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TheWorldIsSquare posted:I didn't even hate Anders, he was just such a cartoonish rear end in a top hat that it was impossible to take him seriously. When he gets loving approval points for selling Fenris into slavery you know this guy has descended into mustache-twirling villainy, just with a touch of emo. It wasn't even a surprise really when he nuked the chantry, didn't he even ask you to get him saltpeter in that fetchquest? I wouldn't go that far. Anders is an irrational rear end in a top hat with a martyr complex who neither knows nor cares what the costs of his crusade may be, but that doesn't make him a bad character.
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Sep 25, 2013 01:32
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Captain Oblivious posted:I wouldn't go that far. Anders is an irrational rear end in a top hat with a martyr complex who neither knows nor cares what the costs of his crusade may be, but that doesn't make him a bad character. The best part about Anders is that he rags on Isabella about how she "Didn't understand what the consequences of stealing the Qunaris book would have on innocent lives", in the same act where he blows up the chantry.
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Sep 25, 2013 01:37
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Captain Oblivious posted:I wouldn't go that far. Anders is an irrational rear end in a top hat with a martyr complex who neither knows nor cares what the costs of his crusade may be, but that doesn't make him a bad character. I mean maybe it's just me but I didn't even have the "gently caress you Anders, seriously, I've been waiting this entire game to kill you" reaction most people did at the end. The former would have been the sign of a good character. The most I felt with the whole chantry thing and shanking him was "wow Bioware really has gone to poo poo huh."
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Sep 25, 2013 01:37
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:I didn't even hate Anders, he was just such a cartoonish rear end in a top hat that it was impossible to take him seriously. When he gets loving approval points for selling Fenris into slavery you know this guy has descended into mustache-twirling villainy, just with a touch of emo. It wasn't even a surprise really when he nuked the chantry, didn't he even ask you to get him saltpeter in that fetchquest? He asks you to get sela petrae and drakestone, the latter of which could also be fantasy sulphur or charcoal.
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Sep 25, 2013 01:57
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Really hope they bring back base armor sets and the like in this next Dragon Age. After plowing through an Origins run (no Awakening) in 3 days and just hitting Act III in Varris and Hawke's Excellent Adventure (at level 18 no less) it made me realize how smooth and enjoyable the baseline combat is in 2, even if the second wave of enemies in the majority of encounters is really poorly handled (but enjoyable and understandable in its implementation) and the buff toggles scaling off max stamina/mana is substantially restrictive of skill builds. While Origins had a great deal of mechanical inconveniences and poor specialization/talent balancing (2-handed weapons, Shapeshifter, Ranger, Reaver, Berzerker pre-Awakening), sperging out over opportunity costs regarding unique gear vs. maintaining set parity, getting enough attack to actually damage things, stamina to use more than one skill through reserve abilities early game, and enough health/physical/mental resistance to avoid Fireball/Chain Lightning/Crushing Prison fuckery was really one of the cornerstones of many people's enjoyment of the game, even if running 2 mages (or just one Arcane-Blood Wizard Fucker) made all these situations irrelevant. Dragon Age II threw a significant portion of this satisfying balancing act out the window when every class only had three sets that you were essentially handed to you if you just followed the side-quests, dumbing down the gear effects and calling every piece unique but with no lore associated with them (a strategy Blizzard picked up for Diablo III to make a billion dollars), and restricting companion item customization outside of tying a red bandanna on an appendage after they have taken/entered the Hawke cock/mound. Gaider's justification of that companion gear rigidity was actually understandable if poorly managed and frustrating (like every other part of Dragon Age II) and I wouldn't be surprised if it came back for Inquisition. Hopefully he has listened to enough twitch.tv chat and Anders/Fenris fanfic to tell his programmers and artists to come up with more than one costume for each companion (bare in mind total companion numbers for Bioware games have been steadily decreasing since Baldur's Gate II). A modular upgrade path for each companion (if not all 4 gear slots at least have their outfits change every several plot beat) would be acceptable at this point, as long as they just listen to the astoundingly unanimous feedback of their playerbase to not make it like Dragon Age II.
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Sep 25, 2013 02:04
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:I didn't even hate Anders, he was just such a cartoonish rear end in a top hat that it was impossible to take him seriously. When he gets loving approval points for selling Fenris into slavery you know this guy has descended into mustache-twirling villainy, just with a touch of emo. It wasn't even a surprise really when he nuked the chantry, didn't he even ask you to get him saltpeter in that fetchquest? What about every single shoehorned radicalist on both sides of the Templar/Mage conflict in every act and quest that clamber the plot forward so incohesively and elementary such that the only theme the writers could convey at the end was "yo there are some bad people in thedas and i wish they could get along together ps war is bad"
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Sep 25, 2013 02:11
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steakmancer posted:Armour sets Didn't they say that it was to facilitate cosplay? Which doesn't really make sense. Because what the hell is Monster Hunter then? Lots of people cosplay the various armours and monsters even. Heck, there is Monster Hunter porn. And you know it is MH porn not because it says right there on the box art(it doesn't), but because a Japanese chick is getting railed out wearing a frisky unicorn outfit.
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Sep 25, 2013 02:22
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jerichojx posted:Didn't they say that it was to facilitate cosplay? It's a really strange reason -- why make a design decision to cater to a vanishingly small percentage of your fanbase? And it's not like no one dresses up as Morrigan, and you can dress her in full plate if you really want to.
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Sep 25, 2013 02:25
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There are mods that let you have some of that armor customization in DA2. I tried one, but it didn't seem to work on Fenris or Isabella, though it did work fine on Aveline.
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Sep 25, 2013 03:11
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Lotish posted:There are mods that let you have some of that armor customization in DA2. I tried one, but it didn't seem to work on Fenris or Isabella, though it did work fine on Aveline. Isabella probably doesn't work because she doesn't use the basic human female body, it was insufficiently sexy for her character trait (being sexy).
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Sep 25, 2013 03:27
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Pattonesque posted:It's a really strange reason -- why make a design decision to cater to a vanishingly small percentage of your fanbase? Its shorthand for saying they don't want their artists to waste time and/or resources. Gotta reach your milestone as fast as possible!
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Sep 25, 2013 03:28
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Captain Oblivious posted:I wouldn't go that far. Anders is an irrational rear end in a top hat with a martyr complex who neither knows nor cares what the costs of his crusade may be, but that doesn't make him a bad character. Yes it does. Every one of those things makes him a bad character, because every one of those things was terribly written. I really wish people would stop claiming that 'Just because you don't like him it doesn't make him a bad character, you're supposed to not like him.' Because it's crap. People don't think he's a bad character because they dislike him, they dislike him because he's a terrible character. You're supposed to be able to sympathize with him, that's why there's a chance to spare his life at the end. He's supposed to be a tragic, glorious hero that does terrible things for the greater good. Instead he's a whining shithead that contradicts himself every other conversation and doesn't do anything but make things worse. Stroth fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 03:37
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Stroth posted:Yes it does. Every one of those things makes him a bad character, because every one of those things was terribly written. So he's typically most martyrs sans all the character "the cause" builds them up to be after their death. I would seriously forgive BioWare for Anders if they make mages talk him up as some grand hero in all this bullshit that Varric can laugh at if he's in your party.
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Sep 25, 2013 04:42
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Stroth posted:Yes it does. Every one of those things makes him a bad character, because every one of those things was terribly written.
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Sep 25, 2013 04:44
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jerichojx posted:Didn't they say that it was to facilitate cosplay? It feels like some of you are glossing over the majesty of this post.
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Sep 25, 2013 04:59
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Yeeeeeeeeeeeee~ep.
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Sep 25, 2013 05:13
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It's called hentai ... and it's art. 
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Sep 25, 2013 05:16
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Stroth posted:Yes it does. Every one of those things makes him a bad character, because every one of those things was terribly written. Hmmm...sorry, nope. I still don't see it. I think you're just overcome by frothing rage at Bioware, in no small part because you spend the majority of your post just yelling BAD with no clearly defined reason! Dragon Age 2 has problems, Anders isn't really one of them. Now the fact that he's almost a completely different person relative to Awakenings is an issue, but within the confines of Dragon Age 2 Anders makes perfect sense as a person. You don't have to like why he does it, but it makes plenty of sense. He's a man who's always had a deep seated resentment for the system, and being fused mentally and spiritually with a non-human being that does not on any level "get" (and is not capable of "getting it") the whole idea of shades of gray is not helping.
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Sep 25, 2013 05:33
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Captain Oblivious posted:Hmmm...sorry, nope. I still don't see it. I think you're just overcome by frothing rage at Bioware, in no small part because you spend the majority of your post just yelling BAD with no clearly defined reason! Dragon Age 2 has problems, Anders isn't really one of them. The man whos deep seated hatred for the system on such a violent level as to be unable to control himself to the point of causing magic 9/11 decides to move to a templar controlled city to...work at an underground hospital. Hes pretty nonsensical dude. Not to mention magic 9/11.
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Sep 25, 2013 05:44
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To be fair, the hospital bit came 6 years before magic 9/11. He started out with good intentions of just helping refugees, both from Ferelden and the Circle.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:02
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Lotish posted:To be fair, the hospital bit came 6 years before magic 9/11. He started out with good intentions of just helping refugees, both from Ferelden and the Circle. I thought it was only 3 years before 9/11 but regardless, this guy is the person who constantly and repeatedly goes nuts over any action involving mages and templars. He doesn't really have the kind of stable temperament to be around both on a regular basis, hes not really someone who makes the most sound decisions.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:20
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I remember one thing I really hated about Anders is that his recruitment quest basically unambiguously said tranquils are always suffering. Not sure why they went through the effort to try and make something repulsive look morally gray, then later on just flat out say it's all bad. It just strikes me as bad writing. You make the audience try to feel split about something, then just tell them they should feel this way instead no questions asked.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:20
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Internet Kraken posted:I remember one thing I really hated about Anders is that his recruitment quest basically unambiguously said tranquils are always suffering. Not sure why they went through the effort to try and make something repulsive look morally gray, then later on just flat out say it's all bad. It just strikes me as bad writing. You make the audience try to feel split about something, then just tell them they should feel this way instead no questions asked. When did they ever say/hint that tranquility wasn't repulsive? poo poo was creepy and questionable in DA:O, and DA2 just seemed like it was confirming that it was indeed bad.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:23
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necessary voodoo posted:When did they ever say/hint that tranquility wasn't repulsive? poo poo was creepy and questionable in DA:O, and DA2 just seemed like it was confirming that it was indeed bad. DA:O run it as the idea that if your an unstable vessel through which unimaginable horrors from the fade can burst forth into reality, it was an acceptable sacrifice to become tranquil. You lost a big part of who you were but you didn't become a monster and still had the potential to lead some kind of life. It was only a little bit warhammer 40k but when you find out they are in essentially perpetual torment they get to go full 40k.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:26
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kingcom posted:DA:O run it as the idea that if your an unstable vessel through which unimaginable horrors from the fade can burst forth into reality, it was an acceptable sacrifice to become tranquil. You lost a big part of who you were but you didn't become a monster and still had the potential to lead some kind of life. Which was why the entire mage origin story was about you trying to save your friend from being made tranquil? Basically every comment on the tranquil in DA:O from party members is about how creepy they are. It was sort of presented as acceptable in theory, but in the actual game no one ever seems to be really okay with it.
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Sep 25, 2013 06:34
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It was always something that was portrayed in a bad light, and indeed you could always consider it to be disgusting, but it was pictued more as a grim necessity. What made it not completely horrible is that the Tranquils were content and productive. It's not like being lobotomized and turned into a mindless zombie, they could still do stuff and had some degree of individuality. Not much, but they didn't suffer in their state. Then DA:2 says yes they do suffer constantly and it's horrible. This isn't set up as a big reveal or anything either, it's just dropped in at the end of Ander's recruitment to make the situation more dramatic. necessary voodoo posted:Which was why the entire mage origin story was about you trying to save your friend from being made tranquil? Basically every comment on the tranquil in DA:O from party members is about how creepy they are. It was sort of presented as acceptable in theory, but in the actual game no one ever seems to be really okay with it. Yes, the same mage that was going to be made tranquil because the Templars thought he was unstable and dangerous. Which he was. Him being made tranquil would of prevented a lot of trouble. Everyone says tranquils are creepy but that's to be expected. The important thing is that in DA:O tranquility was presnted as the only viable alternative to straight up executing people that are too dangerous. When a single weak mage can cause complete chaos, they had to resort to such methods. It was awful, but was it worse than being dead? Not everyone feared tranquility either. There were tranquil that said they chose to take that path because they felt it was better than the alternative. But all that doesn't matter when DA:2 just says tranquility is actually eternal torment for no good reason. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 06:35
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kingcom posted:It was only a little bit warhammer 40k but when you find out they are in essentially perpetual torment they get to go full 40k. It's a bit like Flowers for Algernon, I suppose. But maybe I missed the bit where they actually said that the Tranquil dudes are in agony. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 07:23
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Crabtree posted:So he's typically most martyrs sans all the character "the cause" builds them up to be after their death. I would seriously forgive BioWare for Anders if they make mages talk him up as some grand hero in all this bullshit that Varric can laugh at if he's in your party. Nope. From what I've seen, even years later, other mages think of Anders as an insane idiot who pulled them into his horribly planed little rebellion against their consent. Especially the mages who were there at the time who suddenly found themselves marked for execution just because they happened to be at the wrong place (Kirkwall) at the wrong time (anytime).
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Sep 25, 2013 12:53
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Geostomp posted:Nope. From what I've seen, even years later, other mages think of Anders as an insane idiot who pulled them into his horribly planed little rebellion against their consent. Especially the mages who were there at the time who suddenly found themselves marked for execution just because they happened to be at the wrong place (Kirkwall) at the wrong time (anytime). Welp, there goes the one good joke I could think up that could have come out of that whole ham-handed affair. Hopefully BioWare will think of at least someway for people to have a cathartic laugh at DA2 in Inquisition, they're fighting years of bile at this point.
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Sep 25, 2013 14:19
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Honestly, the Mage uprising would have happened one way or another. Anders may have forced them into it NOW, but in the future if it wasn't for Anders they would have broken apart at some point. Even in Awakening there was a quest line that had to deal with calming down a faction of Mages that wanted to split from the Chantry. It was coming to a head. Anders just lit it on fire.
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Sep 25, 2013 14:27
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He lit the fire in the worst possible way.
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Sep 25, 2013 15:21
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Yeah, there's no denying that. But if it wasn't him then someone else would have done it. Some things are just inevitable. That and Bioware needed an idea for a story for DA III.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:04
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I just hope they avoid heavy handed allegory like "magic 9/11" and "tranquil solution" because Jesus...
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Sep 25, 2013 18:14
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Lotish posted:I just hope they avoid heavy handed allegory like "magic 9/11" and "tranquil solution" because Jesus... The next one will make the player hate the Chantry by featuring a horrific slaughter of Qunari at Wounded Elbow.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:22
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Boogle posted:Its shorthand for saying they don't want their artists to waste time and/or resources. Gotta reach your milestone as fast as possible! They already designed them all for Hawke, which would work on any of the companions besides Varric basically. It was entirely their lovely choice for lovely reasons.
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Sep 25, 2013 18:55
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Boogle posted:Its shorthand for saying they don't want their artists to waste time and/or resources. Gotta reach your milestone as fast as possible! Not true - you can mod DAII to allow any companion to wear any armor (attributes and class restrictions aside). The only exception is Varric, as they didn't create armor to scale to dwarven body types.
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Sep 25, 2013 20:35
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Stroth posted:Yes it does. Every one of those things makes him a bad character, because every one of those things was terribly written. Could you give examples of him contradicting himself? I don't see them. He is obviously not one of the great characters in video gaming, but calling him a bad character is going too far in my opinion. I also don't see why you think we are supposed to sympathize with him, just because we have the option to spare him at the end. Look at it from another angle, perhaps we are supposed to hate him, which is why we are given the chance to kill him at the end? I mean we are obviously supposed to sympathize with him a little bit, since his principal objection to the treatment of mages has some merit. But I don't think Bioware wanted us to like him. He betrayed us in a really personal way. There is no way that Bioware did not want us to dislike him.
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Sep 25, 2013 20:39
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KoB posted:They already designed them all for Hawke, which would work on any of the companions besides Varric basically. It was entirely their lovely choice for lovely reasons. What I don't get is why they didn't design it so Hawke got class-specific armor only. It made no sense for 2/3s of the armor you got to be completely useless. They already gave us an entire class of vendor trash, so it's not like we were hurting for money after Act I. Really they could have just trimmed down the loot in general: aside from staffs, you have a maximum of two people (including Hawke, depended on class) that could use any one type of weapon, so you didn't need half the junk that was tossed at you. It was almost as bad about pointless gear for gear's sake as Mass Effect one. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 20:51
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Dragon Age: Origins dumped a ton of lovely loot on you as well though. When you ran through areas you got tons of useless equipment that was like 3 tiers below what you are using. You could round up all the peasants and turn them into your personal army with all the cheap gear you are getting. I actually found it really annoying since the inventory icons for most gear looks the same, so when you actually do get something worth using you might not notice at first because you're just glancing over everything at that point.
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Sep 25, 2013 20:56
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I dislike Anders, but I think it is important to note that despite goons/the internet doing so, not everyone chose to kill him for his crimes. I know more than a few people who think he was entirely justified in murdering the Chantry. Yeah he betrays you to do it, but think of the mages!!! If Bioware was as bad and heavy handed as everyone claims they are, they easily could have not given you a choice to execute him. I mean, I let him live once or twice because in comparison to everything else that goes down, Anders following his own goal instead of being PERFECTLY LOYAL BEEPBOOP due to me maxing his friendship was neat. I would actually like Anders as a base for DA:I companions, where no, raising their affection does not mean they will not have their own goals. Maybe make their own goals left blindingly stupid though.
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