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verybad posted:I think a lot of people's problems with the kid murderer theory isn't that it's completetely implausible, but more that it's not a very interesting story and reeks of something that would be written just for the shock factor of it - it would basically end up as just being misery porn. On the other hand, people who are fronting that theory are likely doing it because they think this was a murder mystery, and they think they've solved it -- which is all well and good, but I don't think the show was trying to sell it as such: the closing scene of episode 2 (?) is playing up the horror of finding your loved one murdered, then the next episode picks up with its effects on the group and then closes with Carol just straight up saying "yes" when asked if she did it, there's no mystery aspect to any of it. The question isn't whodunit, it's where do we go from here? I don't have the episode at hand here, but it just twigged in my head. Rick checks the door and notices the blood on it. From what I remember, he is bending over, as if the hand print on it was lower than that it should be for an adult. Not sure if this was talked about the last few pages, but can someone check if its a print low enough for a kid or not on it. Could be wrong. My take is that Carol took the kids and made them help kill them. Or saw the one who cried killing her dad try to make up by killing the infected, and stepped in to complete/claim it.
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Nov 8, 2013 15:42
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Verybad's completely right here. The girl doesn't even approve of killing zombies, why would she kill humans? What would be the point of her speech about becoming one being change akin to growing up? She's acted entirely as a pacifist in every scene so far. That's why it would be a dumb twist. Carol forced them to murder? How do we get there?
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Nov 8, 2013 15:51
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happyhippy posted:I don't have the episode at hand here, but it just twigged in my head. Rick checks the door, notices a smear on the handle, tries his hand over it, makes a frowny face -> zombies at the fence, mezmerized by some contraption, Carol with her hands dirty at the pump, Rick comes outside, poo poo goes bad, PEWPEWWOOSHBANG -> [scenes with Daryl&Co, Herschel&Glenn] -> final scene with Rick & Carol: Rick looks over Carol from above, "It's a stupid thing you did... going out there like that", "Is there anything you wouldn't do...", finally asks her straight up: "Yes" -> credits. Make of that what you will.
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Nov 8, 2013 15:52
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I think there should be more naked zombies. At least in the initial spread, lots of people would have got sick in hospital gowns, or even got the fever, gone home and got to bed, and then turned. Obviously they couldn't show all the nudity on a show like this, but the amount of intact clothes is funny,
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Nov 8, 2013 16:37
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verybad posted:Is that you tacitly admitting that you think it would be kind of poo poo writing, too? Notice: I'm saying I think it would be really lovely if the show went there, and I think that this season has been better than that. I guess "temper your expectations" is good advice for watching a 4th season of a zombie series, but surely we shouldn't want it to meet our low expectations? I honestly think part of the charm of the show is that I never know what's going to happen (because the show is not above making really dumb things happen). Slow zombies really aren't that scary to begin with, so they're certainly not scary after 30 or 40 episodes, right? And the show's not a big plot / performance thing like a Breaking Bad, so we're not watching it for that. I think a lot of people are just here for the spectacle of the thing. If you look at how it's fared critically, the show has won 2 Emmy's for prosthetic makeup, which seems fair all things considered.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:45
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They made it pretty obvious how the virus got there: the first people sick were fence cleaners, and the first bloody eye zombie was on the other side of the fence.
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Nov 8, 2013 16:54
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What is most important is that Carol is taking responsibility and has been exiled. It is not nearly as important to wonder who actually killed and burned those two.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:08
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Surlaw posted:Verybad's completely right here. Her father just died and she and her sister were all alone in the world, while all her interactions with the badass prison people were the prison people giving lessons/telling her how she needed to toughen up. She also latched onto to Carol as a mother figure and probably thinks Carol was disappointed in her when she couldn't go through with putting her father down. Maybe she thought Carol was abandoning her when she was put in quarantine and doing what she previously backed out of would please her. If it turns out not to go that way, fine. I'm not gonna preemptively write off the rest of that storyline this season and say it's gonna suck if it doesn't go how I predicted it would.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:31
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savinhill posted:Her father just died and she and her sister were all alone in the world, while all her interactions with the badass prison people were the prison people giving lessons/telling her how she needed to toughen up. She also latched onto to Carol as a mother figure and probably thinks Carol was disappointed in her when she couldn't go through with putting her father down. Maybe she thought Carol was abandoning her when she was put in quarantine and doing what she previously backed out of would please her. She also talks about people "coming back" like that's a good thing when she's talking to Carol early in the last episode, so why would she want to stab them in the head? I'm not saying it's impossible but if that's the twist they're going with it would drag down what is lining up to be a pretty drat good series because it doesn't really make sense based on what characters have said and done previously.
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Nov 8, 2013 17:40
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Bedurndurn posted:I honestly think part of the charm of the show is that I never know what's going to happen (because the show is not above making really dumb things happen). Slow zombies really aren't that scary to begin with, so they're certainly not scary after 30 or 40 episodes, right? And the show's not a big plot / performance thing like a Breaking Bad, so we're not watching it for that. I think a lot of people are just here for the spectacle of the thing. I wish they would do more 'never seen before' behaviors like when that one gutted Dale and then tore open his abdomen 
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Nov 8, 2013 17:56
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Man, it's not 'the twist', Carol did it, the show's not being the least bit ambiguous about it. I thought people were joking at first, in a 'who let the zombies in' sort of way. Maybe people are just desperate for Carol not to be a 'bad guy'?
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Nov 8, 2013 18:01
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It's probably the little sister. Not the older one. The older sister feels like a diversion. I could totally be wrong and it's probably Carol.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:06
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You guys are starting to talk about an alternative show that doesn't exist.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:07
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The babby did it! Michonne knows and is covering up for her: That's why she was crying when she held her. It's a pretty plausible twist when you think about it, I mean, The Simpsons pulled it off.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:28
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Personally I just assumed Karen was a buddhist monk upset at Council decisions.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:37
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I dont see what the big deal is over who waxed people who were gonna die anyways. Nobody really gives a poo poo except Tyrese and the whole thing has turned him into a giant emo babby so gently caress him. Cant wait for Sunday 
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Nov 8, 2013 18:37
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Theglavwen posted:Man, it's not 'the twist', Carol did it, the show's not being the least bit ambiguous about it. I thought people were joking at first, in a 'who let the zombies in' sort of way. Maybe people are just desperate for Carol not to be a 'bad guy'? 
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Nov 8, 2013 18:38
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I'm just trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they spoke the kid killer theory out loud right after the murders were revealed and now they're too embarrassed to admit it was probably wrong so they're doubling down. People who just get an idea in their head and can't let it go. But I also think there's a lot of other factors like people who are still hate watching the show and people who don't pay attention and just write their own stories as they go.
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Nov 8, 2013 18:47
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I'm glad they introduced the bloodeye zombies, because regular zombies were getting boring. Finally there is a sense of "oh poo poo, GET AWAY FROM IT!" again, when you never know who's going to be sprayed with zombie-flu. The fence situation was a terrible way to make the zombies a threat again, the zombie-flu is a lot more pressing and interesting.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:17
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They've set up a Chekhov's child, repeatedly called attention to her knife, locked her in with the most vulnerable prisoners, and just exiled "mom." They've spent a lot of script real estate getting her to that place, and so far the stabbings are the most convenient fit for her arc. That's not to say a better one won't (or hadn't already) present itself, but it's kind of lovely to dismiss this as another "who let the walkers in?"
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Nov 8, 2013 19:19
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The child being the killer is a lovely twist and hopefully won't happen. It doesn't make any sense no matter how many people want it to make sense. Carol becoming hardened by her situation is a far more compelling story and character development. If they end up having one of the children be the killer it will a pretty big misstep.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:22
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What about the rats being fed from inside the fence? How much did we see of the person? I can't really remember, but I'm imagining an adult figure with gloves.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:24
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Baldbeard posted:What about the rats being fed from inside the fence? How much did we see of the person? I can't really remember, but I'm imagining an adult figure with gloves. That being one of the kids makes sense. I'm not saying it's the best way to go, but at least it makes sense.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:25
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Deadpool posted:That being one of the kids makes sense. I'm not saying it's the best way to go, but at least it makes sense. I saw it could be someone who still supports the Governor and feeding them rats so more zombies will come and be able to cause more destruction.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:30
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steinrokkan posted:The babby did it! Michonne knows and is covering up for her: That's why she was crying when she held her. Baldbeard posted:What about the rats being fed from inside the fence? How much did we see of the person? I can't really remember, but I'm imagining an adult figure with gloves. 
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Nov 8, 2013 19:30
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savinhill posted:Her father just died and she and her sister were all alone in the world, while all her interactions with the badass prison people were the prison people giving lessons/telling her how she needed to toughen up. She also latched onto to Carol as a mother figure and probably thinks Carol was disappointed in her when she couldn't go through with putting her father down. Maybe she thought Carol was abandoning her when she was put in quarantine and doing what she previously backed out of would please her. The issue is though the girl didn't go into quarantine until after the murders took place, and she volunteered to go into quarantine on her own. So for your theory to work, that abandonment thing has to go which basically gives us no motive but "SHOCKING PLOT TWIST DUN DUN DUN" cheesy type writing that got this show a reputation for having poo poo writing.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:31
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bobkatt013 posted:I saw it could be someone who still supports the Governor and feeding them rats so more zombies will come and be able to cause more destruction. This would be even worse than Evil Murder Child. It makes sense for the girl who spent two episodes talking about how zombies are people too feeding them out of pity. It would be lame as hell to have Governor spies in the camp. Honestly I'd be happiest if we never heard from him again. A True Jar Jar Fan fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 19:32
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I assume that was the girl although them leaving it a mystery certainly leaves the door open for anything. But it seems to make sense that she was feeding the zombies that earlier she was talking to. I also don't really expect that to be a major thing. I think it was just a setup for the fence crisis later. But I could be wrong. I don't think the kid is the killer and I think that theory is based in no evidence or reality presented on the show. But that doesn't mean I think the girl doesn't have a story to be told. I think there's an interesting story already present in her being in that quarantine section without a parental figure to look to. With her messed up ideas of life and death (and undeath) and what Carol drilled into her about killing and what people might now counter to explain why Carol's gone that kid is all mixed. I have no idea what she'll do if she's confronted by a situation like being alone in a room with a very sick person who seems on the verge of death. "Secret Murderer!" isn't the only option for a story for this girl. Its also not the one that best fits what we've been shown and told, in my opinion. It just feels like the first one people thought of so they're married to it now.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:34
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Surlaw posted:This would be even worse than Evil Child. Why? The Governor is still out there and we know he is going to try to kill everyone? He has used zombies before as foot troops and if he has an army at this point its very tiny since he killed them all.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:35
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bobkatt013 posted:Why? The Governor is still out there and we know he is going to try to kill everyone? He has used zombies before as foot troops and if he has an army at this point its very tiny since he killed them all.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:42
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bobkatt013 posted:Why? The Governor is still out there and we know he is going to try to kill everyone? He has used zombies before as foot troops and if he has an army at this point its very tiny since he killed them all.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:45
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Redundant posted:As a saboteur/spy what is the endgame in feeding zombies? It seems like there are dozens of way more effective things that could be done from inside the prison that would require equal or less effort. It's possible that it's one stage of some big plan that I'm just not seeing but right now it seems like a lot of effort for basically no reward. The Governor is secretly Baldrick from Blackadder.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:49
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moths posted:They've set up a Chekhov's child, repeatedly called attention to her knife, locked her in with the most vulnerable prisoners, and just exiled "mom." Oh, no they haven't. Or rather, the only way for her 'set-up' to be plot relevant isn't for her to be some sort of crazy murderer; she's already fulfilled Chekhov's requirements by illustrating the effects the culture is having on the younger generation, and through providing for Carol's emotional framework. Any excess attention they've drawn to her having a knife has just been in terms of Carol's 'everybody must be armed' fixation, and locking her in the quarantine area, and exiling Carol, have nothing to do with the murders that happened previously. It's, at best, reverse justification, she must have committed the murders, otherwise it would be completely out of the blue for her to murder again! But we've no reason to suspect that she will murder again, unless we already suspect her of committing them in the first place. Circular and silly, really. It's just completely out of the girl's character, in every way; even her trying to toughen up and prove herself makes no sense, even on top of it goes entirely against every principle she's espoused, and continues to espouse, because she proves nothing by committing it in secret, unless, I guess, she ran off and proudly told Carol immediately afterwards. It is, however, completely in Carol's character, and in line with all of her behaviour and actions this season. She's admitted it, and even if that initial admission was suspect, which it wasn't, she pretty clearly continued owning up to it in the next episode, pushed the conversation herself, went out of her way to try and justify her actions to Rick and, presumably, to herself, and the episode showed her doing it. Maybe I'm way off base, but the degree to which you have to go out of your way to treat this as an honest, serious theory, and not as best a potential DRAMATIC PLOT TWIST from nowhere, puts it perfectly in line with 'who let the zombies in' for me.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:51
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verybad posted:The Governor is secretly Baldrick from Blackadder. Unlikely, not enough turnips involved.
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Nov 8, 2013 19:54
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I don't really believe the kid did it, but come on, don't tell me that cough didn't look fake as poo poo. ''I don't fell good.'' PAUSE ''cough''
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Nov 8, 2013 19:55
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ravenkult posted:I don't really believe the kid did it, but come on, don't tell me that cough didn't look fake as poo poo. Yeah, I actually initially thought that she wanted to be with the sick people when they turn, maybe because she wants to be turned herself? It was jarringly fake, enough so as to seem intentional. edit: but then again, she does look sweaty and feverish, so maybe it was just lovely acting, I dunno. verybad fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 19:59
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ravenkult posted:I don't really believe the kid did it, but come on, don't tell me that cough didn't look fake as poo poo. She's not an especially good actor.
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Nov 8, 2013 20:00
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Theglavwen posted:Maybe I'm way off base, but the degree to which you have to go out of your way to treat this as an honest, serious theory, and not as best a potential DRAMATIC PLOT TWIST from nowhere, puts it perfectly in line with 'who let the zombies in' for me. "Little girl, you need to toughen up and get better at stabbing dying people's brains!" "Oh my god who stabbed these dying people in the brains?!" A long, convoluted path. I guess framing it in terms of murder makes it sound like a shocking impossibility, but how about as a misapplication of taught skills?
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Nov 8, 2013 20:30
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verybad posted:
No, I am saying that most all of the "shocks" in the zombie genre (especially into 4 seasons of it) are exactly that: jump-out-at-you shocks. I am ok if they don't stick with a generic storyline and have whacky things like a little girl turned murderer and Carol taking the fall for her because of ~~motherly love~~. It is not farfetched, and has a bit of reinforcement to the idea, as others have repeatedly written but you've chosen to ignore or handwave. happyhippy posted:I don't have the episode at hand here, but it just twigged in my head. I pointed that out a while back in fact. Surlaw posted:Verybad's completely right here. "This guy agrees with me. Clearly that means that he is "right"". Surlaw posted:Verybad's completely right here. What would be the point of ANY of the built-up backstory of the girl? Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Nov 8, 2013 |
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Nov 8, 2013 20:44
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moths posted:"Little girl, you need to toughen up and get better at stabbing dying people's brains!" "I did. The person who told the little girl to stab dying people's brains in the first place." It just seems bizarre to me that this whole "Child Killer" theory is based on the idea that the kid was being instructed on how to kill by the confessed killer... but we then look towards to the pupil rather than the teacher? Even though the pupil has never actually done it to the best of our knowledge? And the teacher confessed and defended it like 6 times? We're hearing hoofbeats and expecting zebras when there's a horse standing right there.
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Nov 8, 2013 20:44
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