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The show writers are good at character hangout fanfiction, like the scenes Robert and Cersei, Varys and Littlefinger, Tywin and Arya, Oleanna and everybody, etc. They are bad at wholesale inventing new plot elements, because Martin's world is so intricate that when you mess with it things start to get stupid. Like how replacing Edric with Gendry makes conservation of characters sense, but the logistics of getting him to Dragonstone don't. Or Dany in Qarth, or everything Talisa, or how they had to pad out the Kings Landing marriage schemes in Season 3. It's usually an effort to simplify things and balance character screentime but it just proves that Martin had good reasons for writing the way he did.
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Oct 25, 2013 05:30
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jeffersonlives posted:There was a recent article on GRRM that indicated it would be released in 2014, and really if you start thinking about how fast he needs to get things out to not get overtaken, it kind of has to be. if his football teams do terribly that'll probably encourage him to write more this winter. Thankfully, the Giants at least are doing their part just fine.
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Oct 25, 2013 05:30
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computer parts posted:if his football teams do terribly that'll probably encourage him to write more this winter. But if they're doing terribly then he'll be depressed and won't feel like writing because life is miserable and full of pain.
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Oct 25, 2013 05:41
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The showrunners know the entire story so they probably have a better idea about what can be condensed than we do. The only specific instance GRRM has called them out on is killing Mago. And on that note I have a feeling we'll have some kind of revelation about Khal Drogos death in the next book, that Mago had used the arrow wound as cover to poison him or something. TOOT BOOT fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 05:57
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Omnomnomnivore posted:The show writers are good at character hangout fanfiction Except with Stannis for some reason. I'm actually least worried about the ending since the major elements have been foreshadowed so heavily. Martin's problem has been getting all the characters into place again in a sensical way to set it up, and it's only going to be harder for the show with so many characters missing (I think he's also mentioned Loras's brothers as having a role despite being written out of the show), so I'd expect some more irrational links like Gendry's adventures or the Greyjoys' geographic ignorance.
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Oct 25, 2013 06:02
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The show's Red Wedding was so, so much better than the book's. So much more impactful. You don't get 3 chapters of Catelyn whining for weeks. The whole "Don't you want to teach little Ned how to ride a horse" is so poignant. Watching Talisa stabbed in the womb was one of the toughest things I've ever seen. There's stuff the book does better, and there's stuff the show does better. But the scene with Bronn and the Hound almost fighting was so poorly written... the dialogue. But I guess GRMM wrote that episode though, didn't he?
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Oct 25, 2013 07:09
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escape artist posted:The show's Red Wedding was so, so much better than the book's. So much more impactful. You don't get 3 chapters of Catelyn whining for weeks. The whole "Don't you want to teach little Ned how to ride a horse" is so poignant. Watching Talisa stabbed in the womb was one of the toughest things I've ever seen. GRRM wrote the episode. David and Dan wrote that scene. Also disagree on the Show RW being better than the Book RW but whatevs.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:12
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Its a medium thing. You cant really beat riding in Cats head as her entire world crumbles around her, culminating in her completely snapping, with tv. Its not possible.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:16
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PootieTang posted:Stuff like Arya being Tywin's cupbearer or Jeyne Westerling (I think that was her name) being replaced with some other original character (a self insert of one of the shows writers maybe?) are detriments. The Arya/Tywin interactions are some of the best scenes of the series and Jeyne Westerling is a boring character who comes out of nowhere and does nothing interesting, so changing her into an actual character was a good move.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:28
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In It For The Tank posted:GRRM wrote the episode. David and Dan wrote that scene. I believe that was one of the "filler" scenes where they noticed that they got everything they planned and budgeted for and whoops, the episode wasn't long enough. So they filmed that scene in an improvised set at a hallway, around the corner from the throne room or something.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:29
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Final scene of the show red wedding was really terrible it felt like I was watching a school play and some kid stumbled in from off stage to cut her throat after almost forgetting to do so. Hell all the finales are pretty bad for some reason they all feel super amateur compared to the rest of their respective seasons, like they always run out of money right at the end.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:32
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Mr. Unlucky posted:Final scene of the show red wedding was really terrible it felt like I was watching a school play and some kid stumbled in from off stage to cut her throat after almost forgetting to do so. Hell all the finales are pretty bad for some reason they all feel super amateur compared to the rest of their respective seasons, like they always run out of money right at the end. Yeah the bit where Roose does the whole "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" didn't have the climactic impact that I thought it should have. It felt like an afterthought. But the show has improved a lot of things over the books. Some characters that were mediocre or mostly forgettable in the books like Margaery really shine in the show. Maybe they'll actually manage to make Dorne interesting.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:34
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So why do people like the Arya/Tywin scenes besides them involving two beloved characters? It really does feel like fanfiction, there's absolutely no story or setting justification for Arya engaging in witty repartee with Tywin. It's the basic definition of contrived. Arya's entire arc is hosed, totally void of everything that made it dramatically potent in the books. It's like every change they made was to undercut what made those scenes thrilling in the books. No peril, no soup, no Roose, no cold-blooded Arya making her first kill. Season 2 chapped my balls so hard with its incessant sucking. Sexgun Rasputin fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 09:27
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It's fun to watch witty repartee on TV.
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Oct 25, 2013 09:49
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Sexgun Rasputin posted:So why do people like the Arya/Tywin scenes besides them involving two beloved characters? It really does feel like fanfiction, there's absolutely no story or setting justification for Arya engaging in witty repartee with Tywin. It's the basic definition of contrived. I prefer Arya's arc. In the book she jumps straight from frightened child to stone-cold killer who murders Northmen. I like that the show is slowing it down a bit. I thought her first kill with the Frey was pretty well done.
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Oct 25, 2013 09:53
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I prefer Arya's arc. In the book she jumps straight from frightened child to stone-cold killer who murders Northmen. I like that the show is slowing it down a bit. I thought her first kill with the Frey was pretty well done. Arya was always a hardass who wanted to stab people.
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Oct 25, 2013 10:27
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jsoh posted:Its a medium thing. You cant really beat riding in Cats head as her entire world crumbles around her, culminating in her completely snapping, with tv. Its not possible. I guess it depends on what you encountered first. For me, it was the show. I was so annoyed by Cat that when she was killed, it was a relief. She spends literally weeks complaining, pissing off Robb and Edmure and others (myself included). Either way, some rear end in a top hat spoiled it with avatars 30 minutes before the episode aired, so I never got an unsullied Red Wedding experience. Also, I thought Arya's transition in the book was fine. She watched her dad get killed. Then killed a boy to escape capture. She sees Jaqen kill all of those people in the book... Then she kills the one dude on the way out of Harrenhal. Not to mention, how many times did we hear her death prayer? I love Tywin/Arya in the show but I also love Roose Bolton (in the show and book) and I wish he would have gotten more scenes. Season 2 is kind of a clusterfuck. A Clash of Kings is my second favorite book in the series, and Season 2 is just... tough to watch. One thing I didn't like about the show, but I understand the creative decisions, was giving Robb a lot more scenes. escape artist fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 11:02
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The show definitely underplays Roose a lot, but I think in a way the book overplays how hosed up and horrible a person he is and how much a grudge his family has against the Starks, because when he betrays them, I know I personally had been expecting him to turn coat for ages. So I think the show was aiming at maybe a more blindsidey Red Wedding than to have the creepy flaying dude who leeches himself do the thing his family has a long history of doing.
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Oct 25, 2013 14:24
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:GRRM writes on the Marvel sliding scale of time. The next book is always half-done, he's always just about to publish the first half of the next installment so we don't wait too long, etc. On the plus side, he now just releases books that are half done. Just, six years apart.
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Oct 25, 2013 14:33
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jsoh posted:Its a medium thing. You cant really beat riding in Cats head as her entire world crumbles around her, culminating in her completely snapping, with tv. Its not possible. Exactly. And because of that, TV Red Wedding was fundamentally inferior because of it, too.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:17
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Azure_Horizon posted:fundamentally inferior This isn't a thing. The only scene I imagine won't end up better in the show is Tywin's death because you can't have that chapter-ending line.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:33
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I think the show's Red Wedding was much better then in the books. Because show Cat is an interesting character while book Cat is not. So nobody interesting actually died at the Red Wedding in the book.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:41
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It was a great loss for Jinglebell fans everywhere.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:43
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tonberrytoby posted:I think the show's Red Wedding was much better then in the books. Because show Cat is an interesting character while book Cat is not. So nobody interesting actually died at the Red Wedding in the book. Uh, Grey Wind died there, you rear end in a top hat.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:49
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Azure_Horizon posted:Exactly. And because of that, TV Red Wedding was fundamentally inferior because of it, too. The addition of Talisa being womb-shanked immediately and completely cancels out any losses from format.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:51
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Bown posted:This isn't a thing. I'm 100% positive Tyrion will just say it out loud. Have they said anything about Tywin making GBS threads gold in the show?
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Oct 25, 2013 17:53
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I'm 100% positive Tyrion will just say it out loud. Yup, GRRM made sure of it. In Episode 8 of Season 1, Robb tells a Lannister scout to warn Tywin that 20,000 Northmen are marching south to see if he really does poo poo gold.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:58
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:I'm 100% positive Tyrion will just say it out loud. It's probably going to be a case of Varys asking Tyrion what happened afterwards, and Tyrion responds that he just learned that Tywin does not in fact poo poo gold. It would be a killer penultimate scene in next year's finale.
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Oct 25, 2013 18:00
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CPFortest posted:It's probably going to be a case of Varys asking Tyrion what happened afterwards, and Tyrion responds that he just learned that Tywin does not in fact poo poo gold. It would be a killer penultimate scene in next year's finale. Much as I like "Only Cat" or Stoneheart, I think that Tyrion is too much the favorite for the audience to care about anything after his killing Shae and Tywin (or just Tywin).
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Oct 25, 2013 18:13
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Mortabis posted:Yeah the bit where Roose does the whole "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" didn't have the climactic impact that I thought it should have. It felt like an afterthought. But that is what made it so good. It wasn't an overstated dramatic moment, it was quick, underplayed, and a bit awkward. Which is exactly how Roose would have done it.
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Oct 25, 2013 18:26
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tonberrytoby posted:I think the show's Red Wedding was much better then in the books. Because show Cat is an interesting character while book Cat is not. So nobody interesting actually died at the Red Wedding in the book. Cat in the show is made out to be much stupider character since they don't give you any indication why she should want to trust the Lannisters when she freed Jaime. I don't know how non-readers were able to feel any connection with her after that. In the book, Jaime verfied Tyrion's story about the dagger which lets her know Tyrion wasn't just making it up, which means she knew Tyrion didn't try to kill Bran. She also remembers that Tyrion saved her life.
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Oct 25, 2013 18:32
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I prefer Arya's arc. In the book she jumps straight from frightened child to stone-cold killer who murders Northmen. I like that the show is slowing it down a bit. I thought her first kill with the Frey was pretty well done. I think people may overestimate how long it takes for people to go cold like that in such a dangerous environment. Arya is believable in the books (although she obviously has a protagonist's luck.) The show people might have been trying to make her more sympathetic or they decided that to have her kill a man with the coin would be a really keen event to end the season on--which I agree with.
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Oct 25, 2013 19:40
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BrooklynBruiser posted:The addition of Talisa being womb-shanked immediately and completely cancels out any losses from format. Which is then counter-cancelled by the fact that nobody gave a loving poo poo about Talisa. The womb-stab was pretty hosed up, but I also didn't really care about Paper-Thin the Character. If "Roose Change" had been correct at all, then I would agree with you. It wasn't, though. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 20:50
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Azure_Horizon posted:Which is then counter-cancelled by the fact that nobody gave a loving poo poo about Talisa. You may have spent too much time on the internet. Your average tv show watcher loved the gently caress out of her and Robb.
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Oct 25, 2013 20:52
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rypakal posted:You may have spent too much time on the internet. Your average tv show watcher loved the gently caress out of her and Robb. It was a dull romance in the book that was thankfully off-page, and it was even more boring on-screen. I never understood the interest.
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Oct 25, 2013 20:53
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Azure_Horizon posted:It was a dull romance in the book that was thankfully off-page, and it was even more boring on-screen. I never understood the interest. I won't claim it made sense. Also stabbing her in the baby is just going to elicit a physical response from the audience, of nothing else.
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Oct 25, 2013 20:56
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The Tywin/Arya scenes were fine in and of themselves. But also really kind of dumb in context; Tywin being all "What's that? Oh, just the wind." with Arya doesn't make sense given that in an earlier episode he demonstrates the fact that he can clearly describe some other minor lordling from memory (sorry, but I refuse to sperg it up and reference this). I know they would never have met before, but given he's portrayed as a stone-cold badass, and that the Starks are his rivals, AND that he's actively searching for her, him dropping the ball on that given how obvious Arya was being really undermines his effectiveness as an antagonist. More importantly (and this is my second biggest criticism of the show), it meant absolutely no establishing for Roose as a character at all. A couple of people I know who hadn't read the books were basically "Who the gently caress's this guy?" when he showed up. This smacks of half-arsed TV adapatation - streamlining characters and plot arcs might be more cost efficient, but it shows a profound lack of forethought when you then have to grease them up and cram them back in to accomodate future developments which, as a writer, you should know are coming up. (See also: the Reed siblings. I wholeheartedly believe that Osha was being set up as Bran's native companion up until the point the writers realised "Oh poo poo, she's actually dead against all this magic stuff. This doesn't make sense. Save us, GRRM!") My biggest criticism? The Tyrion/Varys/Shae "fish pie" scene. "FNAR, FNAR! Ist funy becos fishes is lyke a bagina!". Whoever thought that qualified as witty, entertaining or just plain old not-totally-loving-puerile should never work in any creative field ever again.
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Oct 25, 2013 20:59
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Azure_Horizon posted:Which is then counter-cancelled by the fact that nobody gave a loving poo poo about Talisa. The womb-stab was pretty hosed up, but I also didn't really care about Paper-Thin the Character. I thought Roose Change was a purposely made conspiracy theory video to throw off non-book-readers?
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Oct 25, 2013 21:03
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BrooklynBruiser posted:The addition of Talisa being womb-shanked immediately and completely cancels out any losses from format. Even knowing what was coming that was so brutal, was a perfect way to start the proceedings. Watching again though, that essay about Dany did show Daario representing war and conquest, and at the end Dany does decide to embrace that part of her. He also suggested, and she ruminated on later, pulling a red wedding of her own. If she did would people see it positively or negatively just from the changed perspective? Also Game of Thrones meets Mean Girls.      
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Oct 25, 2013 21:06
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Obtuse Angol posted:"FNAR, FNAR! Ist funy becos fishes is lyke a bagina!". You wrote this. You wrote this and expect to be taken seriously.
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Oct 25, 2013 21:31
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