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Mio Bison posted:Bunch of people in here setting up a false dichotomy about fighting games not having enough to discover if the roster isn't really large. I love you all but get back on your meds. Who was making this point that large casts are required for a game to have depth? I've only seen the opposite argued, that large casts are only detrimental and can hinder the growth of a deep game by increasing the number of matchups.
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Sep 29, 2013 16:47
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Did you know that sometimes people beat other people at video games because they knew more things about that video game? Did you know that's how people beat other people at video games a majority of the time? Did you know that Bob from Tekken was named after Robert DeNiro?
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Sep 29, 2013 16:49
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Waterbed posted:Did you know that Bob from Tekken was named after Robert DeNiro? I didn't! Good thing you told me, otherwise I might have lost a grand finals to his Trivia Super. 
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Sep 29, 2013 16:51
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Oh my, Ixiggle. Your "counterpoints" are things that happened afterward like it had any effect on the situations. Next you'll claim that the iPhone wasn't very revolutionary because you own a Samsung Galaxy.
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Sep 29, 2013 16:52
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Even so, did those things happen again after the first time? Are these people still losing to those things?
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Sep 29, 2013 16:54
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Broken Loose posted:Oh my, Ixiggle. Your "counterpoints" are things that happened afterward like it had any effect on the situations. Next you'll claim that the iPhone wasn't very revolutionary because you own a Samsung Galaxy. Speaking of which, I really enjoy the Street Fighter iPhone games as they contain less cast members, making it the superior version for delving deep into the heart of battle.
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Sep 29, 2013 16:54
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Inescapable air reset into hyper combo is functionally just a(n unscaled) combo. What's the issue?
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Sep 29, 2013 16:55
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Doesn't a small roster make things incredibly boring after a while? I was under the impression that a large roster mixed things up and made things more fun. Take Skullgirls for example. With only nine characters, you'll pretty much find out and understand all the things those characters can do and have to offer rather quickly. It also kind of limits you because you have so few play styles to pick from, character wise (although in Skullgirl's case, I suppose the upcoming DLC characters will fix this).
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Sep 29, 2013 16:56
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Broken Loose posted:Oh my, Ixiggle. Your "counterpoints" are things that happened afterward like it had any effect on the situations. Next you'll claim that the iPhone wasn't very revolutionary because you own a Samsung Galaxy. If something new is discovered and then becomes the standard I really can't fathom how you can call it a gimmick and not a strategy. Maybe if you actually responded to my question about what you view as an unfair gimmick (and how this kind of gimmick becomes worse with larger cast sizes, mind) you could avoid flailing like a child and whining about things in games you view as unfair and obtuse while being a champion of Skullgirls: Wait Does My Combo Still Work Edition.
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Sep 29, 2013 16:58
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General Morden posted:Take Skullgirls for example. With only nine characters, you'll pretty much find out and understand all the things those characters can do and have to offer rather quickly. No, not really. Somebody earlier cited the example of how people are still discovering new tech in Super Turbo, nevermind games whose latest revision only came out a few months ago.
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Sep 29, 2013 16:59
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To me it seems like the problem might be that SF4 and Marvel just aren't very good games.
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Sep 29, 2013 17:05
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Ixiggle posted:Why? What is your reasoning for this? Do you have more substantial logic as to why this is the optimal cast size or are you pulling numbers out of your rear end because the truth is the distinction between too many and too few characters is completely arbitrary. 10-15 is your preferred cast size, not the 'optimal' unless you can back up the claim with something other than a gut feeling. 40 OZ posted:I don't have enough time to memorize all that poo poo and I don't see why you need 50 characters to give everybody a set of tools that fits their gameplay mentality/style. I can make do with 12. That's fine for me! Broken Loose posted:40 OZ's point, while valid, doesn't work in practice because most games with huge casts either have a shitload of homogenized characters or just a shitload of irrelevant characters. You don't need to learn matchups against all 50 characters since only 10 are played. Gutcruncher posted:Well youre in luck, Aquapazza is nearly 100% waifus and only has 13 characters! Redmark posted:Adding a new character is only a good thing if it also adds a new playstyle. If all you get is a divekick with different angles and safejump timings, what exactly is the point? In practice, there are only so many characters in a game which "fit" well, and exemplify the "good parts" of a certain engine. Marvel vs Capcom 2 has 56 playable characters, but how many of them matter? Maybe 10? All of the other characters belong in a game which is not Marvel vs Capcom 2. Meanwhile Super Turbo has a very limited cast, but (putting personal hatreds aside) I can't say any of them doesn't belong in Super Turbo. It took me two minutes to find four other people who are suggesting a number between 10 and 15. And be honest; how many different characters do you really see being played that often? I've been watching marvel streams for about a year, if you asked me to list the cast based on tournament play I'd be saying "Wesker, Magneto, Vergil, Doom, Dante, Morrigan, Strider, Hulk, Haggar, Sentinel, Zero, Phoenix, Dormammu, Nova, Strange...uh, there are some others I've seen maybe once or twice but I don't really remember them". How many of the 32 characters in ST get played? Do you see an equal distribution of choices, or do some get chosen all the time and some get chosen none of the time? For each character, does the O. version and regular version get chosen an equal amount or are there some characters where one version is considered to be just straight up better? And more importantly, how does having 32 characters make ST a better game? What does ST gain from 32 characters that it would lose if you cut the roster down to 16? I'm not proposing that 15 is a hard cap for cast limits and that any game with more than that is trash, but if you have a cast of 32 and only 16 of them really get any play, what are the extraneous characters adding to the table that justifies their presence in the game?
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Sep 29, 2013 17:05
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General Morden posted:Doesn't a small roster make things incredibly boring after a while? I was under the impression that a large roster mixed things up and made things more fun.
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Sep 29, 2013 17:07
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So... Kusoru beat everyone at Final Round over and over again for 2 days because the UMVC3 cast is too big, which made his low-tier team too powerful for all the sponsored tournament players in attendance?
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Sep 29, 2013 17:09
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I hate Marvel 3 so goddamn much. I mean this argument can happen with any game but hoooooly poo poo.
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Sep 29, 2013 17:19
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Coca Koala posted:if you have a cast of 32 and only 16 of them really get any play, what are the extraneous characters adding to the table that justifies their presence in the game? If the game had been made with 16 characters in the first place then who's to say that they'd have been the exact 16 that wound up seeing real play?
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Sep 29, 2013 17:27
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I will preface this by saying that when I said 50 characters, or 100, or 1000 characters I meant viable characters.Ghostpilot posted:For you to be complaining about the things you're complaining about shows that you don't know what you're talking about. I love blowhard posters like this. quote:Matchup knowledge ties directly into FG skill. How are you going to know what to look for in a matchup if you don't know what your character is capable of and recognize the holes on their game to exploit? After so many viable characters, nobody can feasibly learn matchup knowledge against the whole cast. And they don't. Do I need to draw a graph here? In Bebop's example of a 1000 character game, you would be retarded to try to really dig into a matchup. quote:If you are getting "randomed out by dumbass 10 strings" chances are you aren't familiar enough with the game (in this case Tekken) to know what to do about it. You virtually never see 10 strings in anything above mid-level play because: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2mh0FLXUGw#t=04m06s *Time @ 4:06 if the time link doesn't work* There you go! Enjoy. It was dumb for you to make that appeal to authority but since you did, here is a better Tekken player than you explaining why you are wrong. quote:You learn by practicing, playing matches and, more often than not, losing. You don't have to learn every single conceivable matchup. Nobody knows every matchup: not Wong, not Diago, not Bala, not anybody else that anybody can name because that is virtually impossible. Daigo does have matchup knowledge against the entire cast of SSF4. The game has a big cast but it has been doled out in successive releases, in doses small enough that someone like him who has kept up with the series can be pretty familiar with the whole thing. Does he know some more than others? Sure. You know that feeling when you draw an opponent in a tournament who plays a character that like your roommate or best local guy plays? Where you salivate because you know you are gonna tear this guy apart? That doesn't happen in theoretical 1000 character game. Or even 100 viable character game. You'd probably be best off in 100 character game just trying to remember everyone's special moves.
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Sep 29, 2013 17:33
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Coca Koala posted:It took me two minutes to find four other people who are suggesting a number between 10 and 15. quote:And more importantly, how does having 32 characters make ST a better game? What does ST gain from 32 characters that it would lose if you cut the roster down to 16? I'm not proposing that 15 is a hard cap for cast limits and that any game with more than that is trash, but if you have a cast of 32 and only 16 of them really get any play, what are the extraneous characters adding to the table that justifies their presence in the game? Sometimes fighting games have characters who can't find their place. This isn't a bad thing. No game has been ruined by the existence of less than effective characters. ST Cammy is not very good but she's still very popular because people play fighting games for different things and different characters appeal to them for different reasons. FGs are defined by their character selection so I find a view that specifies these characters should be limited in some way as very misguided. Chun-li doesn't do anything in marvel 3 but her inclusion made some people happy even if they aren't winning tournaments.
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Sep 29, 2013 17:36
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40 OZ posted:
I'm sorry...you mean the part where he immediately says that 10 strings are useless? Then goes on to say that you have to become familiar with things in order to deal with them? And furthermore goes on how to deal with them? What are you even talking about?
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Sep 29, 2013 18:04
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Ghostpilot posted:I'm sorry...you mean the part where he immediately says that 10 strings are useless? Then goes on to say that you have to become familiar with things in order to deal with them? And furthermore goes on how to deal with them? "Ten hit combos, string, these ARE useless... in the end." Uh Then he makes the point about where he gets beat by bullshit because its something hes never seen before and he hates getting beat by losing to ten hit combos but that in tekken revolution there is an invicible move that stops the 10 hit combo hes never seen and he's never seen and my brain 572389-655r883975127489-1241251vt fg6803g680g78 
40 OZ fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 18:07
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Ghostpilot posted:I'm sorry...you mean the part where he immediately says that 10 strings are useless? Then goes on to say that you have to become familiar with things in order to deal with them? And furthermore goes on how to deal with them? 10 strings in tekken are roughly the equivalent of the Ken player who just does dragon punches from one end of the screen to the other. If you don't know what to do about it, you're going to get beaten in embarrassing fashion, but once you realize you can just block and punish, they're no issue. Are even seasoned players going to sometimes fall for dumbshit because they basically out think themselves and do the "there's no way he's ACTUALLY doing that" thing? Yeah of course. Is it going to reliably win matches at anything past a beginner level? No it isn't.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:09
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40 OZ posted:"Ten hit combos, string, these ARE useless... in the end." You lose to something you haven't seen before. Then, hopefully, you learn. Then you stop losing. It's as simple as that.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:09
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edit- No, i'm not responding to you because you responded to my effortpost with blowhard one liners that don't mean anything.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:13
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Wow a pro player lost to something and complains about the thing he lost to what a rock solid argument. Maybe we should ban yun and games that have yun in them since fchamp got really mad about losing to yun. vvvvvv Lets get rid of combos too so that True Skill (tm) can shine through and combos are just memorization anyway! Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 18:14
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Ghostpilot posted:You lose to something you haven't seen before. Then, hopefully, you learn. Then you stop losing. Yeah, and the more obscure superfluous stuff you have to learn the less a game becomes about actual fighting game fundamentals and being a Good Player and becomes more about grinding out knowledge and studying. Jeffrey posted:vvvvvv Lets get rid of combos too so that True Skill (tm) can shine through and combos are just memorization anyway! Brett824 fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 18:14
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Brett824 posted:Yeah, and the more obscure superfluous stuff you have to learn the less a game becomes about actual fighting game fundamentals and being a Good Player and becomes more about grinding out knowledge and studying. Divekick is the epitome of all fighting games.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:18
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Jeffrey posted:Wow a pro player lost to something and complains about the thing he lost to what a rock solid argument. Maybe we should ban yun and games that have yun in them since fchamp got really mad about losing to yun. This is a total shithead post. Is this really how you discuss things? Why are you contributing some horseshit like this? The guy made an appeal to authority by saying that good players don't lose to 10-strings, that I couldn't form an argument about them because I wasn't as good as him. So I responded with a good player refuting him.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:18
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Brett824 posted:Yeah, and the more obscure superfluous stuff you have to learn the less a game becomes about actual fighting game fundamentals and being a Good Player and becomes more about grinding out knowledge and studying. If we remove things we have to learn about the game we can focus on learning things about the game instead. Another brilliant Brett post.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:18
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Redmark posted:A lot of matchups are just internalizing "oh move X beats move Y" and then it just comes back to fundamentals. I had to quote this because, Wtf? This is not a thing, whatsoever. I also can't believe people are arguing stuff like Kusoru or Adon winning off the strength of unconventional characters is a BAD thing. It's interesting when the meta is shaken up and characters that were previously thought to be unviable become threats. It's a big part of what makes watching a game go through its competitive life cycle interesting.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:19
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Jeffrey posted:vvvvvv Lets get rid of combos too so that True Skill (tm) can shine through and combos are just memorization anyway! Yes, that is exactly what Brett said. Good job, you successfully extracted the proper meaning from his post. Go celebrate.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:19
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Jeffrey posted:vvvvvv Lets get rid of combos too so that True Skill (tm) can shine through and combos are just memorization anyway! It's a slippery slope fellas! Stop posting.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:20
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What the dude in 40 OZ's video is saying is that the canned 10 strings in Tekken are stupid because they add false depth to the game, they're extremely effective until you gone through the rote process of memorizing how to block and parry/interrupt them (which is different for every character) and completely worthless after. Not comparable to blocking reversals in SF.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:22
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Yo dude there are over 150 ten strings in TTT2, even if you learn them all, good luck remembering what they all look like. Tekken is actually the best example of having too much superfluous, arcane legacy bull that adds nothing worthwhile to the game. Anyway in my opinion, generally 2D fighting games should have 20-24 characters max, and 3D should have 16-20. Anything more is just added because people can't get enough new characters...they are a huge selling point.Jeffrey posted:Lets get rid of combos too so that True Skill (tm) can shine through and combos are just memorization anyway! Dandy J fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 18:23
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Ixiggle posted:If we remove [extraneous, superfluous] things we have to learn about the game we can focus on learning things about the game instead. Another brilliant Brett post. Hey I fixed your post so that it actually reflects the sentiment of the guy you quoted, I hope you don't mind.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:26
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Jmcrofts posted:I also can't believe people are arguing stuff like Kusoru or Adon winning off the strength of unconventional characters is a BAD thing. It's interesting when the meta is shaken up and characters that were previously thought to be unviable become threats. It's a big part of what makes watching a game go through its competitive life cycle interesting. There's a difference between what you're describing and what I was describing, though. Rocket stayed in obscurity after Final Round because it turns out you can easily deal with him if you knew it existed beforehand. If a character is legitimately slept-on, then they will rise in power and stay powerful like Doom and Morrigan. If a character is a dumb gimmick, then they will catch people by surprise, possibly take out a tournament, and then stop affecting people like one of those springy snake canister things or getting goatse'd.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:32
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A character being overall less effective than other characters does not make them a gimmick.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:33
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Brett824 posted:But there's a point at which the breadth of a game can get to the point where it becomes too much about learning very specific things. I'm not one of the divekick "this game lets me play a True Game based on Real Skill" people, but I think there's a point at which depth and a smaller cast become much better than larger casts. Sorry this is how you pattern matched when I read your post, I think your argument applies to both things which is why I responded that way. To me being a good player is about synthesizing the stuff actually in the game with "fundamentals" in order to win, the two are inseparable. I agree there could be a game that suffered for requiring too much background knowledge but I suspect we're not there yet. Once you've chosen a combo and hit confirmed it the rest pretty much is rote memorization. Dandy J posted:You say that sarcastically but...it's true. People are obsessed with combos because they are fun to do. But at the same time you can design a game where instead of doing a combo from a move, the move itself simply does a combo's worth of damage and has a satisfying impact, and more skill levels would be able to enjoy the game on a higher level. It would also make it obvious how silly combos are in a lot of games...kof13, mvc3, tekken, etc. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 18:38
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Coca Koala posted:Hey I fixed your post so that it actually reflects the sentiment of the guy you quoted, I hope you don't mind. You seem to need help making your points for yourself so yes feel free to edit mine if it makes it easier for you. I actually kinda agree with DandyJ's points on some of Tekken's arbitrary knowledge and execution checks before you can even really get into the game, and its making me reconsider some of my earlier arguments. Even 10 strings aside there's a lot of stuff in there that will blow up anyone who doesn't know about it but are also completely worthless in high level, what I view as a real gimmick. BL argued that overheads were a gimmick and Brett didn't make any distinction in what was superfluous bullshit. There are a lot of people that think combos and DP motions are added bullshit, remember.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:40
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Ixiggle posted:BL argued that overheads were a gimmick OH, you're really just trolling. You had me wondering for a second, there.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:43
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Broken Loose posted:Hope you knew beforehand that X-23's cinematic level 1 is completely invincible for the first 20 frames while she walks across the screen, or about hyper armor Hsien-ko, or Turnabout Mode, or Firebrand Snapback Unblockable, or how to get out of Ultimate Web Throw setups, or that Spencer has a grounded overhead he tends to use after an XFC'ed Bionic Arm, or that Felicia is just a gigantic shitpile of infuriating gimmicks! Nah I meant that one. The Skullgirls jab was trolling though 
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Sep 29, 2013 18:47
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