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fleshweasel posted:I think we can all agree that Marie sucks. Um gently caress you and no. Marie is awesome 
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Nov 11, 2013 07:17
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The only thing that doesn't own about Marie is that they didn't expand on the kleptomania thing as much as I think they could've.
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Nov 11, 2013 07:44
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She's a pathological liar, kleptomaniac, and tends to nag people until Skyler herself broke down and started screaming at her. This is totally awesome and if you think she's a bitch you're a misogynist. Got it. What the gently caress is wrong with you people?
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Nov 11, 2013 07:50
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Why does everyone keep giving Walt poo poo about getting into a conflict with Gus? Wasn't the only reason for his falling out with Gus is because he run over the two drugdealers who murdered a kid?
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Nov 11, 2013 08:23
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Nope, Walt did that partly to get Jesse on his side so he could kill Gus. Walt thought Gus was going to kill him and replace him with another cook, and I also think he was too ambitious to work for somebody else. People also give Walt poo poo for not comparing about collateral damage when blowing up the nursing home and poisoning Brock. That also left a power vacumn that made room for the Aryans.
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Nov 11, 2013 13:10
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fleshweasel posted:I think we can all agree that Marie sucks. SpiderHyphenMan fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 14:06
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fleshweasel posted:I think we can all agree that Marie sucks. No. Marie is actually great. I really don't get how anyone can say any character on this show "sucks" or puts off the wrong "vibe." Almost all characters (including the tertiary ones) in this show were amazingly well-written and acted.
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Nov 11, 2013 14:39
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nnnnghhhhgnnngh posted:She's a pathological liar, kleptomaniac, and tends to nag people until Skyler herself broke down and started screaming at her. This is totally awesome and if you think she's a bitch you're a misogynist. What's your opinion of Walter White? He steals, lies constantly to his family to the point Skyler called him on it, manipulates everyone, cooks meth and murders a shitload of people. Bitch?
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Nov 11, 2013 14:56
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Strawman posted:What's your opinion of Walter White? He steals, lies constantly to his family to the point Skyler called him on it, manipulates everyone, cooks meth and murders a shitload of people. Bitch? But I like his vibes.
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Nov 11, 2013 15:30
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I love Marie and in the later seasons I think Betsy Brandt gave Cranston a run for his money. That said, she was definitely written to be pestering and annoying early on, but you know she meant well so you let it slide...kind of like a real sister?? The show is probably porn for those who hate her tho. She probably had the widest "innocent-bystander to punishment-from-Walt's-actions" ratio out of all the adults. Hank's obsession with Heisenberg did him in, Skyler broke bad with the money laundering, and Andrea relapsed with a shady dude that was clearly bad news for her and her son. Marie? I can't come up with anything.
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Nov 11, 2013 15:32
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Strawman posted:What's your opinion of Walter White? He steals, lies constantly to his family to the point Skyler called him on it, manipulates everyone, cooks meth and murders a shitload of people. Bitch? 
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Nov 11, 2013 15:42
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nnnnghhhhgnnngh posted:Please everybody forgive this crass display of misandry, but I don't like him very much at all!
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Nov 11, 2013 16:13
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Strawman posted:What's your opinion of Walter White? He steals, lies constantly to his family to the point Skyler called him on it, manipulates everyone, cooks meth and murders a shitload of people. Bitch?
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Nov 11, 2013 16:33
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beep by grandpa posted:I love Marie and in the later seasons I think Betsy Brandt gave Cranston a run for his money. That said, she was definitely written to be pestering and annoying early on, but you know she meant well so you let it slide...kind of like a real sister?? She stole that spoon!
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Nov 11, 2013 17:31
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Count Chocula posted:Nope, Walt did that partly to get Jesse on his side so he could kill Gus. Walt thought Gus was going to kill him and replace him with another cook, and I also think he was too ambitious to work for somebody else. People also give Walt poo poo for not comparing about collateral damage when blowing up the nursing home and poisoning Brock. That also left a power vacumn that made room for the Aryans. Not really before the thing with Jesse and the kid Gus/Walt actually got along pretty well and it seemed Gus was perfectly content to just wait until Walt died.
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Nov 11, 2013 17:36
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Skyler-as-writer discussion reminds me...I could have sworn that there would be some sort of reveal to Skyler being the author of Walt's confession tape. Not only as a throw back to her writing the script for the gambling problem thing, but also because for once Walt is actually a convincing liar. There's probably no real reason for this to be included in the story, but I could have sworn that it would come back to get her (even more than it did).
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Nov 11, 2013 18:46
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I actually like Marie, and frankly I judge people entirely on how they talk about Marie. I know that if the person I'm talking to doesn't have the same opinion on her as I do, that they just don't understand the show and that they are 'one of those people' who's opinions are wrong by default.
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Nov 11, 2013 19:56
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Timeless Appeal posted:I kind of like the idea that season 1 is an unreliable narrative where the characters are being presented how Walt views them more than they actually are. Interesting idea. I like this. I will definitely keep this in mind next time I re-watch the show.
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Nov 11, 2013 20:13
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If you don't love Marie by the end of the show, then man I don't even know anymore. When she tells Walt to just save them all the trouble and kill himself? Goosebumps. Sure, early on she's written basically to show the normal way most people "break bad" to deal with the boredom of suburban life. For her, it was shoplifting for thrills or making up stories at open houses (such a bizarre thing, btw). When contrasted with Walt, it's pathetic in comparison, but on the other hand Marie's actions never lead to any deaths. Her caring for Hank during his recovery is the best part of her arc. You can see she just wants the best for him and you understand why he's pushing her away and it's all so tragic and I was terrified that they were going to divorce or something, but seeing Hank turn his situation around and watching them work through their relationship troubles was amazing. Marie/Hank functions as a foil for Walt/Skyler, showing the proper way to deal with the lovely times is through love and communication rather than secrecy and manipulation. Basically, Marie owns, purple owns, gently caress the haters.
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Nov 11, 2013 20:13
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overtone posted:Interesting idea. I like this. I will definitely keep this in mind next time I re-watch the show. Why don't you just close your eyes and imagine your own show if you are going to dismiss everything you don't like as unreliable narrator?
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Nov 11, 2013 20:15
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Count Chocula posted:Nope, Walt did that partly to get Jesse on his side so he could kill Gus. Walt thought Gus was going to kill him and replace him with another cook, and I also think he was too ambitious to work for somebody else. People also give Walt poo poo for not comparing about collateral damage when blowing up the nursing home and poisoning Brock. That also left a power vacumn that made room for the Aryans. IIRC things were cool between Walter and Gus until Walter ran over the two drug dealers to save Jesse. It's only after that incident that Gus undertook to get Jesse on his side and get rid of Walter. I'm not defending Walk. He definitely crossed the Moral Event Horizon when he let Jane die. Just saying it looked like him saving Jesse from the drug dealers seemed like a selfless act. Pimparoo fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 20:24
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Blind Melon posted:Why don't you just close your eyes and imagine your own show if you are going to dismiss everything you don't like as unreliable narrator? I said I was just going to keep it in mind, not apply it as some black and white 100% rule to everything that happens on the show.
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Nov 11, 2013 20:34
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Pimparoo posted:I'm not defending Walk. He definitely crossed the Moral Event Horizon when he let Jane die.
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Nov 11, 2013 20:39
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The whole "not saving" thing is kinda made null and void by the fact that Walt was the one to tip her on her back to begin with. By accident, sure, but that very much puts the whole incident in "Walt killed her" territory. I guess you can make the case for "junkie was gonna overdose and die on her own anyway" but with what we saw, Walt's actions directly lead to her death. He killed her. The heroin was just the catalyst.
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Nov 11, 2013 20:44
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WampaLord posted:The whole "not saving" thing is kinda made null and void by the fact that Walt was the one to tip her on her back to begin with. By accident, sure, but that very much puts the whole incident in "Walt killed her" territory. Then so did Jesse's since he's exactly the reason she relapsed when she did.
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Nov 11, 2013 21:17
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Redundant posted:I disagree with this quite a bit, mainly because the idea of being irredeemably evil just doesn't jive with my take on the show. I always saw the show as depicting people not as good or evil by design, more that we are defined by our decisions. Just as a "good man" can break bad and decide to do bad things a bad guy could just as easily turn good given the right motivations, and that's before I even address the fact that not saving someone is a big grey area of morality. I didn't want to open up another can of worms with that post. I'm primarily interested in addressing whether Walter saving Jesse from the drug dealers was a selfless act. Also, whether the subsequent falling out with Gus was due to that act. Now that I unintentionally opened up another can of worms I'll address it. Sure, the show takes an existentialist view of morality i.e actions define the person , and no one is inherently good/evil to begin with. What I meant to say is that Walter letting Jane die puts him squarely in the antagonist territory. On paper letting someone die is not as bad as killing them. Yet all earlier of Walt's questionable acts can be rationalized as being motivated by self preservation or "trying to leave money for his family". Letting Jane die was the first evil act that Walt committed out of petty spite. It's the first act that is absolutely impossible to sympathise with on any level. Pimparoo fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 21:23
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No it wasn't purely out of "spite", her death not only protected him and his family from her threats of blackmail, it also saved Jesse from killing himself with heroin.
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Nov 11, 2013 21:26
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Pimparoo posted:I didn't want to open up another can of worms with that post. I'm primarily interested in addressing whether Walter saving Jesse from the drug dealers was a selfless act. Also, whether the subsequent falling out with Gus was due to that act. It wasn't entirely spite. Jane was going to take Jesse away from Walt.
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Nov 11, 2013 21:26
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DNova posted:It wasn't entirely spite. Jane was going to take Jesse away from Walt. I would say that motivation makes Walt's actions seem even worse. beep by grandpa posted:No it wasn't purely out of "spite", her death not only protected him and his family from her threats of blackmail, it also saved Jesse from killing himself with heroin. She and Jesse were taking off. Those threats and blackmail were of no concern to Walt once they left. As for Jesse killing himself with heroin -- I don't think Walt cared about that. He only cared about keeping Jesse around. Pimparoo fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 21:31
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WampaLord posted:The whole "not saving" thing is kinda made null and void by the fact that Walt was the one to tip her on her back to begin with. By accident, sure, but that very much puts the whole incident in "Walt killed her" territory. Pimparoo posted:I didn't want to open up another can of worms with that post. I'm primarily interested in addressing whether Walter saving Jesse from the drug dealers was a selfless act. Also, whether the subsequent falling out with Gus was due to that act. e: Pimparoo posted:She and Jesse were taking off. Those threats and blackmail were of no concern to Walt once they left. As for Jesse killing himself with heroin -- I don't think Walt cared about that. He only cared about keeping Jesse around.
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Nov 11, 2013 21:40
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Pimparoo posted:I would say that motivation makes Walt's actions seem even worse. You're right, Walt should have just taken the two using heroin addicts that just met each other at their word at the risk of literally everything. I don't get the second part of your post- Walt cared about keeping Jesse around but NOT if he was alive, so keeping around dead Jesse was in the cards? What? 
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Nov 11, 2013 22:00
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Jane wasn't some lifer. She could turn her life around. My shrink was telling me about an ex-heroin user who's now a good mom, and hell Lou Reed just died way later than I guy who wrote odes to heroin should ('Sweet Jane' synchs up nicely with Jane's death). Sure, it was going the way of Requiem for a Dream or Candy (an Aussie film with a similar plot) but if Walt cared about Jesse he would have checked them both into rehab or got rid of their stash or something. He wouldn't let a girl die. Just because Walt does things out of a twisted sense of love or possessiveness does not make them good actions. It just makes him controlling and and abusive. Redundant posted:I disagree with this quite a bit, mainly because the idea of being irredeemably evil just doesn't jive with my take on the show. I always saw the show as depicting people not as good or evil by design, more that we are defined by our decisions. Just as a "good man" can break bad and decide to do bad things a bad guy could just as easily turn good given the right motivations, and that's before I even address the fact that not saving someone is a big grey area of morality. I posted two essays upthread that argue the opossite, that Breaking Bad takes place in a defined moral universe. Given that killing Jane lead to Q making the sky rain vengeance down upon Albequrque, I'd say that it's clear we are meant to judge Walt. He didn't NEED to do anything he did. He could have got Jane into rehab, or told her dad she was using again, or pretty much anything. Maybe I'm biased because I loved Jane from the second she met Jesse, and Krysten Ritter's so great I've even watched a bit of Don't Trust the Bitch in Apt 23. But Walt watched Jesse's girlfriend choke on her own vomit. That's horrible. It's clear that Grey Matter offering Walt the job in season 1 was Vince Gilligan's way of telling us that Walt didn't NEED to sell drugs to survive, even with America's hosed up medical costs against him. And then later on, Jesse points out that Walt had made more money then he'd calculated he'd need, and Walt won't stop. He uses the same "why stop when you're already making money?" logic that Todd does. Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 22:41
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Count Chocula posted:I posted two essays upthread that argue the opossite, that Breaking Bad takes place in a defined moral universe. Given that killing Jane lead to Q making the sky rain vengeance down upon Albequrque, I'd say that it's clear we are meant to judge Walt. He didn't NEED to do anything he did. He could have got Jane into rehab, or told her dad she was using again, or pretty much anything. Maybe I'm biased because I loved Jane from the second she met Jesse, and Krysten Ritter's so great I've even watched a bit of Don't Trust the Bitch in Apt 23. But Walt watched Jesse's girlfriend choke on her own vomit. That's horrible. The Grey Matter offer has been talked about a lot in this thread but I still think an argument can be made that Walt never intended to survive when he started making meth, he just wanted to leave his family in a financially stable position after he died. Even if he took the job at Grey Matter and survived for 5 years (which was deemed as basically impossible at the time) his family would still have been rocketing to the poor house when he eventually died so you could argue that Walt felt he still needed to make meth to earn the big bucks. At some point Walt started to enjoy it though so carried on long after it was necessary which was another choice Walt made in his downward spiral into being the bad guy. I guess I just can't view characters and their morality as rigid and unchanging in a show that makes such a massive deal about choices. e: Just in case it's needed, I don't think any of those decisions are "right" or "moral" or whatever. Just explaining that I don't view the shows morality as a digital "on or off" type thing that is unchanging, I view it as analogue with each choice edging people slightly one way or the other. Tech analogies!!! Redundant fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 23:40
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Redundant posted:Even if he took the job at Grey Matter and survived for 5 years (which was deemed as basically impossible at the time) his family would still have been rocketing to the poor house when he eventually died so you could argue that Walt felt he still needed to make meth to earn the big bucks. Why, because they couldn't provide the perfect college experience for their kids? Flynn and Holly can take student loans like everyone else, and the mortgage on the house can be paid off in the normal amount of time. Walt's idea of providing for his family is greedy as gently caress, more like "make sure my children never want for anything." If he had the health insurance from Gray Matter there was no chance of medical debt, so what exactly would send his family "rocketing" to the poor house? Basically, I feel like there's very little to "redeem" Walt from the choice of giving up that job. It was his clear out and he gave it up because of greed/pride, choosing instead to manufacture hard drugs and take on a life of crime. E: VVV You keep missing my point. I'm not claiming Walt was evil from the very beginning and beyond redemption. I'm saying he's evil because here is literally the perfect thing he can do to redeem himself and he throws it away. He continues to do this throughout the show, reinforcing how evil he has become. The show is "Mr. Chips to Scarface" and everyone understands that Scarface is a loving evil person, right? WampaLord fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Nov 11, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 23:43
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WampaLord posted:Why, because they couldn't provide the perfect college experience for their kids? Flynn and Holly can take student loans like everyone else, and the mortgage on the house can be paid off in the normal amount of time. Walt's idea of providing for his family is greedy as gently caress, more like "make sure my children never want for anything." e: quote:You keep missing my point. I'm not claiming Walt was evil from the very beginning and beyond redemption. I'm saying he's evil because here is literally the perfect thing he can do to redeem himself and he throws it away. He continues to do this throughout the show, reinforcing how evil he has become. ex2: You seem really worked up about this and are acting like I am saying Walt is fine all the way through the show despite the fact that I called him "evil" and "the bad guy" in the post you quoted. It's almost like you didn't read it and just attacked one point in it and even then didn't provide a counterpoint as to how an already struggling family would survive without the primary breadwinner. ex3: I really don't want this to devolve into another pointless round of bickering, I'm not arguing that my interpretation is the only one that counts but it seems like you intentionally misread my post in order to attack a single point in it. Redundant fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 11, 2013 23:47
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Redundant posted:
Son I don't think you know how things work in this thread. It goes like this; someone posts an opinion, and then you accuse them of being a misogynist/racist/dog rapist/etc then you win the argument. Redundant posted:ex3: I really don't want this to devolve into another pointless round of bickering, I'm not arguing that my interpretation is the only one that counts but it seems like you intentionally misread my post in order to attack a single point in it. Yeah you definitely haven't been paying attention to how this thread works so far.
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Nov 12, 2013 00:31
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Redundant posted:saying he was evil from that point onwards is effectively saying he was always evil. Again, not what I'm saying. And I apologize if I came across as hostile, that's not what I'm going for. We can have civil discourse in this thread, and I'm certainly not accusing people with different opinions of being awful monsters (though the Skyler haters, I can't understand that. Ir really does reek of latent misogyny.) Morality is complicated. This, we can all agree on. Rarely is anyone perfectly good or perfectly evil all the time, we often live in that gray area in between. I would hope most of us are, for lack of a better phrase "Mostly good." You go through life, maybe you speed in your car, smoke some weed, or steal a few diamond tiaras, but ultimately you try not to cause any lasting harm to anyone. Walt starts off as a morally "mostly good" person and ends the show as a morally "mostly evil" person, again, I think we can all agree on this fact. This doesn't mean he's an inhuman monster, but he has done some monstrous things (murder, making literally hundreds of pounds of meth, poisoning a child, etc.), and those things are sufficiently awful that there can be no "redemption" for Walt in my eyes. Even if somehow his cancer was cured and he spent the next 25 years as Literally Jesus, healing the sick through magic, he would not be redeemed for his actions. That said, he's not all bad. He still gives Jesse the chance to kill him, his rant over the phone to Skyler is attempting to save her, and he tries to get the money to his family. These are relatively good actions as far as Walt is concerned, but they ring hollow in terms of redemption for his previous sins because again, they're all about making sure Walt feels better. Basically, Walt has gone through his entire life putting the concerns of others over his own, which we generally view as a moral thing to do. Over the course of the show, he decides to put his own concerns over those of others, to the point of letting an innocent person die because it would make his life better. Remember how Walt's family ends up at the end of the show. If Walt's entire goal was to provide for his family, he's done a pretty loving terrible job of it. I think the Whites would have been much better off had he taken that Gray Matter job, which is why ultimately you can trace the entire downfall of Walt to that one prideful/greedy decision. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Nov 12, 2013 |
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Nov 12, 2013 00:36
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quote:The scene with the job offer happened in something like episode 3, saying he was evil from that point onwards is effectively saying he was always evil. Yes, Scarface is a bad guy but Walt didn't go from Mr Chips to Scarface in 3 episodes. I also don't fully understand how taking a job that would have been a stall at best to the problems his family would have faced in the future is a perfect chance to redeem himself. Initially, I sympathized with Walt because the hosed up American healthcare system made cancer treatment so expensive (there was that comic going around about how BB couldn't take place in Canada). But refusing that job out of pride or spite or not wanting to take 'handouts' removes a large part of that moral justification. Initially, BB presents the 'Falling Down' scenario of a 'weak' man becoming 'strong' through violence. But then it shows how destructive that is to everybody around him, and maybe extends it into a critique of Randian hyper-capitalism. I'm sick of trying to explain this logically, though. Just look at how Jesse goes from being a fun loving, drug using loser to a haunted shell as the series goes on. That's on Walt. Hank goes from a kinda jerkish cop to angry and obsessive. That's on Walt. Skylar is held prisoner in her own home, and has to lie to her kids about why. That's on Walt. Even 'bad' characters like Mike have their lives ruined by him. Vince called Walt HIMSELF a 'cancer' in an AV Club interview, and that's pretty clear as the show goes on. I might be reacting so strongly because of how Walt's constant Satanic manipulation of language reminds me of some people in my own life, but its clear he hurts people around him. Especially poor Jesse Pinkman. This is seperate from him making meth, which I can't be bothered to condemn since I'm pretty anti-drug war. Has anyone seen Weeds, which has a similar premise? How does it compare?
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Nov 12, 2013 00:49
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WampaLord posted:He still gives Jesse the chance to kill him, his rant over the phone to Skylar is attempting to save her, and he tries to get the money to his family. These are relatively good actions as far as Walt is concerned, but they ring hollow in terms of redemption for his previous sins because again, they're all about making sure Walt feels better. I didn't read those things as him trying to make himself feel better, I think he was genuinely trying to do some "right" things. He did save Jesse's life after all, and giving Jesse a chance to kill him was more about what he owed Jesse, morally, not about being a martyr. He did attempt to save Skyler in that phone call, and his giving her the lottery ticket in person, while it could be seen as a bribe to get her to let him see Holly one last time, I think he really wanted to give her emotional closure by showing up and letting her witness his change, admitting his true motives (and exhibiting his tenderness with Holly). And the money he left for Flynn definitely benefits Flyn more that Walt, however "good" it may have made Walt feel to set it up for him. He planned it very carefully so it would work after he died, which is maybe not someone looking to just feel good would have done. I didn't see the finale as Walt seeking to feel good or looking for redemption, I saw it as him accepting the truth of his course of action over the last two years and making an effort to do all he could as a dying man for those he loved best (the ones who were still alive that is). In other words, Walt had really had time to think while he was in that cabin, and everything after that was a result of his regret and his determination to reverse even a small part of the damage he had done.
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Nov 12, 2013 01:00
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Count Chocula posted:Has anyone seen Weeds, which has a similar premise? How does it compare?
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Nov 12, 2013 01:04
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