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PootieTang posted:Arya. Her entire plotline is almost unrecognizable form the books. I think they didn't want to have her killing so many people or having quite such a brutal story. Also they can't do her stabbing the poo poo out of the guy while shouting about gems in the village and poo poo. Instead of weasel soup and all that other cool stuff we got Tywin and Arya fanfic. Her plot line is basically the same. She doesn't kill as many dudes but the general beat of "goes with Yoren -> gets imprisoned and goes to Harrenhall -> escapes Harrenhall and gets a magic coin -> gets captured by the Brotherhood and then Clegane" is virtually the same.
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Nov 1, 2013 18:43
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computer parts posted:Her plot line is basically the same. She doesn't kill as many dudes but the general beat of "goes with Yoren -> gets imprisoned and goes to Harrenhall -> escapes Harrenhall and gets a magic coin -> gets captured by the Brotherhood and then Clegane" is virtually the same. Honestly I feel like you're kidding yourself with that. The details are the important part, they're what sets apart GRRM's writing from other shlocky fantasy stories. Saying 'it's vaguely kinda the same if you ignore all the actual events in the story and just turn it into a four bullet point summary' is just a cop-out.
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Nov 1, 2013 18:47
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PootieTang posted:Honestly I feel like you're kidding yourself with that. The details are the important part, they're what sets apart GRRM's writing from other shlocky fantasy stories. Saying 'it's vaguely kinda the same if you ignore all the actual events in the story and just turn it into a four bullet point summary' is just a cop-out. The most drastic change from her story is a mercenary band which got moved to the third season because quite frankly they do more there and there's no reason to introduce them. Having some coup is just contrived and it strains believability that one of the head bannermen for Ned Stark wouldn't be able to recognize his daughter after she drew incredible amounts of attention to herself.
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Nov 1, 2013 18:59
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Hey, the coin isn't magic at all, its just a symbol in which power resides because people allow it to. Its the theme of the books.
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Nov 1, 2013 19:01
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computer parts posted:The most drastic change from her story is a mercenary band which got moved to the third season because quite frankly they do more there and there's no reason to introduce them. The most drastic change is her character development. She almost seems neutered in the TV version, by this point book Arya was already a total badass. The TV version almost seems neutered in comparison. And again you're just sort of handwaving away all the little details as 'not important', the details are critical throughout all of ASOIAF, there was a ton of great stuff in the book that got scrapped so that Arya and Tywin could have screen-time together since they are two of the show-audiences favorite characters, It's basically fan-service. The whole thing with Arya and Tywin ultimately goes absolutely no-where were-as the book events are much more pervasive in their importance, and not just on a character level. The fact that you call the book version of events contrived, especially when compared to what happens in the TV show is nothing short of humorous to me. I mean, seriously? Also, I'm pretty sure the show missed out Arya asking if her pet assassin can kill Joffrey, which meant we lost the epic quote: "Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly…but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies." Which is a shame.
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Nov 1, 2013 19:15
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PootieTang posted:The most drastic change is her character development. She almost seems neutered in the TV version, by this point book Arya was already a total badass. The TV version almost seems neutered in comparison. And again you're just sort of handwaving away all the little details as 'not important', the details are critical throughout all of ASOIAF, there was a ton of great stuff in the book that got scrapped so that Arya and Tywin could have screen-time together since they are two of the show-audiences favorite characters, It's basically fan-service. The whole thing with Arya and Tywin ultimately goes absolutely no-where were-as the book events are much more pervasive in their importance, and not just on a character level. The fact that you're calling Arya's actions as "being a badass" is telling. Arya's story is about trauma and how people deal with it. She was the eyes of the common people before we had Brienne to do that. Her whole arc is about how she did bad things and had bad things happen to her and she has to deal with it. Her further development as a killer does not need to be done here, it can be done later on in a much more focused setting on Braavos. Oh, and the Tywin scenes? Those are just as much for Tywin as for Arya. Tywin is at this point in the story more important than Roose Bolton, and Roose will have plenty of time to be characterized later on.
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Nov 1, 2013 19:35
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PootieTang posted:The most drastic change is her character development. She almost seems neutered in the TV version, by this point book Arya was already a total badass. The TV version almost seems neutered in comparison. And again you're just sort of handwaving away all the little details as 'not important', the details are critical throughout all of ASOIAF, there was a ton of great stuff in the book that got scrapped so that Arya and Tywin could have screen-time together since they are two of the show-audiences favorite characters, It's basically fan-service. The whole thing with Arya and Tywin ultimately goes absolutely no-where were-as the book events are much more pervasive in their importance, and not just on a character level. All these things are details. Nothing in it comes even close to the changes needed to make Zombie Talisa instead of Zombie Cat. Arya may be more or less of a "badass" (though that is a terrible way of interpreting the character), but the changes don't alter any major plot lines other than her own. Zombie Talisa instead of Zombie Cat would require major changes to Beric's motivation, the brotherhood without banners, Brienne and Jamie.
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Nov 1, 2013 19:41
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computer parts posted:The fact that you're calling Arya's actions as "being a badass" is telling. Arya's story is about trauma and how people deal with it. She was the eyes of the common people before we had Brienne to do that. Her whole arc is about how she did bad things and had bad things happen to her and she has to deal with it. Her further development as a killer does not need to be done here, it can be done later on in a much more focused setting on Braavos. Telling of what may I ask? Because you can be a badass and still be a traumatized human being. And let's be honest, Arya is a badass regardless of whatever else she is, there's no need to throw a poo poo fit about it as if real people died and I'm somehow insulting their memory. And honestly I don't think you can just shove off her development of a killer off to Braavos, since when she decides to travel across the sea to another continent (which in this historical setting is a much bigger deal than it sounds) to learn to be a master killer is strongly impacted by the fact that she is already on that path. She was already a killer, and at that point her goal was to become a more effective one. Having her go from a much more innocent place to 'I'm going to dedicate my entire life to becoming an assassin' makes a lot less sense to me than the steady development building up to it. And I strongly disagree about Tywin and Roose and their importance. Roose Bolton has a HUGE scene coming up at that point at the red wedding and Tywin's character is already pretty firmly established. We don't really learn anything new about Tywin from his scenes with Arya, whereas a lot of important establishment of Roose's character could have been done in the time he took up. My end point is that the details matter, and ASOIAF is so densely packed and intricate that there had better be drat good reasons for changing stuff on the level that they did in this case. In fact, wasn't this argument started as 'name one example where the show-writers completely changed a characters arc'? And now you're arguing that their changes made the story better? Wasn't the original point that they were willing to replace large amounts of established storyline because they feel that their fanfic is better? Again I'll re-iterate that I do like the show, but there's a point where it changes from 'adaptation' to 'we're going to write our own story for this part because we're better than GRRM/TV audiences are too stupid/emotionally fragile/etc for this part' joepinetree posted:All these things are details. Nothing in it comes even close to the changes needed to make Zombie Talisa instead of Zombie Cat. Arya may be more or less of a "badass" (though that is a terrible way of interpreting the character), but the changes don't alter any major plot lines other than her own. Zombie Talisa instead of Zombie Cat would require major changes to Beric's motivation, the brotherhood without banners, Brienne and Jamie. A terrible way of interpreting the character it WOULD be if that was all I considered her. But that's just one aspect of her character, and it IS an aspect of it as much as you might look down on it as a very pedestrian way of describing her. Yes her character is a lot more three dimensional than just 'badass' but I wasn't trying to describe her character in entirety, it was a piece of shorthand to illustrate that her character had, at that point advanced a lot further than it had in the show. Maybe a poor choice of words but I stand by it. And yeah Talisa would require huge changes to other aspects of the show, but each season of the show has brought us more and more show-only fanfic. Season one was almost a straight adaptation, season two had a few more deviations, and season three had a lot. I understand that some changes are necessary for the medium, but I do fear that the show writers are getting a little cocky with how much they're willing to change to 'improve' the story. PootieTang fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Nov 1, 2013 |
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Nov 1, 2013 19:56
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PootieTang posted:Telling of what may I ask? Because you can be a badass and still be a traumatized human being. And let's be honest, Arya is a badass regardless of whatever else she is, there's no need to throw a poo poo fit about it as if real people died and I'm somehow insulting their memory. And honestly I don't think you can just shove off her development of a killer off to Braavos, since when she decides to travel across the sea to another continent (which in this historical setting is a much bigger deal than it sounds) to learn to be a master killer is strongly impacted by the fact that she is already on that path. She was already a killer, and at that point her goal was to become a more effective one. Having her go from a much more innocent place to 'I'm going to dedicate my entire life to becoming an assassin' makes a lot less sense to me than the steady development building up to it. Arya leaves Westeros because she has nothing left there, not because she wants to become a master killer. quote:And I strongly disagree about Tywin and Roose and their importance. Roose Bolton has a HUGE scene coming up at that point at the red wedding and Tywin's character is already pretty firmly established. We don't really learn anything new about Tywin from his scenes with Arya, whereas a lot of important establishment of Roose's character could have been done in the time he took up. Roose Bolton had a huge scene in the book as well and he had no buildup for it in the third book. Remember, all of your bitching is happening during Season 2, not Season 3.
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Nov 1, 2013 19:59
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Calling elements of the official show fanfic because they don't match the book is quite dramatic of you.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:02
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computer parts posted:Arya leaves Westeros because she has nothing left there, not because she wants to become a master killer. On Arya leaving: It's a mix of both I'd say. She has nothing left, except for the coin that is her ticket to asassinville. If she didn't have the coin, I doubt she would just travel to braavos for a change of scenery. And she was always planning to return, so if she had no reason to go to Braavos she'd most likely remain in Westeros and find some other way of working on her 'list' On Roose: He had waaay more page time in the books, primarily because it's easier to cram in a lot more stuff. Screen-time in the show is at a premium at this point, and I do feel it was majorly wasted on having Tywin and Arya hanging around and wasting time. At least having Roose there would have had a point.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:03
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TOOT BOOT posted:Calling elements of the official show fanfic because they don't match the book is quite dramatic of you. PootieTang posted:(And again I'd like to say I do still like the show and think it's top tier entertainment, in case it sounds like I'm saying the entire show sucks and the books are the word of God that shall never be changed) That's why I put that stuff in there too. And really, what else am I supposed to call it? I think it's a pretty reasonable short-hand to use.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:05
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PootieTang posted:On Arya leaving: It's a mix of both I'd say. She has nothing left, except for the coin that is her ticket to asassinville. If she didn't have the coin, I doubt she would just travel to braavos for a change of scenery. And she was always planning to return, so if she had no reason to go to Braavos she'd most likely remain in Westeros and find some other way of working on her 'list' She had literally no options for things like food or shelter left.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:09
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The fact that people use the words "badass" and "Arya's book plot" in the same sentence shows how poorly many book readers have understood that plot. Arya's storyline is trauma, and the slow decline into a depraved killer. Arya is the equivalent of a modern day inner city child who sees his friends/brothers get their brains blown out while still in elementary school and who finds solace and brotherhood amongst violent, bloodthirsty adults and gang members. Her decline into becoming a killer is not an indication of her adventurous spirit, but a disaster that ruined a well balance girl and made her into a monster. The show is doing Arya's plot great justice. Look at how she is played in Season 1 Episode 1, and then look at Arya's final scene in Season 3. Her voice has completely lost it's affect, and she shrugs bloodshed off like it's something that she sees everyday. Her eyes are almost completely dead, and her posture is no longer that of a little girl, but of a person that basically has become numb to the world. It's awesome, the show-makers are awesome.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:14
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Arya is completely numb when she gets on the boat to Braavos. She's not thinking about becoming an assassin, or getting revenge or anything like that. She isn't even worried about anything. She's just there and the boat is there and she has the coin in her pocket so she just goes. She does it because it's literally the only thing in front of her.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:22
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Anonymous Zebra posted:The fact that people use the words "badass" and "Arya's book plot" in the same sentence shows how poorly many book readers have understood that plot. Arya's storyline is trauma, and the slow decline into a depraved killer. Arya is the equivalent of a modern day inner city child who sees his friends/brothers get their brains blown out while still in elementary school and who finds solace and brotherhood amongst violent, bloodthirsty adults and gang members. Her decline into becoming a killer is not an indication of her adventurous spirit, but a disaster that ruined a well balance girl and made her into a monster. Yeah I feel like this is what people miss the most about Arya's storyline. They always get it half right that she's turning into a future super killer, but forget the path she's taking to get there. In the good version of her life, she would have learned to fight Braavosi style from Syrio for a couple years before running around with Robb and John lopping off whitewalker heads. But, this is the bad version of her life, and she's going down a dark and twisted path that is hardly going to make her a paragon of virtue. She's turning into a super killer anti-hero now, not a super killer heroine.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:24
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Anonymous Zebra posted:The fact that people use the words "badass" and "Arya's book plot" in the same sentence shows how poorly many book readers have understood that plot. Arya's storyline is trauma, and the slow decline into a depraved killer. Arya is the equivalent of a modern day inner city child who sees his friends/brothers get their brains blown out while still in elementary school and who finds solace and brotherhood amongst violent, bloodthirsty adults and gang members. Her decline into becoming a killer is not an indication of her adventurous spirit, but a disaster that ruined a well balance girl and made her into a monster. I still don't see how being a badass and being a traumatised broken human being are mutually exclusive. I never said Arya murders people because of her adventurous spirit, or that she was not the equivalent of a messed up inner city child. To compare it to another good piece of fiction, Omar from The Wire is a heavily traumatized, in many ways completely broken human being. Is he also a badass? Yes. But hey don't let me stop you putting words in my mouth or assuming I don't know how to read because I used the word 'badass' to describe someone who as a child displays a lot more bravery and competence than many adults in the series, despite of how traumatized or broken she might be. rear end.
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Nov 1, 2013 20:25
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Boldor posted:
Who is going to want LittleFingers bastard daughter dead so badly they would pay a faceless man to kill her?
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Nov 1, 2013 21:35
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Your Gay Uncle posted:Who is going to want LittleFingers bastard daughter dead so badly they would pay a faceless man to kill her? Well if she does end up in control of The Vale that's a pretty important position, I could imagine some turn of events that might result in her being in such a powerful position and then naturally making enemies with the Lannisters. Naturally this would require significant plot development from where we are now in the story, but it's not a completely unrealistic possibility.
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Nov 1, 2013 21:38
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Your Gay Uncle posted:Who is going to want LittleFingers bastard daughter dead so badly they would pay a faceless man to kill her? When She is Sansa Stark, first of her name, Queen of the North and Vale?
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Nov 1, 2013 21:40
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rypakal posted:When She is Sansa Stark, first of her name, Queen of the North and Vale? And at that point, Arya can't be sent to kill her because she knows her...
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Nov 1, 2013 21:45
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And at that point she won't be Arya anymore so no worries
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Nov 1, 2013 21:53
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I know they're popular fan theories but 'The hound fights his brother in the form of Robert Strong' and 'Arya is hired to kill Sansa' strike me as pretty cliche.
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Nov 1, 2013 22:20
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Arya becoming an assassin isn't tragic, it's awesome.
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Nov 1, 2013 22:29
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Friendly Factory posted:And at that point she won't be Arya anymore so no worries Only thing I personally don't like about the Arya plot on the show is that when she becomes a proper faceless woman they will have to start using different actors, insteaad of just Maisie Williams.
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Nov 1, 2013 22:36
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Friendly Factory posted:And at that point she won't be Arya anymore so no worries I don't think that's the way that works. If her training made it OK for her to kill people she knew by getting rid of her identity, the sailors wouldn't have worried about making sure she knew their names, and there wouldn't have been that exchange at the Faceless Man meeting where they talk about who knows the target.
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Nov 1, 2013 22:47
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PootieTang posted:(And I'll say again I do like some of the show-only scenes (Varys and Littlefinger talking in the throne room in season 1 probably being my favourite) but some of them are just god-awful like Cersei's POWER IS POWER speech) What's your beef with Cersei's Power is Power faux tete a tete with Littlefinger?
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Nov 1, 2013 23:13
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It seems pretty clear that Arya's identity isn't going anywhere... what with Needle stashed safely away.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:17
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elgarbo posted:It seems pretty clear that Arya's identity isn't going anywhere... what with Needle stashed safely away. Even without Needle, she's warging into cats and having wolf dreams. She's never going to fully lose herself like the FM want her to. But even if she did, she still wouldn't be sent to kill Sansa.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:25
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PootieTang posted:The most drastic change is her character development. She almost seems neutered in the TV version, by this point book Arya was already a total badass. The TV version almost seems neutered in comparison. And again you're just sort of handwaving away all the little details as 'not important', the details are critical throughout all of ASOIAF, there was a ton of great stuff in the book that got scrapped so that Arya and Tywin could have screen-time together since they are two of the show-audiences favorite characters, It's basically fan-service. The whole thing with Arya and Tywin ultimately goes absolutely no-where were-as the book events are much more pervasive in their importance, and not just on a character level. But Jaqen does say that in the show  I think Arya's storyline is the one thats most hurt by GRRM doing the fast foward. Sure, you can show Arya becoming a Faceless (Wo)Man, but you can tell his initial idea was to have her leave as a (traumatized, yet still retaining some naivete) little girl and returning as a remorseless killer instrument.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:32
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TOOT BOOT posted:I know they're popular fan theories but 'The hound fights his brother in the form of Robert Strong' and 'Arya is hired to kill Sansa' strike me as pretty cliche. Are these theories for any reason other than they would be kickin' rad? I'm pretty obtuse but I didn't see anything in the books to suggest these things would happen.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:34
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Are these theories for any reason other than they would be kickin' rad? I'm pretty obtuse but I didn't see anything in the books to suggest these things would happen. As far as I know the Arya/Sansa one has no literary support. The Hound/Mountain one only has Bran's dream as any sort of "support" but it's still really far fetched.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:36
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Maarak posted:What's your beef with Cersei's Power is Power faux tete a tete with Littlefinger? I can't speak for the other guy, but Littlefinger threatening Cersei to her face and almost dying for it remains one of the worst scenes added to the show.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:51
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chellesandcheese posted:As far as I know the Arya/Sansa one has no literary support. The Hound/Mountain one only has Bran's dream as any sort of "support" but it's still really far fetched. No, there's also the idea that it could fit thematically with valonqar prophecy - Cersei's undoing would come about from a trial by combat between her champion and the little brother. Gregor is her champion, and Sandor is in the service of the faith now, which could give him an opening into a trial by combat - possibly the one we will see very soon, though I honestly think she will win that one and this will come later. And honestly, what else is Sandor going to do in these books? His only reason for living was to one day see his brother's head off, and now he believes that opportunity has been stolen from him. The moment that word gets around that the Mountain is back, you better believe the Hound is coming out of hiding.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:57
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Mike N Eich posted:But Jaqen does say that in the show Are you sure? I was certain they missed it. I'll have to keep an eye out for it on my next re-watch. In It For The Tank posted:I can't speak for the other guy, but Littlefinger threatening Cersei to her face and almost dying for it remains one of the worst scenes added to the show. This. Littlefinger is supposed to be smart. He basically turns into a comic book villain in that scene, purposefully being clearly villainous and threatening towards her, and then Cersei makes her guards do a little dance and should really have had Littlfinger murdered at the next opportunity since he made his intentions extremely clear and she KNOW'S that Littlefinger is a smart and resourceful guy but she doesn't because reasons. Also I take great offense to the line 'power is power' because I mean Jesus Christ who wrote that and thought it was in any way cool or witty?
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Nov 2, 2013 00:06
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Zilkin posted:Only thing I personally don't like about the Arya plot on the show is that when she becomes a proper faceless woman they will have to start using different actors, insteaad of just Maisie Williams. Hey, any excuse for CGI right? Gotta use that budget.
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Nov 2, 2013 00:11
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SoroScrew
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PootieTang posted:Are you sure? I was certain they missed it. I'll have to keep an eye out for it on my next re-watch. Nobody thought that. Thats the point. Cersei is a preening idiot with no concept of subtlty. c.f "and where is House Reyne now?"
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Nov 2, 2013 00:21
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Nobody thought that. Thats the point. Cersei is a preening idiot with no concept of subtlty. c.f "and where is House Reyne now?" That scene takes it to a cartoonish level. And Cersei isn't even an idiot, she's just no-where near as smart as she thinks she is. She was never a gibbering retard like she is in that scene. And Littlefinger too, is not supposed to be as stupid as he is in that scene. GUARDS DO A DANCE LOOK AT HOW POWERFUL AND FABULOUS MY GUARDS ARE.
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Nov 2, 2013 00:25
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PootieTang posted:She was never a gibbering retard like she is in that scene. If you haven't read ADWD you probably shouldn't be in this thread. :P
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Nov 2, 2013 00:26
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hobbesmaster posted:If you haven't read ADWD you probably shouldn't be in this thread. :P That's a little unfair, she only goes full idiot after she has a huge breakdown when her son is murdered, her dad is murdered (both, she believes, by her brother) and then her entire kingdom is usurped by a much prettier, smarter young woman who turns her remaining son against her.
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Nov 2, 2013 00:31
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