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That loving Sned posted:Yeah, International Zodiac Job System is the way to go. It makes you specialise your characters, so you don't end up with six interchangeable ones. There are various tweaks and improvements, such as removing the ridiculous requirements for getting the Zodiac spear (including not opening certain chests at the beginning of the game), and most importantly, there's now a speed-up button that makes the game run three times as fast. Is that necessarily a bad thing? FF7 pretty much had fairly interchangeable characters as well.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:03
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It's always nice when the gameplay reflects the story in some meaningful way, though in some RPGs it leads to "I need X for this gimmick boss but only Y can do it, and they haven't seen any XP in 25 hours!"
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Aug 18, 2013 01:20
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The 2x speed button is a good enough reason alone to play the izjs version.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:22
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Oh, IZJS gets rid of the Zodiac Spear bullshit? That's good, thought I hosed myself out of it earlier in this run.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:23
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MarsDragon posted:Are you using gpSP? For some reason, the latest version is set to only update the save file when you exit the emulator for some reason. If you turn off the PSP you just lose progress. There's an option to set it to auto-update like you'd expect it to do in the first place under emulator options. The option is called "update backup". I lost a ton of progress in FFV because of this. Nope, SNES9x Euphoria R5. This is the only one it fucks up on. Mario RPG and Super Metroid save properly too.
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Aug 18, 2013 01:25
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General Morden posted:Is that necessarily a bad thing? FF7 pretty much had fairly interchangeable characters as well. Quite a few people in this thread think it is, yeah. For me, it's the one thing I don't like about IZJS.
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Aug 18, 2013 02:11
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General Morden posted:Is that necessarily a bad thing? FF7 pretty much had fairly interchangeable characters as well. And it's easily the worst thing about FF7. When you can't use characters in your party, you should care, but FF7 makes it so you don't have to. When you lose Aeris, you just take all her materia and slap it on any other character in the game and they do all the same stuff in less than a second.
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Aug 18, 2013 02:22
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Defiance Industries posted:And it's easily the worst thing about FF7. When you can't use characters in your party, you should care, but FF7 makes it so you don't have to. When you lose Aeris, you just take all her materia and slap it on any other character in the game and they do all the same stuff in less than a second. And thank Christ for that. I want to use characters I like in a game, not use characters because I have to in order to survive. I'm playing Tales of Xillia right now, and it's really infuriating that I have to use the awful little girl character just because she's the Designated Healbot. If I don't like a character, I should be able to chuck them out of the party but still be able to cover all necessary bases for an effective team. Edit: vv I haven't gotten to her yet, but putting Jude in my party is just as infuriating, so I don't know what I want at this point. 
ACES CURE PLANES fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 02:34
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S-Alpha posted:And thank Christ for that. I want to use characters I like in a game, not use characters because I have to in order to survive. I'm playing Tales of Xillia right now, and it's really infuriating that I have to use the awful little girl character just because she's the Designated Healbot. If I don't like a character, I should be able to chuck them out of the party but still be able to cover all necessary bases for an effective team. Leia can healbot as well with her heals and buffed item usage. Also Teepo and Elize own 
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Aug 18, 2013 02:35
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S-Alpha posted:And thank Christ for that. I want to use characters I like in a game, not use characters because I have to in order to survive. I'm playing Tales of Xillia right now, and it's really infuriating that I have to use the awful little girl character just because she's the Designated Healbot. If I don't like a character, I should be able to chuck them out of the party but still be able to cover all necessary bases for an effective team. And FF12 lets you use whoever you want as well, and yet if you removed a character from your party you'd probably care, because you can't just pull every skill one character has and slap it on another. Killing Aeris is a temporary inconvenience at best, on the other hand.
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Aug 18, 2013 02:53
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S-Alpha posted:And thank Christ for that. I want to use characters I like in a game, not use characters because I have to in order to survive. I'm playing Tales of Xillia right now, and it's really infuriating that I have to use the awful little girl character just because she's the Designated Healbot. If I don't like a character, I should be able to chuck them out of the party but still be able to cover all necessary bases for an effective team. Over half the cast has access to healing spells in Xilla and there are four party members in a fight at a time. It's literally impossible not to have a dedicated healer in your team even if you don't use Jude or Elize. Edit: Oh hey, this isn't the Xilla thread.
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Aug 18, 2013 02:54
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I personally prefer characters having unique setup and abilities but it doesn't kill the game for me if they don't. I had more fun playing FFXII than I ever had with an FF game, not because of the character mechanics, but because of the battle system and world as a whole. Just exploring in FFXII is an unrivaled treat. Every time I replay it I make sure to retrace my steps and just wonder through the Ozmone Plain or the PHon Coast like I did my first playthrough. I might know the correct way now but I just get to immersed in the feeling that I'm a great adventurer on a quest or something. "It takes a billion hours to walk to Archadia!" "Sounds good to me!"
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Aug 18, 2013 16:02
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So here's a thing about me: i've never beaten any FF game in my life. The closest I got was disc 4 of FFVIII when that game first came out, and that was on PC because i've never owned a Playstation. I just bought FF7 off of Steam and am maybe an hour into it. Even though i'm aware of all the hype this game gets, i've managed to stay completely outside the hype bubble for this game since it first came out. So I guess, wish me luck?
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Aug 18, 2013 19:20
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chaosapiant posted:So here's a thing about me: i've never beaten any FF game in my life. The closest I got was disc 4 of FFVIII when that game first came out, and that was on PC because i've never owned a Playstation. I just bought FF7 off of Steam and am maybe an hour into it. Even though i'm aware of all the hype this game gets, i've managed to stay completely outside the hype bubble for this game since it first came out. So I guess, wish me luck? Try to keep magic and summon materia mostly on your less physical characters. The exception is Cure and Bolt, you've likely noticed you fight a lot of machines and they're all weak to lightning. Good luck and have fun!
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Aug 18, 2013 19:24
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The problem with interchangable characters tends to be that you'll end up using the same solution to most problems. I like being able to build around a party with varying strengths and weaknesses to take on the problem at hand. For what it's worth, I enjoyed Chrono Cross' take on "Materia", each character having unique skills, different grids, and innate elements. It at least gave you a reason to consider others that Materia didn't. Of course, all that got nullified by throwing enough RPG protagonists for 6 separate games at you, but the thought was there...
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Aug 18, 2013 19:25
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Restricted character abilities adds challenge and it gives you a chance at a variety of strategies if you want to play the game multiple times. I actually loved FFXII but I did kind of dedicate each of my characters to roles until I just started filling the whole board up. I'd love to try the international zodiac version tho, where are people getting it?
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Aug 18, 2013 19:34
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Restricted character abilities adds challenge and it gives you a chance at a variety of strategies if you want to play the game multiple times. I actually loved FFXII but I did kind of dedicate each of my characters to roles until I just started filling the whole board up. I'd love to try the international zodiac version tho, where are people getting it? You have to import it, then use the translation patch. For obvious reasons, this will only work on a modded PS2 or an emulator.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:07
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MrAristocrates posted:You have to import it, then use the translation patch. For obvious reasons, this will only work on a modded PS2 or an emulator. After having discovered emulation a few years back, I've had a really hard time playing any of my games on the actual consoles anymore.   (Native res vs. 6x) IZJS also added widescreen support, but unfortunately it stretches out the menus and such pretty badly. 
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Aug 18, 2013 20:22
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It's not a big surprise that the games in the series I hate most are the ones with the most interchangeable characters (VII, VIII, X, XII). They might as well have just made one character and then copy-pasted clones of them.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:38
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Azure_Horizon posted:It's not a big surprise that the games in the series I hate most are the ones with the most interchangeable characters (VII, VIII, X, XII). They might as well have just made one character and then copy-pasted clones of them. Eh, characters in X aren't interchangeable at all until super post-game, and even then Overdrives, ultimate weapons, and Yuna provide enough differences to make superboss strats very character reliant. What do you think about FFV?
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Aug 18, 2013 20:45
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So does anyone know of a decent-quality completed Let's Play of FFXIII that isn't a full-length unedited blind video playthrough like Pork Lift and Wateyad's? It's excruciatingly boring watching them play through all the overly long battles so I usually have it playing in the background, but they keep the game audio low and don't stop talking for cutscenes, so I'm bound to miss stuff. Also, they ran out of things to say in the second or third video. I don't think I can handle 50 or 60 hours of this.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:47
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Schwartzcough posted:So does anyone know of a decent-quality completed Let's Play of FFXIII that isn't a full-length unedited blind video playthrough like Pork Lift and Wateyad's? It's excruciatingly boring watching them play through all the overly long battles so I usually have it playing in the background, but they keep the game audio low and don't stop talking for cutscenes, so I'm bound to miss stuff. Also, they ran out of things to say in the second or third video. I don't think I can handle 50 or 60 hours of this. I've kicked around the idea of a SSLP myself, but then I'd have to play trough 13 again. And try to at least attempt all the hunts 
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Aug 18, 2013 20:48
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Azure_Horizon posted:It's not a big surprise that the games in the series I hate most are the ones with the most interchangeable characters (VII, VIII, X, XII). They might as well have just made one character and then copy-pasted clones of them. As opposed to the rigidly defined characters of I, II, III, V, VI and XIII?
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Aug 18, 2013 20:50
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Looks like SE cracked down on that guy who was selling 3D printed FFVII models.  I'm surprised it took them that long, to be honest. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 21:04
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Dragonatrix posted:As opposed to the rigidly defined characters of I, II, III, V, VI and XIII? V and VI let you customize a character, but they aren't just a coat rack. Characters develop in permanent ways that you can't just hotshot between them, rather than just as a coat rack.
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Aug 18, 2013 21:07
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Dragonatrix posted:As opposed to the rigidly defined characters of I, II, III, V, VI and XIII?
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Aug 18, 2013 21:11
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VI defines characters pretty well between their special abilities and equipment options. I almost think the game is more fun if you don't use espers at all and switch party members more often than people usually do as a consequence to deal with various bosses/problems. And the characters in XIII are rigidly defined until the final act of the game (with 1-3 paradigms of the 6 and wildly different stats), and even then most of them excel at 1 or 2 and are terrible at a couple of the others.
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Aug 18, 2013 21:16
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Azure_Horizon posted:It's not a big surprise that the games in the series I hate most are the ones with the most interchangeable characters (VII, VIII, X, XII). They might as well have just made one character and then copy-pasted clones of them. In a normal playthrough, the characters of FF10 aren't interchangeable. Yeah, if you grinded them out for awhile, every character would turn into a walking god, but if you're just playing to beat the final boss then I can't see any of the heroes breaking out of their class paths on the Sphere Grid. Zombies' Downfall posted:And the characters in XIII are rigidly defined until the final act of the game (with 1-3 paradigms of the 6 and wildly different stats), and even then most of them excel at 1 or 2 and are terrible at a couple of the others. Not to mention the incredible amount of time it takes to grind up those extra roles. Eggie fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 21:23
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Dragonatrix posted:As opposed to the rigidly defined characters of I, II, III, V, VI and XIII? I has you lock characters into classes at the beginning of the game, II emphasizes role specialty since stat gains are tied to equipment, spell use, and weapon use, III is a job system like V which again emphasizes using different classes. Each character in VI has their own unique gimmick and skill list and puts its characters in pretty rigidly defined roles. XIII has distinct Roles each character specializes in, and even in the post-game they are still locked into certain roles in battle.
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Aug 18, 2013 21:50
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Defiance Industries posted:V and VI let you customize a character, but they aren't just a coat rack. Characters develop in permanent ways that you can't just hotshot between them, rather than just as a coat rack. I guess there's also a bunch of difference people have about what interchangeable or well-defined characters mean. For me, well-defined, non-interchangeable characters mean the game sets hard, gameplay relevant limits on the abilities characters can learn or the stats they grow. It means you cannot have characters that are effectively clones of each other; everyone must always fill some unique role. This uniqueness is obviously across a spectrum; FFIV probably restricts character growth and abilities the most, since there's relatively little equipment overlap and the only thing that determines what abilities a character can use and what they can equip is the character itself. FFV, in my view, is on the opposite end of the spectrum; base character stats are basically identical, stat growth and equipment, with the exception of Freelancer with mastered jobs, is based exclusively on the jobs and abilities the player gives a character at a given moment, and freedom to mix and match abilities is without rival in the FF series. Xenogenesis fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Aug 18, 2013 |
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Aug 18, 2013 21:55
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Xenogenesis posted:I guess there's also a bunch of difference people have about what interchangeable or well-defined characters mean. For me, well-defined, non-interchangeable characters mean the game sets hard, gameplay relevant limits on the abilities characters can learn or the stats they grow. It means you cannot have characters that are effectively clones of each other; everyone fills some unique role. This uniqueness is obviously across a spectrum; FFIV probably restricts character growth and abilities the most, since there's relatively little equipment overlap and the only thing that determines what abilities a character can use and what they can equip is the character itself. FFV, in my view, is on the opposite end of the spectrum; base character stats are basically identical, stat growth, with the exception of Freelancer with mastered jobs, is based exclusively on the jobs and abilities the player gives a character at a given moment, and freedom to mix and match abilities is without rival in the FF series. In FFV, when Lenna leaves your party, it's probably relevant in more than just having a warm body. You've lost access to the collection of abilities she has accrued. Unless you've been obsessively grinding everyone to the point where everyone can do everything (which would probably mean everything's difficulty is pretty trivial anyway) then her departure means something. Basically, you are given the freedom to define what Lenna is, but she still has definitions. What she is, is not something you can just transfer. In FF7, when Aeris dies or Cloud leaves, you just take all their materia and stick them on someone else.
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Aug 18, 2013 22:02
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I think VI really did strike the best balance between flexibility and distinctiveness.
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Aug 18, 2013 22:36
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Basically, there's three approaches to character development in the series. 1. Character abilities and development are set by the game, with little choice on how they develop. The most obvious examples are IV and IX, as both give you characters in set classes that can't really advance beyond those roles. I and XII IZJS also apply, as even though you can choose which jobs each character is, after that they're locked to that job. XIII would also fit here, as even after everyone gets all paradigms there's still differences in what abilities certain characters can access. 2. Mostly interchangeable party, where there's little difference between characters and mechanics can be switched at will. VII and VIII are obvious examples, as all abilities are based on Materia/GFs, leaving only Limit Breaks and equipment to differentiate characters. III is another example, since anyone can be any job, and unlike V, there's no abilities to make characters distinct. 3. You choose how your characters develop, but the options are large enough that each character is still going to be relatively unique unless you grind a ton (or have everyone develop the same). V is probably the most obvious considering you gain abilities based on how long you let a character stay in a job. II and X are also strong examples of this, and XII original also follows this, though from what I hear it's easy to max everything out, so it might fall more under #2. VI is an odd case, as I'd put it under #1 if all characters didn't share complete access to magic, i.e. the most overpowered command in the game that isn't "Rage."
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Aug 18, 2013 22:44
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Well, for most of the game, maybe. At the end the best command is clearly "fight" but only a few characters can pull off a Kill Kefka in One Shot setup.
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Aug 18, 2013 22:46
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I don't mind each character having a specific niche as long as everyone gets XP/LP simultaneously regardless of if they are in battle or not. The big problem I have with games which don't do that is the worry that a boss will require using a character type I haven't used before or that the game will remove a character who I rely heavily on and can't just swap out with another character in a pinch. If they don't do that it results in certain characters never, ever getting used and praying that whatever mandatory sequence involving these other characters isn't too brutal. On a personal level it sucks when characters you like have terrible skills so you end up being forced to choose between your favorites and an optimal party. Another issue is something like FFXII IZJS which requires a lot of pre-planning with knowledge you won't have if you haven't played a FFXII or god help you any FF game before which I guess is the point. Especially since two of the weaker classes are also what Baltheir/Fran are portrayed as being. That said, as long as you pick different classes for each character I don't think there is a way to 100% screw yourself over but you certainly can make it much harder than necessary. The big flaw of IZJS isn't the jobs anyway, its the moving of certain spells into treasure chests because gently caress you for not exploring and picking up every chest.
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Aug 19, 2013 17:09
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Archers are weak?
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Aug 19, 2013 17:38
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Gologle posted:Archers are weak? Upsides are they get bows and a decent pool of health and nihapaloa remedy spam. The last one requires some knowledge and willingness to grind and their lack of magic especially healing means that team composition is more pressing when you select one. Early game having an archer and not understanding the rules of FFXII is ok but as it progresses you'll need to have a good plan for the other two jobs as they're more specialized. Its not exactly super relevant though because FFXII is really easy especially if you wander about trying to find those spells. Or do hunts. Hell pretty much even light LP grinding shatters the difficulty curve.
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Aug 19, 2013 17:44
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I don't like it when levelling up becomes a chore. When a game wants to give you a choice of how your characters develop, they can either let you choose before the battle, or after. In V for example, whichever job your character had when going in to battle will get experience towards it, without needing any extra input from the player. The same goes for magicite in VI, materia in VII, and equipment abilities in IX. However, in X, XII, XIII and XIII-2, you need to level up your character manually, even when there's no meaningful choice for you to make. So much time in XIII would have been saved if the crystarium was automatic. The only choice you have for the majority of the game is the order of the three roles you want to develop during that chapter, and whether you want to pick up branch nodes as you go along, or take the fastest route to the job level up.
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Aug 19, 2013 18:04
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Barudak posted:On a personal level it sucks when characters you like have terrible skills so you end up being forced to choose between your favorites and an optimal party. The After Years is the only game I can really think of where the best characters story-wise are also the best characters combat-wise.
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Aug 19, 2013 18:12
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Oh right, you're that "Edward lover". I realized about midway/25% of the way through FFXII that Balthier as the gunner wouldn't cut it, but he looked so freaking suave that I kept him using guns forever. What's a good class for him (that isn't White Mage, oh God).
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Aug 19, 2013 18:16
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