14
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Fulchrum posted:Hot off the heels of Asda and New Zealand, Australia is considering banning any console that is region locked. So say goodbye to another market, WiiU. Please PLEASE let that happen. If an entire continent telling Nintendo that Region Locking is retarded doesn't convince them, nothing will.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:18
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Fulchrum posted:Oh, I had no idea Earthbound was actually a survival horror game that was intentionally crippling players abilities to play up how powerless an individual was against a world trying to kill them. It was if you didn't completely miss the point. quote:Please PLEASE let that happen. If an entire continent telling Nintendo that Region Locking is retarded doesn't convince them, nothing will.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:21
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Bobnumerotres posted:It was if you didn't completely miss the point.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:24
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Fulchrum posted:Oh, I had no idea Earthbound was actually a survival horror game that was intentionally crippling players abilities to play up how powerless an individual was against a world trying to kill them. This isn't actually true. SH2 has arguably stiff controls because it was a "horror game" on a console which meant it had to follow the template of Resident Evil. However, while it is true that RE1 and 2 are intentionally slow paced for tension, Silent Hill series in particular actually gives you a far faster running speed, the ability to strafe, quick turn around, very powerful melee attacks, etc. all of which can be performed very smoothly. It also had pretty nice camera control for a game of its kind. The intentionally "crippling" aspects of it boasted at the time were simply that the main character had a "run out of breath" animation and had a small variety of attacks compared to a brawler or shooter (and that James could stumble form running too much when playing on hard). The game's emotional impact would be unchanged if it had 1/4 of the enemies in each area as it does, many of which are only there because it's a video game. The actual combat is very simple and non-challenging, and in the hospital area in particular becomes more tedious than intense and outsays its welcome. Like Earthbound though, this is done because the game was sticking to what works for its genre. SH1/2 play like the ur-game of their genre with several refinements the same way Earthbound's combat sticks pretty close to the Dragon Quest formula with some extra touches. Incredible game just the same, just like others that are, arguably, almost held back by sticking to basics with their control system but stand out because of their depth in other areas of the narrative like Sanitarium, Planescape: Torment, Silent Hill 1, Earthbound, King's Field: The Ancient City, etc. They all reach a point where the main video game interaction, killing stuff, becomes secondary and the experience of the game's tone and atmosphere becomes something more. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:24
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Fulchrum posted:The claim was that sucky gameplay is excused because Silent Hill 2 had sucky gameplay. The difference being that Silent Hill 2's sucky gameplay is intentional, and appropriate for the genre. The same is not true of Earthbound. ATherefore, the comparison was terrible. The claim was that Silent Hill 2's sucky gameplay was excused because of the game's atmosphere and other qualities. Without the fantastic setting, it would be a pretty terrible game. If earthbound didn't have the great writing, the colorful settings and all the wacky weirdness, it would just be a forgettable dragon quest clone. I can definitely see someone thinking it was nothing to write home about if they played it using a translation guide for the essentials like items and "where do I go?"
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Jul 30, 2013 06:29
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Bobnumerotres posted:And? It wasn't about that. It was about the charm and the dialogue. Every character is interesting to talk to because everyone has something bizarre, funny or interesting to say. The music is amazing, the trippy backgrounds, there's a lot more to it than just the combat. Yeah the argument doesn't hold that much water. The old Lucas Arts games like Monkey Island, Sam and Max, Grim Fandango still beat earthbound in the Charm and Dialogue department and they were released around the same era. And those games still managed to do justice to their genre in terms of gameplay. You can't say gameplay doesn't matter because that's the entire point of a game. Games that don't care about gameplay all that much and just dialogue are called visual novels, and even back during the SNES era Nintendo had those games on the Super Famicom(they just weren't brought over to America). Gameplay matters because you can see why people aren't buying the Wii-U, the system is getting some games. But games like Pikmin have gameplay that doesn't really appear interesting to the majority of people. If charm sold games Nintendo would have it in spades, but the system has been out for close to a year and is withholding any sort of big variety of interesting games until well into 2014. It needs stuff that appeals to a large array of demographics so everyone can buy a large amount of whatever genre they like. The Taint Reaper fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:31
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WendigoJohnson posted:Yeah the argument doesn't hold that much water. The old Lucas Arts games like Monkey Island, Sam and Max, Grim Fandango still beat earthbound in the Charm and Dialogue department and they were released around the same era. And those games still managed to do justice to their genre in terms of gameplay. You can't say gameplay doesn't matter because that's the entire point of a game. Games that don't care about gameplay all that much and just dialogue are called visual novels, and even back during the SNES era Nintendo had those games on the Super Famicom(they just weren't brought over to America). I don't think anyone will ever argue that charm sells games, otherwise Earthbound wouldn't be such a cult title. Even the other example in this thread, Silent Hill 2, was something of a sleeper for several years, getting popular mostly through word of mouth and the hype surrounding the then extremely impressive in-game graphics for Silent Hill 3 when that game was first announced. At the same time though like ImpAtom said, if the combination of gameplay and "charm" if you want to use that as a catchall for the game's atmosphere is right people will get the game. Like you're going to say with a straight face that Sierra adventure games have reasonable puzzles or that Planescape: Torment's combat is on par with Metal Gear Revengeance and that's why they sold? Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:36
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WendigoJohnson posted:Yeah the argument doesn't hold that much water. The old Lucas Arts games like Monkey Island, Sam and Max, Grim Fandango still beat earthbound in the Charm and Dialogue department and they were released around the same era. And those games still managed to do justice to their genre in terms of gameplay. You can't say gameplay doesn't matter because that's the entire point of a game. Games that don't care about gameplay all that much and just dialogue are called visual novels, and even back during the SNES era Nintendo had those games on the Super Famicom(they just weren't brought over to America). Actually many people complained about the gameplay in old adventure games during their heyday as well. Especially when it came to some of the Sierra games, the argument was that the charm and style of the games outweighed the annoyance or obtuse puzzles or in some cases the potential to render the game unwinnable. There were a handful of excellent ones but even some of the more memorable ones were memorable for the writing, not the gameplay. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:36
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ImpAtom posted:Actually many people complained about the gameplay in old adventure games during their heyday as well. Especially when it came to some of the Sierra games, the argument was that the charm and style of the games outweighed the annoyance or obtuse puzzles or in some cases the potential to render the game unwinnable. Yep that's true, but that's why earthbound came with a guide because it was just as obtuse as any of the King's Quest games.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:39
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WendigoJohnson posted:Yep that's true, but that's why earthbound came with a guide because it was just as obtuse as any of the King's Quest games. I can say with 100% certainty though from personal experience that you can definitely complete Earthbound without a guide. King's Quest VI though, there was no way you were beating it without the included guide.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:41
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WendigoJohnson posted:Yep that's true, but that's why earthbound came with a guide because it was just as obtuse as any of the King's Quest games. I have no idea if this is supposed to be sarcastic or not. Earthbound had its moment of obtuseness (the "wait 3 minutes" being the most noteworthy) but by and large the reason it came with a guide is because Nintendo was actively worried that people wouldn't understand how to play it. They also weren't alone there. Squaresoft passed up the chance to release Final Fantasy V because they were worried it would be considered too complex by the English-speaking market and Phantasy Star 2 also pulled the "come with a guide" thing. (Although iN PS2's case, it really may have been too obtuse to play without one.) It was an era where anyone making a console RPG was hesitant that people would be overwhelmed or lost, although some developers eventually got over that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:42
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Neo Rasa posted:I can say with 100% certainty though from personal experience that you can definitely complete Earthbound without a guide. King's Quest VI though, there was no way you were beating it without the included guide. First time play through? I doubt it, the beginning alone with the police cars and meteor has you go back to the chest in the house a few times and doesn't really direct you all that well to lead up to the next section. You're poking and prodding to see what works. And that's just the first 10 minutes of the game. It still had many hangups that old RPGs had like Phantasy Star.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:44
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WendigoJohnson posted:First time play through? I doubt it, the beginning alone with the police cars and meteor has you go back to the chest in the house a few times and doesn't really direct you all that well to lead up to the next section. You're poking and prodding to see what works. And that's just the first 10 minutes of the game. ... what? I literally do not know what you mean by this. Have you considered the fact that you used a translation guide on a Japanese copy of the game may, in fact, be giving you a pretty skewed opinion? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:44
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As someone who's playing earthbound for the first time- I'm laughing at anyone calling it obtuse.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:47
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ImpAtom posted:... what? I literally do not know what you mean by this. When you start the game the meteor crashes, the police cars have the path blocked off. You go around and talk to the different NPCs and they really leave you with no clue what else to do to proceed to the next day. The next day, You then have to go over to your friends house who's parents yell about being poor. You then proceed to fight snakes and dogs in the yard because the first Starman is a stupid jerk. That's the first 10 minutes of earthbound.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:47
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WendigoJohnson posted:When you start the game the meteor crashes, the police cars have the path blocked off. You go around and talk to the different NPCs and they really leave you with no clue what else to do to proceed to the next day. The next day, You then have to go over to your friends house who's parents yell about being poor. You then proceed to fight snakes and dogs in the yard because the first Starman is a stupid jerk. That's the first 10 minutes of earthbound. What? Porky literally tells you to go back home after you talk to him. And then you go back home and the game clearly tells you where to go next. And you can't even lose that Starman fight. It is impossible to. The battle is designed so that you will never lose it.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:49
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WendigoJohnson posted:When you start the game the meteor crashes, the police cars have the path blocked off. You go around and talk to the different NPCs and they really leave you with no clue what else to do to proceed to the next day where you then have to go over to your friends house who's parents yell about being poor. ... Uh, what. You're literally told, without question, where to go every single step of the way for the opening segment of the game. This is the opposite of obtuse. 
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Jul 30, 2013 06:50
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I've been playing through Earthbound for the first time and it's not particularly obtuse at all. I think the only times I've gotten semi-stuck would be some bits where you have to rely on Apple Kid to call and send the item you need. The text-based battle system might be off-putting to some, but it's not a confusing game in the least. This is kind of a tangent, though, isn't it? It seems like releasing the game has gone over very well with current owners, but I can't see it playing a role in attracting many new buyers. Supercar Gautier fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:52
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There are definitely points in EB where it assumes you're exploring every square inch and talking to every single person. Even now as an adult, having beaten the game multiple times, I had to check a guide every now and then because I missed talking to one NPC tucked away in a corner of the desert, or something else dumb as hell. But, there are HINT dudes that tell you exactly what and where your next objective is whenever you feel lost, so I wouldn't call the game opaque or anything.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:53
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Bobnumerotres posted:There are definitely points in EB where it assumes you're exploring every square inch and talking to every single person. Even at its worst, Earthbound could never hope to match some of the old Lucasarts adventure games. I could beat Earthbound without a guide when I was like, 12. But even now as an adult I sure as hell would never be able to beat some of the King's Quest games without a guide.
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Jul 30, 2013 06:55
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ImpAtom posted:... Uh, what. You're literally told, without question, where to go every single step of the way for the opening segment of the game. I dunno it just really struck me as being one of those weird games that required Nintendo Power. Having played through Secret of Mana, Secret of Evermoore, Illusion of gaia, Super Mario RPG, Paladin's Quest, Final Fantasy 4,6, it just never felt as a smooth transition to each section. Chrono Cross was the only other one that I felt like that too, but that was because the secret endings had a bunch of requirements. The Taint Reaper fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Jul 30, 2013 |
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Jul 30, 2013 06:59
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WendigoJohnson posted:I dunno it just really struck me as being one of those weird games that required Nintendo Power. Having played through Secret of Mana, Super Mario RPG, Paladin's Quest, Final Fantasy 4,6, it just never felt as a smooth transition to each section. Chrono Cross was the only other one that I felt like that too, but that was because the secret endings had a bunch of requirements. Well, uh, as you pointed out earlier, you played the game in Japanese with a translation guide. That may not be the optimal way to play the game.
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Jul 30, 2013 07:02
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Earthbound is one of the most straightforward and simple JRPGs I've ever played and because of that its one of the only ones I actually like. For the most part I really don't like the genre at all, what with all the grinding and cringeworthy anime plots. I liked it because it was a whacky yet still familiar road trip. Thats not nostalgia talking either because I played it emulated in my early 20s. It's really not obtuse at all.
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Jul 30, 2013 07:18
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Jimbo Jaggins posted:Earthbound is one of the most straightforward and simple JRPGs I've ever played and because of that its one of the only ones I actually like. For the most part I really don't like the genre at all, what with all the grinding and cringeworthy anime plots. I liked it because it was a whacky yet still familiar road trip. Thats not nostalgia talking either because I played it emulated in my early 20s. It's really not obtuse at all. Did you play Xenoblade? You should play Xenoblade.
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Jul 30, 2013 07:26
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Gutcruncher posted:Did you play Xenoblade? You should play Xenoblade. What? Earthbound and Xenoblade have so little in common, why are you recommending it to someone who doesn't like grinding or anime?
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Jul 30, 2013 08:30
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:What? Earthbound and Xenoblade have so little in common, why are you recommending it to someone who doesn't like grinding or anime? Because it isnt grindy or painfully anime?
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Jul 30, 2013 08:53
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Gutcruncher posted:Because it isnt grindy or painfully anime? It's pretty anime dude, might not be Lunar grade, but it's up there.
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Jul 30, 2013 08:58
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WendigoJohnson posted:It's pretty anime dude, might not be Lunar grade, but it's up there. It's acceptable levels of anime, like maybe only a quarter of minimum lethal dose. It does have happen to actually be a REALLY good JRPG, and considering this generation of JRPGs includes such winners as FF13 and 13-2 and Neptunia, credit given where credit is due. Everyone with some sort of preference towards JRPGs should give Xenoblade a shot.
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Jul 30, 2013 09:03
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fivegears4reverse posted:It's acceptable levels of anime, like maybe only a quarter of minimum lethal dose. This generation also had Ni No Kuni, Valkyria Chronicles, and Disgaea 4. Amazingly, every generation has crap.
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Jul 30, 2013 09:10
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This conversation about your favorite anime games sure is about Nintendo being unable to put out console that stands up to modern standards, or advertise it in an clear manner as not to cause brand confustion.
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Jul 30, 2013 09:16
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Gutcruncher posted:Because it isnt grindy or painfully anime? Dude the game is anime as heck. I mean seriously, come on now. Earthbound is just a fun, simple and very charming rpg. The writing is great and the story is also great. It's just a fun game and I beat it without a strategy guide (you people are insane).
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