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gang sines posted:nthing support for Legacy thread. Me too; I finally moved somewhere where I can play Legacy at least once or twice a week and even though I've barely gotten into the format I'm already seriously considering never playing Standard again once GP Kitakyushu is over.
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Aug 13, 2013 07:04
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8th-snype posted:I wouldn't call burn "not competitive". I'm new to legacy but when I play burn online I don't get constantly curbstomped. Do not underestimate the value of drawing out all their counters and then Fireblasting for lethal on turn 5 or 6. A legacy thread would be nice, I'd be interested in doing some cockatrice stuff with goons, but this thread doesn't exactly move that fast. Is there a good reason we should't just make this into a single eternal format thread for legacy, modern and vintage?
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Aug 13, 2013 07:35
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Wadjamaloo posted:The problem with burn is that its "good matchups" are like 55/45 and its bad matchups are 10/90. You just can't reasonably beat countertop and many of the combo decks, and deathrite decks also give you major headaches. Yeah, I think maybe just having it be an Eternal format thread will be better than splitting everything off into smaller corners. Also, I don't have a lot of experience/knowledge of legacy other than what ive read or watched, and was curious if anyone knew how that zombie/bombardment deck actually was. I remember Sam black doing well with it quite a while ago, but I don't know if its just died and gone away.
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Aug 13, 2013 08:40
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Holy poo poo, when did Fulminator Mage suddenly become a 27 tix card? I just sold my playset, that I bought when it was 8 tix, to fund two more goyfs. 
8th-snype fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Aug 13, 2013 |
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Aug 13, 2013 10:34
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Gravy Train Robber posted:Yeah, I think maybe just having it be an Eternal format thread will be better than splitting everything off into smaller corners. Also, I don't have a lot of experience/knowledge of legacy other than what ive read or watched, and was curious if anyone knew how that zombie/bombardment deck actually was. I remember Sam black doing well with it quite a while ago, but I don't know if its just died and gone away. I agree with your first idea. I think we should discuss whether the Eternal thread should be a repurposing of this thread or a brand new one. I can put together the Legacy primer and can probably bumble through a vintage one but input from higher players would be sweet. Zombardment put up some results because it was piloted by Sam Black. He could take a deck with 60 mountains to a tournament and finish in the money. The disruption package was never enough against combo; it's one of those decks that could have a reasonable fair deck matchup (and is fun as hell to play) but struggles otherwise.
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Aug 13, 2013 15:03
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requested a namechange from Winson. We'll see what happens!
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Aug 13, 2013 15:18
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8th-snype posted:Holy poo poo, when did Fulminator Mage suddenly become a 27 tix card? I just sold my playset, that I bought when it was 8 tix, to fund two more goyfs. I dunno, I've been seeing more Fulminator Mages in the practice rooms too. I guess Land Death is becoming a thing and Living End is picking up some steam.
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Aug 13, 2013 15:57
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So I ended up getting absolutely steamrolled in my first legacy SCG open with Esper Deathblade. I imagine that's what tends to happen when you've played at most 4 games prior with your deck.  In regard to the matchup against Shardless BUG, what's most critical to consider when playing against them, and what works well to sideboard in against them? They seem like one of the worst matchups for the deck with their sheer card efficiency. The best I can think of is boarding Sword of Feast and Famine or an extra Jitte and try to dominate the board as much as possible, stressing the primary advantage over them - the equipment the deck carries.
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Aug 13, 2013 18:44
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I'm still relatively new to Legacy but I've been jamming Esper Deathblade the whole time. I've played against Shardless BUG three times at opens and have won every game. Obviously your exact sideboarding plans depend on your list since Deathblade lists often differ between players but this is my deathblade list. Deck: Esper Deathblade    //Lands 1 Creeping Tar Pit 4 Flooded Strand 1 Karakas 1 Marsh Flats 4 Polluted Delta 1 Scrubland 1 Tropical Island 2 Tundra 3 Underground Sea 2 Wasteland 1 Plains 1 Island 1 Swamp //Spells 1 Batterskull 4 Brainstorm 2 Liliana of the Veil 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 1 Vindicate 1 Ponder 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Thoughtseize 1 Umezawa's Jitte 3 Lingering Souls //Creatures 4 Deathrite Shaman 1 Snapcaster Mage 4 Dark Confidant 4 Stoneforge Mystic 1 Vendilion Clique //Sideboard 3 Force of Will 2 Relic of Progenitus 2 Supreme Verdict 1 Disenchant 1 Path to Exile 2 Geist of Saint Traft 2 Flusterstorm 2 Meddling Mage  Display deck statisticsAgainst Shardless BUG, I probably make the following sideboard changes: +2 Relic of Progenitus +1 Path to Exile -1 Ponder -2 Liliana of the Veil Here's the thing about Deathblade: You're not really super behind in any particular matchup, but nor are you particularly favored. I don't have a huge amount of experience playing against Shardless BUG but just remember that Deathblade is a deck that wins by slowly and incrementally gaining advantage on the board. This again depends on your list but my list is kind of set up to be slightly more control-y so you're in now rush to win. If you can land a jitte and get some counters on it then you've probably won, and as long as you keep their goyfs under control this should be something you can eventually do. EDIT: If they have massacre in the sideboard that is bad news bears for you.
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Aug 13, 2013 18:53
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Thanks to Winson for the thread title update!
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Aug 13, 2013 18:57
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Yeah the guy actually was running Massacre, incidentally. The lingering souls seem like a neat idea, if you swapped out those for the Abrupt Decas our lists would be pretty much identical for the mainboard. How useful have they been? Do you find them getting Deathrited frequently, or do you hold onto them until you can cast -> flashback?
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Aug 13, 2013 19:02
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I switched away from the Abrupt Decays because I wanted more Wasteland protection, and I've actually been liking the Lingering Souls quite a bit. Its true that Deathrite is quite annoying, so its possible you actually sideboard them out against Shardless BUG (especially if you sideboard out the Liliana's). Unfortunately I usually side in the Geists to replace Lingering Souls but geist is not very good against a tarmogoyf deck. You could bring in Supreme Verdict, though. The main reason I switched back to Lingering Souls and Liliana is because of the popularity of Geist in the format now.
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Aug 13, 2013 19:05
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Zoness posted:I dunno, I've been seeing more Fulminator Mages in the practice rooms too. I guess Land Death is becoming a thing and Living End is picking up some steam. Yeah, I looked around a bit before I sold them but couldn't justify not doing it to round out my collection of tarmogofys. the only lists zi play that use them are JUND and Rock. I prefer sowing salts in JUND and the Rock can just play more threats against tron.
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Aug 14, 2013 07:32
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8th-snype posted:Yeah, I looked around a bit before I sold them but couldn't justify not doing it to round out my collection of tarmogofys. the only lists zi play that use them are JUND and Rock. I prefer sowing salts in JUND and the Rock can just play more threats against tron. I don't really see how Sowing Salts is better except against Tron decks. Even if you hit a Colonnade with Sowing Salts, the UWx control deck can still present a clock through other means and the 2/2 body and cheaper cost on Fulminator Mage seems more relevant most of the time. I don't see how realistically you're going to land a Sowing Salts that actually sets a deck other than tron or resolve it through permission. It definitely doesn't affect Scapeshift unless the guy is somehow forced to run Valakut and has no Remand protection somehow. Then again I mostly play combo in modern so v  v.
Zoness fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Aug 14, 2013 |
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Aug 14, 2013 07:42
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Maybe I'm wrong, but outside of Hatebears my land destruction is mostly for tron or manlands. UWx is deck that has a clock no matter what you just hope for better draws and a worse opponents because it has answers for everything else.
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Aug 14, 2013 07:53
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The price of non-online Fulminator Mages is absurd too. It's now stuck at around $15 which is just silly. They are the last thing I need to get my Living End deck right and properly finished, but I just can't force myself to pay that much money for a play set of Fulminator Mages.
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Aug 14, 2013 07:54
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Okay, I'm starting to look more at legacy decks, and realised I had no idea what people meant when they said MUD. I'm looking at the decklist now, and I'm not sure if I understand its gameplan or how it feasibly competes. Can someone help me out with a MUD breakdown?
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Aug 14, 2013 09:21
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Gravy Train Robber posted:Okay, I'm starting to look more at legacy decks, and realised I had no idea what people meant when they said MUD. I'm looking at the decklist now, and I'm not sure if I understand its gameplan or how it feasibly competes. Can someone help me out with a MUD breakdown? I haven't actually played MUD but the general idea is to chalice or lodestone golem early and then beat down with a big artifact creature. Eternal formats rely on cheap removal so chalice for 1 cmc almost assures victory.
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Aug 14, 2013 09:36
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8th-snype posted:I haven't actually played MUD but the general idea is to chalice or lodestone golem early and then beat down with a big artifact creature. Eternal formats rely on cheap removal so chalice for 1 cmc almost assures victory. Ah, thanks- I was just curious because it really looks like most of the key pieces to the deck come out pretty late or are easily disrupted. Its a deck that includes a lot of cards I already have/am planning to acquire very soon for Stompy (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chalice/Trinisphere/etc), and was curious how it played. I just saw the Forgemaster/Welder/artifact tutoring shenanigans in the lists I was looking at, with not a whole lot of protection/disruption.
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Aug 14, 2013 09:44
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Gravy Train Robber posted:Ah, thanks- I was just curious because it really looks like most of the key pieces to the deck come out pretty late or are easily disrupted. Its a deck that includes a lot of cards I already have/am planning to acquire very soon for Stompy (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chalice/Trinisphere/etc), and was curious how it played. I just saw the Forgemaster/Welder/artifact tutoring shenanigans in the lists I was looking at, with not a whole lot of protection/disruption. Legacy rules because it is such a diverse format, the problem with it is there is a ton of cheap disruption. I need to get some duals so i can start playing something other than burn.
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Aug 14, 2013 10:21
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Gravy Train Robber posted:Ah, thanks- I was just curious because it really looks like most of the key pieces to the deck come out pretty late or are easily disrupted. Its a deck that includes a lot of cards I already have/am planning to acquire very soon for Stompy (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors/Chalice/Trinisphere/etc), and was curious how it played. I just saw the Forgemaster/Welder/artifact tutoring shenanigans in the lists I was looking at, with not a whole lot of protection/disruption. Chalice, Lodestone Golem, and Trinisphere are all really good disruption in Legacy, especially when you stack them on top of Wasteland and Port and especially especially when you can power them out turns 1-2.
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Aug 14, 2013 11:14
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Jenx posted:The price of non-online Fulminator Mages is absurd too. It's now stuck at around $15 which is just silly. They are the last thing I need to get my Living End deck right and properly finished, but I just can't force myself to pay that much money for a play set of Fulminator Mages. Well they're running closer to $25 now, so picking them up at $15 would actually be a deal.
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Aug 14, 2013 15:28
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I love Legacy so much, BWR Delver was a thing for like two weekends and suddenly its nowhere to be found, and suddenly Goblins did a thing. So much fun.
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Aug 14, 2013 15:32
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Stinky Pit posted:I love Legacy so much, BWR Delver was a thing for like two weekends and suddenly its nowhere to be found, and suddenly Goblins did a thing. It feels like people have been decrying Goblins as a real player for as long as i've been following the Legacy format, but it's won 3 SCG Opens in that timeframe 
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Aug 14, 2013 15:38
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Stinky Pit posted:I love Legacy so much, BWR Delver was a thing for like two weekends and suddenly its nowhere to be found, and suddenly Goblins did a thing. How do you play delver without blue?
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Aug 14, 2013 15:42
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Zoness posted:How do you play delver without blue? sorry I forget "B" is black all the loving time Niton posted:It feels like people have been decrying Goblins as a real player for as long as i've been following the Legacy format, but it's won 3 SCG Opens in that timeframe That's what makes the format so much fun in my opinion. I can't think of many "real" decks that just completely just disappear. Maverick looked like it was done and dusted but it won something this year too.
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Aug 14, 2013 15:46
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Where's the best place to look up legacy results? I love looking at what the top decks are, and it's always nice to get some sideboarding ideas by looking at the ones that have been successful.
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Aug 14, 2013 15:53
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Mtg Top 8 is a good place to get lists for all of the formats, but especially legacy.
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Aug 14, 2013 16:51
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I'm just putting together Shardless BUG and I haven't really played constructed in quite a while. My question is, does the new legendary rule affect Legacy as much as I think it does? Before in blue mirrors you could bait Force or win the counter war to resolve your Jace first which usually wins you the game.Gravy Train Robber posted:Okay, I'm starting to look more at legacy decks, and realised I had no idea what people meant when they said MUD. I'm looking at the decklist now, and I'm not sure if I understand its gameplan or how it feasibly competes. Can someone help me out with a MUD breakdown? I playtested against versions of MUD a lot and it's a sweet deck. In Legacy everything generally costs 2 or less, so a turn 1 Trinisphere or Chalice for 1 on the play is pretty back breaking. Plus with Wasteland and Crucible, you completely stunt your opponents development. Force and Brainstorm now cost 3, which is huge. HUGE. Combo decks requiring big mana have trouble going off like Elves or TES. Combo decks requiring only 1-time mana commitment aren't affected too much, like Show and Tell or Reanimator, although post-sideboard MUD has Ensnaring Bridge. Your fast lands also enable a quick Metalworker which you can give haste with Lightning Greaves or Hall of the Bandit Lord and then generate a ton of mana for a quick Wurmcoil, Spine of Ish Shah, Myr Battlesphere, or Staff of Domination. Then you can attack and protect with Greaves on the same turn. If you untap with Staff and Metalworker in play, you just win. If you have Goblin Welder and Spine, you get to Vindicate for R once a turn. Its weakness is probably disruption. Everyone generally packs artifact hate. Being on the play is huge, too, like going first with Thoughtseize and Force/Daze is big, but thats generally true of every matchup. Its pretty terrible against Dredge if the Dredge player knows how to play around Relic and kills the Chalice/Trinisphere before Dread Return. Its other weakness is probably random variance. In certain matchups you might have to mulligan aggressively for an Ancient Tomb and Trinisphere. TheKingofSprings posted:Where's the best place to look up legacy results? I love looking at what the top decks are, and it's always nice to get some sideboarding ideas by looking at the ones that have been successful. StarCity legacy opens on their website.
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Aug 14, 2013 17:14
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AlphaKeny1 posted:I'm just putting together Shardless BUG and I haven't really played constructed in quite a while. My question is, does the new legendary rule affect Legacy as much as I think it does? Before in blue mirrors you could bait Force or win the counter war to resolve your Jace first which usually wins you the game. It significantly improves your planeswalkers for one. I won a match against storm by going double LotV to disrupt their storm count, something that wasn't possible previously. I say the first past the Jace post system is still alive and well though. Sticking one before your opponent gives a big lead on them, and it will usually lead to opposing Jaces dying.
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Aug 14, 2013 18:18
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Unlike before though sticking the first Jace is just a big advantage and not an actual game loss. Vindicate also became a lot better, and there's much less downside to running Karakas now. Jitte wars are actually real dumb now, though, since your Jitte no longer kills theirs, so if they land two counters on Jitte you have to draw your Vindicate/Disenchant rather than being able to draw your own jitte.
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Aug 14, 2013 18:20
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ChewyLSB posted:Unlike before though sticking the first Jace is just a big advantage and not an actual game loss. Vindicate also became a lot better, and there's much less downside to running Karakas now. Flagstones is kinda worse now though 
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Aug 14, 2013 19:24
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Tonde Mo Nai posted:Well they're running closer to $25 now, so picking them up at $15 would actually be a deal. Okey what the loving hell?! Seriously, Fulminators used to cost ~$5 when I first started putting together Living End, and now they're reaching 30!
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Aug 14, 2013 21:33
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Jenx posted:Okey what the loving hell?! Seriously, Fulminators used to cost ~$5 when I first started putting together Living End, and now they're reaching 30! Heh where have you been? It's gone through two separate price jumps. Check out Horizon Canopy if you want to  Anyways, check out this cool new Ad Nauseum modern combo deck: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/modern-ad-nauseum/ I goldfished a turn 3 kill with pact backup on my first go. Doesn't depend on the graveyard, tranmuting for pacts is pretty nice, and mana is solid. Rolls to thoughtseize though. This version could use some tightening up I think too.
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Aug 15, 2013 00:23
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:
Leyline of Sanctity 
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Aug 15, 2013 00:27
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:Doesn't depend on the graveyard Well, it kinda does. You have to flashback the Conflagrate so Leyline of the Void and RIP are still a problem. Probably need like a wipe away or or echoing truth or something maindeck to take care of that and leyline of sanctity, but this deck is hilarious and I love it.
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Aug 15, 2013 01:10
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AgentSythe posted:Well, it kinda does. You have to flashback the Conflagrate so Leyline of the Void and RIP are still a problem. Probably need like a wipe away or or echoing truth or something maindeck to take care of that and leyline of sanctity, but this deck is hilarious and I love it. Not necessarily. The deck packs Lightning Storm, which can kill on its lonesome (discard 9 lands, 9x2 = 18, +3 base = 21). There's very low risk of your opponents having more lands in your hand than you do to win a war over Lightning Storm (assuming you drew your deck with Grace + Nauseum). I assume the Conflagrate is to provide a second win card that doesn't get nailed by an Extirpate or Slaughter Games for Lightning Storm, as well as to provide an assist if you're worried about throwing a full-power Lightning Storm at your opponent for some reason. I would wonder though, how to win if the Lightning Storm gets nailed but Conflagrate doesn't get hit. Maybe draw just enough of your deck to bin twenty cards + Conflagrate during the discard phase, then hold the Pacts to survive until your next turn? I wonder if there's also room in the main for one Echoing Truth, but maybe that's not necessary pre-board.
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Aug 15, 2013 01:27
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Pyrolocutus posted:
You just cast it for R and X=0 and then cast it again for RR off your three monkeys, assuming your graveyard isn't hosed.
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Aug 15, 2013 01:32
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I'm dumb and missed lightning storm. The first list I saw didn't have it. I think you're right about Echoing Truth probably not being maindeck. I can't think of too many hosers that an opponent has game 1. Gaddock Teeg out of pod, I guess? e: and Teeg only matters with Conflagrate obv Johnny Five-Jaces fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 04:34
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Zoness posted:You just cast it for R and X=0 and then cast it again for RR off your three monkeys, assuming your graveyard isn't hosed. Oh yeah, you can cast it
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Aug 15, 2013 04:37
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