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I could be wrong, but I thought that the whole fuckin' point of Zack was that he was just some guy. He's not Sephiroth; he's not a hero; sure, he's in his military's Green Berets/Navy SEALs equivalent, but so are a lot of people, and most people die if three people shoot them. So when Crisis Core recons it so that HE IS THE MOST AWESOME DUDE EVER AND HE ONLY DIED BECAUSE THERE WERE LIKE A MILLION GUYS SHOOTING HIM, THEY WERE JUST OFFSCREEN, NO REALLY, it seems really fuckin' weird to me.
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Oct 21, 2013 09:35
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DontMockMySmock posted:I could be wrong, but I thought that the whole fuckin' point of Zack was that he was just some guy. He's not Sephiroth; he's not a hero; sure, he's in his military's Green Berets/Navy SEALs equivalent, but so are a lot of people, and most people die if three people shoot them. Zack was a Soldier First Class who are the elite of the elite. All the way people treat Cloud as a Big Deal is because they think he is the guy Zack actually was. It's kinda hard to get a feel for it when your protagonist team are all insane superbadasses as well but SOLDIERS were supposed to be literal super soldiers who can do insane crazy things. FFVII's version basically assumes the audience is accepting narrative fiat to justify why a guy who is (as-written) an insane super soldier badass gets taken out easier than a level 1 character. Crisis Core basically goes "here is what would be necessary to beat this dude if gameplay mechanics were recognized by the narrative." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 09:38
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ImpAtom posted:FFVII's version basically assumes the audience is accepting narrative fiat to justify why a guy who is (as-written) an insane super soldier badass gets taken out easier than a level 1 character. Crisis Core basically goes "here is what would be necessary to beat this dude if gameplay mechanics were recognized by the narrative." This description just makes me wish that they'd take the same angle on Aerith. Have her get into some kind of crazy staff/magic battle with Sephiroth that only ends when she sees Cloud running up and it distracts her for long enough that Sephiroth scores a clean hit. Praying is so passe.
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Oct 21, 2013 10:33
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Hokuto posted:This description just makes me wish that they'd take the same angle on Aerith. Have her get into some kind of crazy staff/magic battle with Sephiroth that only ends when she sees Cloud running up and it distracts her for long enough that Sephiroth scores a clean hit. Praying is so passe. If this happened the player would just spam Great Gospel.
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Oct 21, 2013 10:39
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I remember that the anime short (can't remember the name of it) that retold the fight between Zack/Sephiroth at the reactor and the truck ride with Zack and Cloud was really weird in that it was different from both the Crisis Core/original game scenes with the helicopter containing Reno and Rude showing up during the truck ride and shooting at Zack while they were riding. Never figured out what was up with that. The Crisis Core retelling of events is okay, I'm fine with there being a ton of soldiers there (since they would certainly be desperate to stop Zack considering what he knows) but Zack living just long enough to say some stuff to Cloud rubs me the wrong way and considering he's a guy at death's door his voice sounds normal and fine. At least put some effort in to sound slightly wounded if you're gonna do that. Neurion posted:If this is in the past, why is there a segment of plate missing, I wonder..? I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who was confused and went "Wait, so this scene takes place after the Sector 7 plate fell? That makes it even MORE confusing!" when I first played this game 15 years ago. But yeah as someone else mentioned (and I figured out on a second playthrough) it's just the sector that they never finished building.
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Oct 21, 2013 10:45
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I really like this scene. We just saw the prologue and the hero is dead. But we still got Cloud.
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Oct 21, 2013 10:50
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Twelve by Pies posted:I remember that the anime short (can't remember the name of it) that retold the fight between Zack/Sephiroth at the reactor and the truck ride with Zack and Cloud was really weird in that it was different from both the Crisis Core/original game scenes with the helicopter containing Reno and Rude showing up during the truck ride and shooting at Zack while they were riding. Never figured out what was up with that. That's The Last Order and it was made to promote Crisis Core. So of course every single thing in it contradicts what is actually shown in Crisis Core! Twelve by Pies posted:At least put some effort in to sound slightly wounded if you're gonna do that.f That's probably a result of the dub. Kenichi Suzumura basically sounds like he's gasping out his last breath. (Suzumura was also dating and later married Aerith's voice actress Maaya Sakamoto, which is why the two characters have actual chemistry in the Japanese version.)
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Oct 21, 2013 10:52
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Twelve by Pies posted:I remember that the anime short (can't remember the name of it) that retold the fight between Zack/Sephiroth at the reactor and the truck ride with Zack and Cloud was really weird in that it was different from both the Crisis Core/original game scenes with the helicopter containing Reno and Rude showing up during the truck ride and shooting at Zack while they were riding. Never figured out what was up with that.
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Oct 21, 2013 11:12
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Another thing that helps make Zack a lot more badass in his own game is all the overpowered accessories he eventually has access to, his materia giving all kinds of ridiculous stat boosts, DMW giving him temporary infinite MP and invincibility on a regular basis and him being able to copy special attacks off every character he meets. That, plus his HP, MP and AP can have an extra digit and he doesn't really need a party per se. Then again, exactly how much of the above counts in the in-game narrative is another matter entirely.
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Oct 21, 2013 11:27
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Why didn't they just use a phoenix downs to revive Aeris, right guuys?
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Oct 21, 2013 11:30
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Its amazing what the media you consume can cause in you even many years later. I like a ton of games, but I am really glad in particular that I got to experience this one shortly after release. It was and continues to be one of my favorite games ever.
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Oct 21, 2013 12:26
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Aww, Zack's just a bonehead with a heart of gold.  Of course he dies.
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Oct 21, 2013 13:55
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BioMe posted:Why didn't they just use a phoenix downs to revive Aeris, right guuys?  Phoenix Down's bring you back from being unconscious, not back from the dead.The HP meter is more like endurance.
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Oct 21, 2013 15:45
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Trivia posted:I think Crisis Core's ending was excellent, and did a good job of solving the problem of "how can he (I) be so powerful, but get killed so easily?" I never played Crisis Core, but what the hell is this 'Modulating Phase' thing that keeps coming up? Why the gently caress would you constantly interrupt what's going on for this ridiculous looking slots machine? Also, after Zack biting it, does Cloud end up at the train station very soon after, or is there a larger time gap from what's going on?
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Oct 21, 2013 17:54
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Noah posted:I never played Crisis Core, but what the hell is this 'Modulating Phase' thing that keeps coming up? Why the gently caress would you constantly interrupt what's going on for this ridiculous looking slots machine? Basically it's a slot machine that runs in the background and when you roll 3 in a row it pops up and gives you a limit break.
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Oct 21, 2013 17:57
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Noah posted:Okay, so this confirms it, Tifa hasn't seen Cloud in 7 years. Does this mean that Cloud and Zack were potentially experimented on for 5 years? Dauntasa posted:Basically it's a slot machine that runs in the background and when you roll 3 in a row it pops up and gives you a limit break. Do those movies constantly play, or is that just something for the ending?
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Oct 21, 2013 18:00
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Woebin posted:I think I heard somewhere the The Last Order portrayed the events as explained in the official Shinra report rather than what actually happened. I dunno if that's just bullshit though (probably!). That... actually makes Last Order make a lot more sense. It certainly makes me feel better about the ridiculous retcons at least.
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Oct 21, 2013 18:07
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Noah posted:
That's mostly just something for the ending although occasionally it happens normally and you get a stronger limit from it. I think during normal gameplay you only see each one once and so it's not forcing you to watch the same little skits over and over again.
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Oct 21, 2013 18:08
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What I always took from these events was that Cloud was more heavily experimented on and fully under the effects of Jenova cells. Zack busts them out and dies (if you don't like how he dies I guess you can assume he's a little off his game himself after what they did to him), and Cloud comes to wearing Zack's clothes. He picks up Zack's sword, looks at Midgar, and puts the pieces together that he's Zack and he's going to be a mercenary. It's the moment of confusion that makes his identity blur. Crisis Core is ridiculous in that everything it adds to the story just gives Zack his own Zack, Sephiroth his own Sephiroth, and at the end of the game instead of the above events Zack tells Cloud he has to pretend to be him. I know that's a flippant way to put it, but the game is a lazy sequel with a playable combat system and the only reason anybody thinks it's any good is because it isn't as poo poo as the rest of the mess Square made of FF7. Also, didn't Last Order come out years before Crisis Core was even announced? I remember the events at Nibelheim being way more anime and over the top, with an extended magic swordfight between Zack and Sephiroth, but that in the end he's taken out by a sniper. It was tolerable, though. George fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 18:11
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George posted:What I always took from these events was that Cloud was more heavily experimented on and fully under the effects of Jenova cells. Zack busts them out and dies (if you don't like how he dies I guess you can assume he's a little off his game himself after what they did to him), and Cloud comes to wearing Zack's clothes. He picks up Zack's sword, looks at Midgar, and puts the pieces together that he's Zack and he's going to be a mercenary. It's the moment of confusion that makes his identity blur. Which makes a lot more sense because Tifa discovers Cloud absolutely wigged out at a train station, and he has no idea who he is. The end of Crisis Core seems like this was Cloud's idea all along.
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Oct 21, 2013 18:25
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BioMe posted:I really like this scene. We just saw the prologue and the hero is dead. But we still got Cloud. This is an interesting way of looking at it. Zack is pretty much the sort of guy you'd expect to save the world. He had a far more personal history with the main bad guy, he was charismatic and friendly, he just seemed more like what the world needed as a hero. But nope, he dies, and a head case picks up his sword and takes over the job.
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Oct 21, 2013 18:55
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How the hell did I miss this flashback in all my playthroughs?! I've probably played through this game more than 15 times, and still never seen it. 
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Oct 21, 2013 19:12
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Noah posted:I never played Crisis Core, but what the hell is this 'Modulating Phase' thing that keeps coming up? Why the gently caress would you constantly interrupt what's going on for this ridiculous looking slots machine? Modulating Phase is a gimmick in Crisis Core where you can get limit breaks based on characters Zack has befriended based on his memories of them. In the final battle it begins breaking under the stress of the fight which provides a convenient excuse to do flashbacks to Zack's friends and adds an uncomfortable element to the gameplay as the mechanics you've been using the entire game start to fail on you.
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Oct 21, 2013 19:24
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Rodyle posted:Boy, this spinoff game of a popular JRPG sure does seem pretty polarizing! I'd never have found it now, but ten years ago I had a lot more time and patience with video games, and a lot fewer of them to play. So, for the ones I liked I'd go explore the hell out of them. Being such a plot relevant town, Nibelheim is a natural place to visit to see interesting dialogue for this part of the story. On top of that, on the last visit there, you get a cool Materia (I mean, it's kind of terrible, but it's called Destruct and has the Death spell. That's something, right?). It's out of the way and shouldn't be, but it's not outside the realm of possibility in the least.
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Oct 21, 2013 19:48
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ImpAtom posted:Modulating Phase is a gimmick in Crisis Core where you can get limit breaks based on characters Zack has befriended based on his memories of them. In the final battle it begins breaking under the stress of the fight which provides a convenient excuse to do flashbacks to Zack's friends and adds an uncomfortable element to the gameplay as the mechanics you've been using the entire game start to fail on you. The cutscene where Zack dies was way overdone but the final fight against the Shinra army is one of my favorite gaming moments. The slot machine breaking, the final memory being about Aerith and the music make the fight really memorable.
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Oct 21, 2013 20:07
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Elentor posted:I know there's a bunch of polygons lying right there in a mess, but just seeing the rain pour down on a near-braindead Cloud is just loving tragic to me.  Also, I knew of this cutscene, somehow I went rooting around in Shinra Mansion, maybe because I forgot Vincent during one playthrough and went back to get him or something, and this happened. But I never knew about the Escapee Reports hidden at the back  holy poo poo. This whole cutscene is just bizarre to be there, but I do hear a lot of good things about Crisis Core. The soundtrack is just loving gorgeous to me, from that main theme "Under the Apple Tree" down to some of the battle music.I dunno if I'll ever play it, but I definitely enjoy the soundtrack of that game a lot. FinalGamer fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Oct 21, 2013 |
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Oct 21, 2013 20:09
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I beat this game pretty much once a year... and have done, since the 90's. Never seen that scene before. Holy poo poo.
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Oct 21, 2013 20:41
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Dunno if this has been posted before but here is a collection of many of the prerendered backgrounds in full detail. Some minor spoilers for areas we haven't seen yet. http://imgur.com/a/shRaP
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Oct 21, 2013 23:44
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quote:This is an interesting way of looking at it. I've always found it funny how this game did so much to change the norm on how the main character is handled. Characters like Zack were the standard back then and apparently they were what a hero is supposed to be. Then Cloud came along and challenged the norm to a certain degree. Then Squall came next and helped cement it. Next thing you know, emotionally crippled emo is the new standard hero. It's also interesting how FF6 has a very similar plot and characters to 7. Kind of feels like a prototype. Wonder how long the people at Square were interested in shaking things up.
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Oct 21, 2013 23:52
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TheFattestPat posted:I've always found it funny how this game did so much to change the norm on how the main character is handled. Characters like Zack were the standard back then and apparently they were what a hero is supposed to be. Then Cloud came along and challenged the norm to a certain degree. Then Squall came next and helped cement it. Next thing you know, emotionally crippled emo is the new standard hero. I really get the feeling Cloud would be liked a lot more if he was the only one of his kind. In fact that's how I feel about FF7 as a whole, I love the poo poo out of the game, but it laid the ground work for some truly awful trends in JRPGs.
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Oct 21, 2013 23:57
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TheFattestPat posted:I've always found it funny how this game did so much to change the norm on how the main character is handled. Characters like Zack were the standard back then and apparently they were what a hero is supposed to be. Then Cloud came along and challenged the norm to a certain degree. Then Squall came next and helped cement it. Next thing you know, emotionally crippled emo is the new standard hero. The era when Final Fantasy 7 was released was full of a lot of that in Japanese media. It's kind of reductionist to blame it on any one thing but it was the era when Neon Genesis Evangelion made a huge splash in Japan and suddenly that kind of thing was everywhere.
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Oct 21, 2013 23:59
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I honestly never liked Crisis Core's anything. Gameplay was way too boring and monotonous, the story felt pointless, and the whole thing with retconning the way Zack died was just disgraceful. Also, I think the reason that the Jenova cells didn't take on Zack was because he already had some. Aren't all members of SOLDIER injected with Jenova cells to make them super awesome?
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Oct 22, 2013 00:35
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Noah posted:Also, after Zack biting it, does Cloud end up at the train station very soon after, or is there a larger time gap from what's going on? There's a scene earlier (I don't remember when, maybe in the Lifestream?) where Tifa reveals how she found Cloud in Midgar. He was at the Sector 7 train station under the lamppost, still really out of it and holding the Buster Sword. Tifa runs up and says "Cloud?" and there's the flashes of light and he jumps up and says "That's right, I'm Cloud" and then makes a remark about how it had been five years, which Tifa found confusing. Given that he was still broken at that point, I'd say that Tifa found Cloud not too long after Zack's death. Though it probably took him a few days to drag himself to the train station there given his state of being. George posted:What I always took from these events was that Cloud was more heavily experimented on and fully under the effects of Jenova cells. Zack busts them out and dies (if you don't like how he dies I guess you can assume he's a little off his game himself after what they did to him), and Cloud comes to wearing Zack's clothes. He picks up Zack's sword, looks at Midgar, and puts the pieces together that he's Zack and he's going to be a mercenary. It's the moment of confusion that makes his identity blur. I think I agree with most of this. It's been mentioned that Cloud was probably more susceptible to Jenova's influence because of his low self-esteem and being stabbed through the gut by Sephiroth probably made him physically weak too. Zack was a lot more sure of himself and could resist Jenova's influence more easily. I definitely don't like the whole "You will be my living legacy" thing from Zack though, that's pretty ridiculous. Cloud's whole deal was he felt like a failure and looked up to Zack and so he latched on to that identity from the stories he heard from Zack, it just feels wrong for part of the reason for Cloud to have gotten that identity is "Zack told me to do it." EDIT: quote:Aren't all members of SOLDIER injected with Jenova cells to make them super awesome? No, they're just exposed to Mako energy, Sephiroth and Cloud (actually Zack) talk about it in the Nibelheim reactor during the Kalm flashback. Sephiroth says that members of SOLDIER are showered with Mako, "You're different, but still human." That's also why characters bring attention to Cloud's eyes and say they knew he was in SOLDIER because of them, and they even use the term "Mako eyes" at least once I think. This is just going of FF7 though, I dunno if Crisis Core changed any of that. Twelve by Pies fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 22, 2013 |
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Oct 22, 2013 00:46
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Everyone has already said more or less what I think about the Zack/Cloud thing, so I just wanna add: "SOLDIER 1st Class Cloud York Strife. But please, call me York. Everyone else does." "Did you hear that Zack? Tifa Lockhart. T.L. In the coffee!"
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Oct 22, 2013 01:38
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Twelve by Pies posted:I think I agree with most of this. It's been mentioned that Cloud was probably more susceptible to Jenova's influence because of his low self-esteem and being stabbed through the gut by Sephiroth probably made him physically weak too. Zack was a lot more sure of himself and could resist Jenova's influence more easily. Cloud also isn't a SOLDIER and probably hadn't been exposed to Mako to the same degree that Zack was before they were captured. For as badass and heroic as Cloud was when he threw Sephiroth, he was still just a normal grunt and wouldn't have had any special resistance or tolerance that one of the super elite SOLDIERs would have had. Zack also would have likely had training in resisting mental coercion and other such stuff that Cloud wouldn't have had the benefit of going through.
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Oct 22, 2013 01:44
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Tupperwarez posted:Everyone has already said more or less what I think about the Zack/Cloud thing, so I just wanna add: They're here, Zack. Jenova's here.
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Oct 22, 2013 01:48
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Twelve by Pies posted:I definitely don't like the whole "You will be my living legacy" thing from Zack though, that's pretty ridiculous. Cloud's whole deal was he felt like a failure and looked up to Zack and so he latched on to that identity from the stories he heard from Zack, it just feels wrong for part of the reason for Cloud to have gotten that identity is "Zack told me to do it." This right here. On top of feeling out of character for Zack, just what a loving awful thing to say to anyone. "Hey, there might be a chance you wake up and remember who you are and go back to following your own dreams, but gently caress that you're gonna do my thing now because I'm dying." Man those lines rub me the wrong way. I actually liked the Limit Reel thing breaking down merging gameplay and narrative, and then this came along to sour it. Ugh. Although I guess it is in keeping with everyone in FF7 is hosed up.
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Oct 22, 2013 02:27
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Vanrushal posted:This right here. On top of feeling out of character for Zack, just what a loving awful thing to say to anyone. "Hey, there might be a chance you wake up and remember who you are and go back to following your own dreams, but gently caress that you're gonna do my thing now because I'm dying." Man those lines rub me the wrong way. I actually liked the Limit Reel thing breaking down merging gameplay and narrative, and then this came along to sour it. Ugh. That isn't really how those lines are supposed to play off. The idea is supposed to be that Zack is going "hey, as long as you're alive, then I had purpose and whatever you do after this is my legacy," playing off (admittedly dumb) stuff earlier in the game. Cloud just has a hosed up brain and translates it into "become Zack." (Likewise Zack tells Cloud to take care of Aerith and, welp, good job there Cloud.) CC is one of those games I only played in Japanese so I don't really know how the English version handles it but at least in the Japanese version Zack flat-out tells Cloud "continuing living, you're living proof that my life had meaning as long as you remember me. Follow your own dreams. Also take care of Aerith." There's a line in the video I posted above which translates to "hold on to your own dreams and never stop reaching for them." I think it's supposed to be ironic because Cloud promptly fails at doing every single one of those things, because he's Cloud Strife and he isn't really good at not loving up. Since it's modern S-E writing I'm not sure it was intended that way but it's funnier this way so I prefer to believe it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Oct 22, 2013 |
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Oct 22, 2013 03:05
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Elentor posted:So many people who have played the game but missed that scene. To me it was one of the heaviest scenes in the game, and it wouldn't be complete without creepy experiment reports all over the place. Yeah, it's weird how tucked-aside that scene is. It explains so much. ...but then again, is it really important? Cloud's certainly stopped caring.
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Oct 22, 2013 04:17
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't really how those lines are supposed to play off. The idea is supposed to be that Zack is going "hey, as long as you're alive, then I had purpose and whatever you do after this is my legacy," playing off (admittedly dumb) stuff earlier in the game. Cloud just has a hosed up brain and translates it into "become Zack." I've always read the Crisis Core ending this way too. Cloud is near-comatose and still hopped up on Mako/Jenova withdrawal, making his mind really, really fragile and malleable. Then to see the last friend he had die trying to protect him... well, it just broke him completely. Add to that completely hosed up mental state Zack's dying words and it's not hard to see how Cloud could misinterpret and actually try to BECOME the last thing in his life that gave him hope and confidence. As this LP has pointed out all along, Cloud is a very broken character with a ton of emotional baggage. Hiding behind a new persona, whether a conscious decision or one made in delirium, is the only way he could go on. The fact that he now had Zack's sword and gone through the same bio-engineering made it all the easier. Glazius posted:...but then again, is it really important? Cloud's certainly stopped caring. If finally explains how Cloud got to Midgar after the Nibelheim incident and why he's now injected with Mako and Jenova cells, which were the last two missing pieces of his past. Skyridge fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Oct 22, 2013 |
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Oct 22, 2013 04:50
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