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Lotish posted:^^What a lot of people complained about with regards to the character interactions in DA2 was it felt you were gaming the characters to get what you want rather than just saying whatever you felt like. Alpha Protocol was all about gaming people to get the reaction you wanted. Alternatively get rid of all sliding scales of +1 this -5 that and have companions only change how they act based on 3/4 significant decisions you make during the game. There's nothing at all engaging about seeing Sten get a few points of disapproval because I say I want to do a quest to save some villagers. Wynne standing in my way when I decide to kill all mages in the Circle tower on the other hand can't be negated by a few bottles of wine.
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Sep 20, 2013 22:16
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Ever seen a Qunari sneaking? Of course not, thats just how stealthy they are.
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Sep 20, 2013 22:21
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Maybe it's just me, but I never really perceived stealth as a necessity to be a rogue. Rogues are precise - they don't go all Conan on their enemies. They attack in the most efficient manner possible. They will swerve around their enemies, counter as necessary, dodge when they have to, and then stab in the jugular. Or maybe I just never invested a single point into stealth.
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Sep 20, 2013 22:35
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No matter how fleet-footed they are, a sword and board warrior should squish a rogue into pulp 10 times out of 10 in a fair fight. Squishiness is irrelevant if you put an arrow in their neck from the shadows or stab them in the back while they're actively engaged with another member of your party, though. Surprise is a much more powerful weapon than agility. They should make a fourth class if they're going to add a fourth race, especially if they lock Qunari out of the rogue class.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:26
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Personally, if you're going to add another class, I think another kind of magic class would be best. Perhaps something that focuses on huge magic at close range and can take hits or channel energy protectively, like a variation on the Arcane Warrior or a monk. Not focused on ranged spells, but perhaps elemental melee attacks, defenses and effects--essentially something that plays like Shale but without having to be a golem.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:42
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Just steal some of the goofier classes from Final Fantasy 11 like puppetmaster. Or let you be a real Bard with a Battle-lute. 
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Sep 21, 2013 00:22
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Uncle Wemus posted:Just steal some of the goofier classes from Final Fantasy 11 like puppetmaster. Or let you be a real Bard with a Battle-lute. An axe.
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Sep 21, 2013 01:01
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Doublehex posted:Maybe it's just me, but I never really perceived stealth as a necessity to be a rogue. Rogues are precise - they don't go all Conan on their enemies. They attack in the most efficient manner possible. They will swerve around their enemies, counter as necessary, dodge when they have to, and then stab in the jugular. Conan was a rogue. Dude was always sneaking around and stealing poo poo. Except for when he was a pirate.
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Sep 21, 2013 03:17
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sassassin posted:Alternatively get rid of all sliding scales of +1 this -5 that and have companions only change how they act based on 3/4 significant decisions you make during the game. That is a decent idea, but how would you persuade companions to go against their preferences if there was no system of "relationship points" to base their attitude off of? For example, in the demo there's the choice of abandoning the town or helping it. Varric is very much against abandoning it. If you have no relationship gauge with him already, how do you convince him to abandon if that's what you choose? On the subject of Qunari rogues, Felicia Day's character was culturally Qunari and was a rogue, and she was presumably taught by Qunari, so they must have rogues. I don't really know how they'd do a playable mage Qunari unless the mage player character was totally divorced from Qunari culture. Or, they can just ignore any real story implication of a Qunari mage PC, like they've done in the past with other mage PCs. Nichael fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 03:31
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Ornamented Death posted:Conan was a rogue. Dude was always sneaking around and stealing poo poo. When did rogues go from “swole proles who rely on deception and dirty tricks” to “lock picking ninjas” anyway?
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Sep 21, 2013 03:41
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Benito Hitlerstalin posted:When did rogues go from “swole proles who rely on deception and dirty tricks” to “lock picking ninjas” anyway? DnD originally just called em thieves but then in third edition changed the name to Rogue to broaden their image a bit. That's probably to blame.
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Sep 21, 2013 03:46
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Benito Hitlerstalin posted:When did rogues go from “swole proles who rely on deception and dirty tricks” to “lock picking ninjas” anyway? When "fighter" and "thief" became separate things, most likely.
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Sep 21, 2013 03:48
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Nichael posted:If you have no relationship gauge with him already, how do you convince him to abandon if that's what you choose? By picking the right thing to say with, uh, I dunno, dialogue trees? Remember those?
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Sep 21, 2013 03:51
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Nichael posted:That is a decent idea, but how would you persuade companions to go against their preferences if there was no system of "relationship points" to base their attitude off of? For example, in the demo there's the choice of abandoning the town or helping it. Varric is very much against abandoning it. If you have no relationship gauge with him already, how do you convince him to abandon if that's what you choose? Lets hope they retcon Felicia Day out of the story.
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Sep 21, 2013 04:18
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Torrannor posted:Or perhaps Qunari cannot become rogues? That would probably fit better, we know about Sareebas, and it is difficult to imagine Qunari sneaking around. Oddly enough, the Arishok was a rogue according to the game files. Plus there was that qunari that sniped to crazy priestess lady in the chantry. That guy was stealthy as gently caress. Stroth fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 05:02
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Jeabus Mahogany posted:By picking the right thing to say with, uh, I dunno, dialogue trees? Remember those? But doesn't that making gaming the relationship system even easier and more mechanical? When a party member can be persuaded to do or not do something by picking a specific series of options in the dialogue tree of one major conversation, that discounts the value of past conversations with them. At least with the silly relationship gauge systems, past conversations, in theory, are taken into account. It's not a great system though, by any means. Personally, I'm not convinced there is a way to make conversations with companions less gamey and points based as of now. Nichael fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 05:21
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Torrannor posted:Or perhaps Qunari cannot become rogues? That would probably fit better, we know about Sareebas, and it is difficult to imagine Qunari sneaking around. One of the save files listed (but not loaded, sadly) at the PAX Demo was a Qunari Rogue. I don't think Qunari are going to have any class restrictions -- disallowing mages would make sense if your character is supposed to be actively following the Qun, but that would raise so many problems that I'm almost certain the Qunari PC going to be some form of cultural outcast.
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Sep 21, 2013 05:48
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Ornamented Death posted:Conan was a rogue. Dude was always sneaking around and stealing poo poo. He was a rogue who on occasion wore lamellar or scale armour and knew his way around bigger weapons, so I guess that would mean he was a rogue who opted to go dual class, and he did so six years before Gary Gygax was even born, that's how badass he was.
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Sep 21, 2013 06:16
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I for one cannot wait to see what kind of broken excuses for humans we get to romance this time around. Bio ware romances make me sad, because every one is either wish fulfilling waifus or... moody guys. Also looking forward to having everyone be nuts.
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Sep 21, 2013 06:36
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KittyEmpress posted:Also looking forward to having everyone be nuts. 
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Sep 21, 2013 07:08
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"And that's how Fenris used his magical fisting trick!"
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Sep 21, 2013 12:14
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"This is how I dislocated two fingers."
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Sep 21, 2013 12:19
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kingcom posted:"This is how I dislocated two fingers." Bioware just can't get hands right.
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Sep 21, 2013 12:22
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Varam posted:One of the save files listed (but not loaded, sadly) at the PAX Demo was a Qunari Rogue. I don't think Qunari are going to have any class restrictions -- disallowing mages would make sense if your character is supposed to be actively following the Qun, but that would raise so many problems that I'm almost certain the Qunari PC going to be some form of cultural outcast. While I think it could be cool to have a Qunari who follows the Qun and couldn't be a mage, you're probably right. Unless they locked that class out of any pro mage freedom options, it just wouldn't make sense. If they did do that though, it would be kind of interesting, whenever that kind of decision comes up just having a qunari specific dialogue option instead of a choice. It would certainly encourage replays. And they have said they're not worried about having content that people won't see anymore, so...
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Sep 21, 2013 16:15
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CottonWolf posted:While I think it could be cool to have a Qunari who follows the Qun and couldn't be a mage, you're probably right. Unless they locked that class out of any pro mage freedom options, it just wouldn't make sense. If they did do that though, it would be kind of interesting, whenever that kind of decision comes up just having a qunari specific dialogue option instead of a choice. It would certainly encourage replays. And they have said they're not worried about having content that people won't see anymore, so... We already know they're going to lock dwarves out of being mages, so I don't see the issue in locking Qunaris out of being mages as well. Unless you get to play as like...Sandal or something and become the first dwarven mage. That would be the only circumstance in which I would forgive Bioware if there was suddenly dwarven mages. Your only dialogue is "enchantment".
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Sep 21, 2013 17:22
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Leelee posted:We already know they're going to lock dwarves out of being mages, so I don't see the issue in locking Qunaris out of being mages as well. Unless you get to play as like...Sandal or something and become the first dwarven mage. Oh goddamnit. I just realized that Sandal's gonna turn out to be the mastermind behind the entire "Hole into the fade" thing isn't he. That's what they've been building up to this entire time. 
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Sep 21, 2013 17:36
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Stroth posted:Oh goddamnit. I just realized that Sandal's gonna turn out to be the mastermind behind the entire "Hole into the fade" thing isn't he. That's what they've been building up to this entire time. That would be fantastic.
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Sep 21, 2013 17:38
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Leelee posted:We already know they're going to lock dwarves out of being mages, so I don't see the issue in locking Qunaris out of being mages as well. I guess the issue for anyone who wanted to be a Qunari mage would be that Qunari mages exist in the setting, while Dwarven mages don't. There isn't really any reason not to include them, at least as long as they can just say your character is one of those renegade Qunari.
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Sep 21, 2013 18:16
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Uncle Wemus posted:Well they are grey and firm so probably tuna.
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Sep 22, 2013 17:56
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checkstock posted:The DLC doesn't say the Chantry's story is 100% correct. The opposite, actually. Actually that sort of fits with the story, as mentioned further down. Especially considering that now, yes, those magisters actually existed and went there and all that. I mean, how could you see the place as Golden before entering it otherwise, or fail to notice it being black? Its not like the being who supposedly tricked them was just that good at making stuff look like other stuff that something which was black is now gold to them. I think. Before, the story of it there actually were any mages causing all this corruption was in question, though it could still be true. Now its revealed that that's pretty much how things went down.
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Sep 22, 2013 18:30
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evilmiera posted:Actually that sort of fits with the story, as mentioned further down. Especially considering that now, yes, those magisters actually existed and went there and all that. I mean, how could you see the place as Golden before entering it otherwise, or fail to notice it being black? Its not like the being who supposedly tricked them was just that good at making stuff look like other stuff that something which was black is now gold to them. I think. Dragon Age Wiki posted:In the Warden's Keep DLC, Avernus' notes mention something relating the Black City to the Taint, "In my dreams I see the Black City, and I am drawn towards it. There is something there, an answer to what the taint is." EDIT: Actually, you probably do keep the answers to horrifying questions in a corrupted version of heaven, don't you? Ignore me. CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 19:08
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There's also the fact that even the spirits and demons say that the taint and darkspawn are foreign to them, contradicting the Chantry's story that they're part of the Fade. The details seems to support the idea that the Chantry has, at best, part of the story of what the Darkspawn really are. They just decided to blame everything on mages because they were founded by people who suffered under the rule of the ridiculously evil Tevinter Imperium and demonize magic itself because it was the Magister's main tool of oppression. They just filled in the gaps in history with dogma and self-serving historical revisions over the years while preventing any substantial research that could lead to the truth out of both (understandable, but short-sighted) fear of mages/magic and to maintain their power-base. Much like any religious authority that's grown too stagnant and powerful. I would say that the few details we got from Legacy make the Black City more mysterious than ever while supporting what we already know rather than the old "magic sucks" or "it's a dumb fairy tale" options we had before. Though I will admit that the whole thing is pretty obviously leading to the discovery of some big "greater evil" in the BC, but I just like the mystery angle and hints that we'll eventually see it solved. Hopefully in a better way than the mystery of the Reapers. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 21:28
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Nichael posted:That is a decent idea, but how would you persuade companions to go against their preferences if there was no system of "relationship points" to base their attitude off of? For example, in the demo there's the choice of abandoning the town or helping it. Varric is very much against abandoning it. If you have no relationship gauge with him already, how do you convince him to abandon if that's what you choose? You don't. He might follow you because alone he can't do a drat thing, but he should never agree or forgive you for it because abandoning a town to its fate is abhorrent to him. He would be an rear end in a top hat to you for the rest of the game, and at a pivotal moment decide not to help you in a cunning twist of fate. I'm not sure I understand the issue. I didn't play more than 5 mins of the demo so forgive me for not understanding the context. I'm weird though and never invest in coercion in DAO because I hate being able to have my cake and eat it by choosing the right dialogue options.
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Sep 24, 2013 13:08
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I don't remember noticing this when I played DA2, probably because it was just fetch quest #87 and I didn't know about mage 9 11 yet, but I just read a DA2 LP: The whole "Make a potion to separate Justice/Anders" was a lie and he was having you fetch ingredients to make gunpowder for his bomb. He was always planning on blowing up the Chantry. gently caress Anders. I hope they do bring him back in this so I can kill him again.
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Sep 24, 2013 14:08
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Darkrenown posted:I don't remember noticing this when I played DA2, probably because it was just fetch quest #87 and I didn't know about mage 9 11 yet, but I just read a DA2 LP: The whole "Make a potion to separate Justice/Anders" was a lie and he was having you fetch ingredients to make gunpowder for his bomb. He was always planning on blowing up the Chantry. gently caress Anders. I hope they do bring him back in this so I can kill him again. He's really pretty despicable. If you're his rival, he tells you you've gotten through to him, and he realises he's crazy and dangerous, so he wants your help to make a potion etc etc., and then he straight up betrays you. He does straight up tell you this in the final dialogue sequence of the quest though (he asks for your help to sneak into the Chantry, and you can ask "was there ever any potion?"), so you must have just forgotten.
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Sep 24, 2013 14:40
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Android Blues posted:He's really pretty despicable. If you're his rival, he tells you you've gotten through to him, and he realises he's crazy and dangerous, so he wants your help to make a potion etc etc., and then he straight up betrays you. He does straight up tell you this in the final dialogue sequence of the quest though (he asks for your help to sneak into the Chantry, and you can ask "was there ever any potion?"), so you must have just forgotten. At full rivalry he does at least try to stop it though, but Justice full on takes over and keeps him from getting rid of the bomb.
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Sep 24, 2013 14:49
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But credit where credit is due, Anders is not that bad of a character. I mean I despise him as does everybody else, but he is kind of effective in making you care about him. You care about him in that you want him dead, but apart from him, Varric and maybe Aveline I did not really care what happens to the other characters. And how often did a party member ever betray you in a way that Anders did? He did not belong to some shadow organization, sent to infiltrate and betray you, but instead he acted out of his own motivation and did not even want to harm you! He used you to achieve a goal, but especially if you romance him he does not really oppose you. Plus of course he has a little magically induced psychological problem, but if you think about it, his actions kind of make sense.
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Sep 24, 2013 15:16
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Darkrenown posted:I don't remember noticing this when I played DA2, probably because it was just fetch quest #87 and I didn't know about mage 9 11 yet, but I just read a DA2 LP: The whole "Make a potion to separate Justice/Anders" was a lie and he was having you fetch ingredients to make gunpowder for his bomb. He was always planning on blowing up the Chantry. gently caress Anders. I hope they do bring him back in this so I can kill him again. If you sell Fenris into slavery, you get massive rivalry points from every character, except for Anders, who gets a friendship boost. gently caress Anders.
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Sep 25, 2013 01:20
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Pattonesque posted:If you sell Fenris into slavery, you get massive rivalry points from every character, except for Anders, who gets a friendship boost. Jesus christ what. gently caress Anders.
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Sep 25, 2013 01:26
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I didn't even hate Anders, he was just such a cartoonish rear end in a top hat that it was impossible to take him seriously. When he gets loving approval points for selling Fenris into slavery you know this guy has descended into mustache-twirling villainy, just with a touch of emo. It wasn't even a surprise really when he nuked the chantry, didn't he even ask you to get him saltpeter in that fetchquest? The devs tried to claim that there "is no real villain" but there is, and his name is Anders. And it could have been interesting, having the villain traveling in your party and potentially fuckable, except he isn't even a good character in that sense.
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Sep 25, 2013 01:27
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