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Can we talk a little about Todd? Todd's the scariest character in Breaking Bad, and that's a strong praise to levy considering you've got the gamut of Tuco, his Cousins (who are practically supernatural), Gus Fring's calculated menace, Mike's simple brute force, Walt's schemes and Jesse's wild recklessness, Todd is alone the eeriest character in the show. Maybe it's just because we don't ever see him beyond Walt and Jesse really, so we have no idea what's going on in his head, but he strikes me as a pretty boy sociopath who hasn't realized what he is. His attitude towards killing and his casualness about it rings in contrast to every element of himself, from the way he speaks to the way he stands and moves around. Half the time he sort of just slumps around like a doe-eyed twit. So is Todd evil? Is he just kind of simple and doesn't really understand the impact of what he's happening? Is he just a super Nazi, bred in meth tanks in order to slaughter on command? What the gently caress is the deal with Todd and...and why did Andrea have to die? Andrea didn't even do anything at all...
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Nov 12, 2013 19:53
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fleshweasel posted:GRRM was surprised by people's reaction to Darkstar. Sometimes writers have a different impression of a character internally than a lot of the audience. I think it's a habit of TV writers to not realize the holes they put the wives of criminals into. Anyway, I think it's pretty out there to *hate* Skyler at any point. It's also out there to think she's some exemplary "Strong Female Character." She's just whatever until she starts getting sucked into Walt's scheme and then her corruption and internal moral battle makes her interesting. Badger, Skinny pete, and Saul were likable in the first two seasons.
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Nov 12, 2013 19:53
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PootieTang posted:Badger, Skinny pete, and Saul were likable in the first two seasons. Badger is one of my favourite characters in the show despite only playing a small part. Why have you gotta go and gently caress with people at a support group though, Brandon? Not Cool, bro. (alternative partially remembered Badger quote: Riverdance!!!)
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Nov 12, 2013 20:04
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I think Todd is a combination of Asperger's Syndrome and being raised by literal Nazis.
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Nov 12, 2013 20:50
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I think Todd is a combination of Asperger's Syndrome and being raised by literal Nazis. I think it's more than just Asperger's. Asperger's is on the lower end of the spectrum, they're not usually capable of cold blooded murder.
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Nov 12, 2013 21:02
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PootieTang posted:I think it's more than just Asperger's. Asperger's is on the lower end of the spectrum, they're not usually capable of cold blooded murder. Is it confirmed he's got Asperger's? Holy poo poo, come to think of it, he really does act like somebody with it. The way he talks. That's probably what weirded me out the most. He reminds me of my brother (who has the Asperger's).
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Nov 12, 2013 21:33
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PootieTang posted:I think it's more than just Asperger's. Asperger's is on the lower end of the spectrum, they're not usually capable of cold blooded murder. I would imagine they are not also typically raised by Nazis, not to mention the horrendous implication that being raised by Uncle Jack was a solid step toward normalcy.
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Nov 12, 2013 23:31
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BottledBodhisvata posted:So is Todd evil? Is he just kind of simple and doesn't really understand the impact of what he's happening? Is he just a super Nazi, bred in meth tanks in order to slaughter on command? What the gently caress is the deal with Todd and...and why did Andrea have to die? Andrea didn't even do anything at all... I thought about this for a while, and I think he's creepy for the same reason that Anton Chigurh from "No Country for Old Men" is creepy: he's a guy with no sense of humor whatsoever. It sounds weird, but I really think it checks out. They both have no imagination, no sympathy, no ability to do anything but function. It trips our psychopath sensors, big time. If Todd were some normal kid, his attraction to Lydia wouldn't strike us as odd. But it does-- everyone talks about how weird and disconcerting it is. Or his last words to Andrea. Of course it's personal! It's personal as all poo poo! But the utter absurdity of his statement doesn't even register to him. Cosmik Slop fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 01:41
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I honestly feel like Todd is Vince Gilligan making fun of people who still support Walt unconditionally by that point and showing them how awful they are. Like, here's the kind of person that looks up to Walter White. Are you so sure that you're still rooting for Walt now?
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Nov 13, 2013 01:44
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PootieTang posted:And again I have to ask, what about women who don't like Skylar? I know you can easily write me off by saying I'm a man therefore not liking this individual woman must mean I'm a misogynist, and I don't really take too much offense at that, but your post also says that my mother and sister are both misogynists who hate women. And frankly that does offend me. You're argument was summed up as a "vibe" which can't be interrogated and is worthless to everyone else in this thread, so yes: your opinion about disliking Skyler and not using the word bitch has been noted. Redundant posted:Windmill, bitch! passionate dongs fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 02:11
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passionate dongs posted:It's true: people can have prejudices against a group they identify with. I have no idea about your mom and sister, but there is no point of contention here. Just like you disliking Skyler doesn't necessarily mean you're part of the large group of people who have been banned and probated because can't stop posting about how much they hate Skyler. I may be misreading this completely, but are you seriously implying that people who hate Skyler are misogynists even if they're women themselves? 
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Nov 13, 2013 02:24
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Azurrat posted:I may be misreading this completely, but are you seriously implying that people who hate Skyler are misogynists even if they're women themselves?
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Nov 13, 2013 02:26
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Azurrat posted:I may be misreading this completely, but are you seriously implying that people who hate Skyler are misogynists even if they're women themselves? Women can have misogynistic thoughts/views. People of color can have racist thoughts/views. These things are shocking statements? I feel like people hear "misogyny" and assume you have to be a literal "I HATE ALL WOMEN" stereotype to be considered one. Kind of like how no one's a racist anymore unless they're literally a KKK member.
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Nov 13, 2013 02:27
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WampaLord posted:I honestly feel like Todd is Vince Gilligan making fun of people who still support Walt unconditionally by that point and showing them how awful they are. http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2013/09/last-nights-breaking-bad-that-mindbending-phone-call.html quote:In my earlier post about this season’s opening episode of “Breaking Bad,” I mentioned that Todd looked very much like the prototypical Bad Fan of “Breaking Bad”: he arrived late in the story, and he saw Walt purely as a kick-rear end genius, worthy of worship (like Jesse, he called him Mr. White). Two episodes later, my hunch was confirmed when Todd excitedly re-told the entire Great Train Robbery desert caper to his Nazi uncle, including every single awesome, suspenseful detail but one: that pesky kid he’d shot. Bad Fan recapping in a nutshell! It was a short scene, but one that underlined what we all knew: if you ignore the dead kids, son, you are watching “Breaking Bad” wrong. My problem with the Aryan Brotherhood is that they acted like Sons of Anarchy refugees. That show has a habit (I'm only on season 4 so this might change) of using racists and Neo-Nazis to make SAMCRO look better by comparison. They also tend to have endless boring shoot-outs. Has anyone gone through and re-watched Vince's X-Files episodes? Count Chocula fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 04:20
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passionate dongs posted:Yes. internalized racism, internalized sexism, Uncle Tom, etc. Is that really so hard to believe? Not at all, that's just a hell of a stretch to make when the context is a TV show. "You don't like a character that is somewhat unpopular but belongs to the same demographic as you? You loving RACE TRAITOR  "That's fairly reductio ad absurdum, I admit, but really man, it's a TV show. The way she's written makes her seem unpleasant. People aren't calling her a bitch because they hate women, they're calling her a bitch because they don't like her specifically. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but to throw a blanket like that over everybody who doesn't like a fictional character is a little silly. Frank Horrigan fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 05:22
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Except for the fact that there's disproportionate hatred directed at THIS TV character far beyond what's justified by what she does or how she acts in the show, and much of it manifests in gendered language (the constant 'Skylar is a bitch' Facebook page) or even on MRA sites. And that hatred gets directed at the ACTRESS, too. I'm a straight white dude who used to think he was smarter than everyone; I can get why people sympathize with Walt. But he isn't 'The King', like some of my Facebook friends said, and he isn't some super-alpha protecting his family. Even that famous "I am the one who knocks" quote was a BLUFF - he was weak all through season 4 and he was bullshitting Skylar, who was smart enough to notice that maybe living in a house with a drug lord could be dangerous.
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Nov 13, 2013 05:29
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Skylar is unpopular because of all the characters in the show, she is generally the least entertaining. At least Marie steals some poo poo or something crazy like that. Skylar spends the entire first two seasons being an absolute and complete bore to watch. She had no good scenes, she had no good plotlines to follow, and on top of that she largely just detracted time from crazy criminal shenaningans or Walt and Jesse cooking meth and making you laugh. Skylar gets solid in Season 3 and late Season 2 when they actually give her something relevant to do. Her dicking around with Ted wasn't really related to anything and didn't really go anywhere. Ted becomes a vegetable due to his own cowardice and just falls out of the story except to make Skylar look guilty. And too many scenes between Skylar and Walt either involved him lying to her (and badly at that!) or just involve banal family business or worrying. That's it. You can say there's mysogyny or whatever at work and yeah, for some people that may be, but the fact is is that Skylar is dull, and that makes all of her negative traits shine all the more clearly. To be fair, Season 1 has its share of problems with the characters, and even Walt and Jesse are kind of a tough sell at first--especially Jesse, before they established that his parents were enormous jackasses and he's not just an ungrateful abusive son. There's just too much faffing around in the early days--a lot of just sort of "in-between" moments that are meant to develop a little of the characters or family dynamic, but lack comedic or dramatic interest, and largely just serve to stir poo poo around until it finally boils.
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Nov 13, 2013 07:28
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It had been awhile since I'd read the OP, and had misremembered the weird little "Walt sounding like Mike" kerfuffle as "Gus sounding like Gale." So I just rewatched all of Season 4 trying to spot where in the world anybody could have heard that. Oh well! At least I got to rewatch Season 4.
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Nov 13, 2013 07:28
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I think Todd is a combination of Asperger's Syndrome and being raised by literal Nazis. Not Asperger's. His actions are more consistent with Antisocial personality disorder. In simpler terms: he is a psychopath.
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Nov 13, 2013 07:48
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Todd never struck me as a full on psychopath, although perhaps I don't have a full enough understanding of what that means outside of typical movie parlance. He shows something approaching genuine affection for Lydia, he didn't seem to take any special pleasure out of killing; when he tells Walt and Jesse that he killed the kid because he thought he had to, he genuinely seems to believe it, which is frightening in its own way. His murder of Andrea also seemed purely utilitarian, and he does choose both to reward Jesse with ice cream and to let him sleep without the tarp. Not to say that he isn't hosed in the head, but my impression was that he was either dim or somewhere on the low end of the autistic spectrum, and the rest was the mental damage that comes from being raised by a bunch of deranged nazis in a life of crime. He seemed a deliberate counterpart to Jesse: the boyish demeanor without the nice middle class upbringing. On the other hand, you could interpret his kindly behavior towards the imprisoned Jesse as a symptom of obsessively controlling behavior, which (I believe) is supposed to be a classic symptom of psychopathy, so there's that.
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Nov 13, 2013 08:05
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That bugged me, since he was so one-dimensional.quote:And too many scenes between Skylar and Walt either involved him lying to her (and badly at that!) or just involve banal family business or worrying. There was still tension there. Will Skylar find out? Do we want her too? What's with Walt suddenly getting horny and even trying to sexually assault her, like in A History of Violence? I sorta wish we'd had a reapproachment between Jesse and Skylar. A sorta Walter White support group. It feels like there wasn't much sex or relationship business in BB compared to other shows, especially in the later seasons.
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Nov 13, 2013 08:06
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Fuligin posted:Todd never struck me as a full on psychopath, although perhaps I don't have a full enough understanding of what that means outside of typical movie parlance. Funny you say that as he's pretty much a Dexter style psychopath except he does not enjoy killing. Really, the defining trait is lack of normal empathy or remorse. Pimparoo fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 08:21
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Dexter's another anti-hero show that BB ruined for me (that and how bad it got). I was amazed when Hank turned out to be a competent detective.
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Nov 13, 2013 12:10
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Fuligin posted:Todd never struck me as a full on psychopath, although perhaps I don't have a full enough understanding of what that means outside of typical movie parlance. He shows something approaching genuine affection for Lydia, he didn't seem to take any special pleasure out of killing; when he tells Walt and Jesse that he killed the kid because he thought he had to, he genuinely seems to believe it, which is frightening in its own way. His murder of Andrea also seemed purely utilitarian, and he does choose both to reward Jesse with ice cream and to let him sleep without the tarp. Not to say that he isn't hosed in the head, but my impression was that he was either dim or somewhere on the low end of the autistic spectrum, and the rest was the mental damage that comes from being raised by a bunch of deranged nazis in a life of crime. He seemed a deliberate counterpart to Jesse: the boyish demeanor without the nice middle class upbringing. I don't think he sees human beings as actual human beings. He seems to regard everything with the sort of emotional distance you'd handle a dog or cat or something. His affection for Lydia is kind of like a childish fondness for a nice cat--you don't have any particular reason to like it, but its presence is pleasant. He treats Jesse like you'd treat a pet dog.
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Nov 13, 2013 15:14
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BottledBodhisvata posted:I don't think he sees human beings as actual human beings. He seems to regard everything with the sort of emotional distance you'd handle a dog or cat or something. His affection for Lydia is kind of like a childish fondness for a nice cat--you don't have any particular reason to like it, but its presence is pleasant. He treats Jesse like you'd treat a pet dog. Would you give a dog AmeriCone Dream for a meth batch well done? Yall are being too drat hard on him. loving icecream, man.
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Nov 13, 2013 15:18
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" His murder of Andrea also seemed purely utilitarian" It's amazing how many people in this thread and characters on the show can justify the murder of innocents because they were 'neccesary'. Maybe that's the real split between Walt/Todd/Gus and Jesse/maybe Mike (since he didn't let Lydia kill his people). The former have a 'utilitarian' view of murder, though the only utility they maximize is the utility to themselves. The latter see murder as an evil they commit - listen to Jesse's speech in 'Problem Dog' - but not one they can justify. And then fans either accept Walt/Gus/Toods character's rationalizations (which went back as far as Combo's killing, since Walt didn't care too much) or let the murders affect them. I feel like I'm late to the party on all this. Was there much great discussion or quotes from when the show was running?
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Nov 13, 2013 15:22
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Azurrat posted:Not at all, that's just a hell of a stretch to make when the context is a TV show. "You don't like a character that is somewhat unpopular but belongs to the same demographic as you? You loving RACE TRAITOR
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Nov 13, 2013 15:36
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Yeah, my mum played pro football in the UK when she was younger but still thinks men can do a lot of things women can't physically and mentally. She's just got lovely old fashioned views on gender, she isn't a massive sexist.
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Nov 13, 2013 15:39
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I really wish people had pitched Breaking Bad to me as a black comedy instead of as a dark and gritty examination of man's soul. I mean, it's both those things, but if I had heard more about how loving funny the show could be, I think I would have checked it out while it was still airing. Even Ozymandias had Walt rolling the barrel past his pants from the pilot and "sorry for your loss."
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Nov 13, 2013 16:20
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I really wish people had pitched Breaking Bad to me as a black comedy instead of as a dark and gritty examination of man's soul. I mean, it's both those things, but if I had heard more about how loving funny the show could be, I think I would have checked it out while it was still airing. This show was probably 40/60 comedy /(drama/thriller/horror). Maybe even 35/65. It had a lot of really loving funny moments but not enough that you could tell your friends it's a straight up black comedy. It was that and so much more. There were laughs, but sometimes it was slow and building up to something, and a lot of times it felt like your heart was going to pop out of your chest. It was a really, really good show. I miss it.
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Nov 13, 2013 17:21
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I really wish people had pitched Breaking Bad to me as a black comedy instead of as a dark and gritty examination of man's soul. I mean, it's both those things, but if I had heard more about how loving funny the show could be, I think I would have checked it out while it was still airing. You spend half your day moderating one of the shittiest threads in TVIV and you didn't have time to check out the single most critically acclaimed series of all time because it wasn't pitched to you well enough?
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Nov 13, 2013 17:37
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PriorMarcus posted:You spend half your day moderating one of the shittiest threads in TVIV and you didn't have time to check out the single most critically acclaimed series of all time because it wasn't pitched to you well enough?
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Nov 13, 2013 18:21
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Count Chocula posted:There was still tension there. Will Skylar find out? Do we want her too? See, I felt the opposite. In my mind there was no way Skyler was going to turn Walt in, so the tension that you experienced was my monotony waiting for Skyler to finally catch on, drop the antagonist spouse role, and move on to whatever was next.
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Nov 13, 2013 21:26
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passionate dongs posted:I didn't make that argument. Pootietang's point was "how can women be misogynist?" and I simply said they could. I never made the argument you're saying I did. Not my entire point. I still find it retarded that the argument 'Skylar gets more hate than other TV characters, ergo it MUST be misogyny!' is retarded because it assumes that Skylar is the only woman on TV. Or maybe just the only 'strong' woman on TV. Which is just laughable. And I also like how the other supporting argument for everyone being a misogynist is 'well they COULD be so ergo they MUST be!'
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Nov 13, 2013 22:02
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A lot of other strong women on TV got their fair share of hate too (see the negative reactions to Emilia Clarke saying she wouldn't be naked anymore in Game of Thones for a recent example), but we're talking about Skyler because this is the Breaking Bad thread. Also, because the amount of hate was much larger than previous cases, but that might just be a reflection of how popular Breaking Bad is.PootieTang posted:And I also like how the other supporting argument for everyone being a misogynist is 'well they COULD be so ergo they MUST be!' It's really hard for me to find an actual reason for Skyler hate that's not bound up with a bit of misogyny. I'm not saying everyone who hates Skyler hates all women, but I think anyone who hates Skyler should examine exactly why they hate her. "Hate" is also a pretty strong word to use for a fictional character. I think Skyler's character is hypocritical, due to agreeing to launder Walt's meth money, but that doesn't make me hate her. E: Basically my ultimate question is - Why hate a woman who's been put in the worst circumstances and is trying to deal with it as best as she can? That's literally Skyler's situation, she is a hostage for a good chunk of the show and yet people hate the hostage? It's bizarre. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 22:08
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I know this is tired and probably pointless, but can we please spell Skyler's name correctly? Breaking Bad's first episode was in 2008 and people still can't (or refuse to) spell out the character's name. Come on.
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Nov 13, 2013 22:21
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WampaLord posted:A lot of other strong women on TV got their fair share of hate too (see the negative reactions to Emilia Clarke saying she wouldn't be naked anymore in Game of Thones for a recent example), but we're talking about Skyler because this is the Breaking Bad thread. Also, because the amount of hate was much larger than previous cases, but that might just be a reflection of how popular Breaking Bad is. I always take the insinuation of misogyny as an accusation of ignorance, because when you get down to it that's what it really is. And I don't hate Skylar, I just think she's badly written and poorly acted. So because you personally don't share this same opinion on the character, and you can't seem to understand any reason why anyone would not agree with your views, you just say 'Well I guess the people who disagree with me are just ignorant and motivated by prejudice'? And do you not see how using accusations of misogyny are such a cheap move? For one, a lot of this forum has major issues with any hint of the drat thing, you may as well accuse someone of being a communist during the cold war. It's a really easy and cheap way to get everyone who toes the party line to immediately jump to your side or risk being lumped in as some kind of misogyny sympathizer. Second, it's pure ad hominem, you're just making a personal accusation with no real basis in order to, I'm not sure really, invalidate what I've said as just being hate speech? And third, to even argue against it is to try and prove a negative. What am I supposed to say to the accusation 'well you just disagree with me because you're a misogynist? I shouldn't have to argue that I'm not a misogynist just for having a negative or contrary opinion on a single fictional character, or risk my whole argument just being thrown to the side. If you don't understand someone else's opinion, then you probably shouldn't make sweeping generalizations and personal attacks based on it. Now, if someone else said 'I hate Skylar because she should just stay in the kitchen and let Walt bring home the bacon' THEN you might have a basis for saying it's misogyny, but that's not an opinion I share, you see? EDIT: WampaLord posted:E: Basically my ultimate question is - Why hate a woman who's been put in the worst circumstances and is trying to deal with it as best as she can? That's literally Skyler's situation, she is a hostage for a good chunk of the show and yet people hate the hostage? It's bizarre. I think your misinterpreting the problems I have with the character. I don't dislike Skyler as a person. I dislike her execution, and her use as a fictional character. Again the writing staff said that Skyler gave them the biggest trouble and it's easy to see why. It's like saying 'how can you hate Tommy Wissau's character in the room? he's been betrayed by the whole world!' PootieTang fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 22:26
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Count Chocula posted:" His murder of Andrea also seemed purely utilitarian" I'm not sure how you interpreted that as supporting the murder of an innocent character, but don't let that stop you from smugging out. e: Although I have no problem with Skyler as a character, it's not that hard to see why people might dislike her without necessarily being women haters. As noted, she's ultimately a hypocrite, although I think most of us are inclined to be generally sympathetic to her position at the end of the series. She cheats on Walt, and since we're more inclined by default to support Walt (as the main character) that's liable to color opinions as well, even if a little adultery is small potatoes compared to what he's getting up to. Personally I was totally won over to her when she finally loses it at Bennecke for being a self righteous moron. Fuligin fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 22:31
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Three things: 1 - I am not accusing you of being a misogynist. I'm sure you are a decent human being to all the women in your life. I am saying that your hatred for Skyler has some of it roots in misogyny. This is the difference between "Hey, you are a sexist" and "Hey, that thing you said was pretty sexist." 2 - PootieTang posted:And I don't hate Skylar, I just think she's badly written and poorly acted. I feel this is essentially a false claim. Breaking Bad is objectively once of the best written and best acted television shows in history, why would one of it's main characters be badly written and poorly acted? Please explain why you feel she is badly written and poorly acted. 3 - PootieTang posted:Now, if someone else said 'I hate Skylar because she should just stay in the kitchen and let Walt bring home the bacon' THEN you might have a basis for saying it's misogyny, but that's not an opinion I share, you see? Again, this comes down to "It can't be sexism unless it's overt." Sexism can be subtle and hard to detect, and our society is loving filled with it, the treatment of Skyler is just another symptom of how hosed up we are. E: This whole thing is getting too Feminism 101, so maybe I'll just stop now. PootieTang, I don't think you're a bad person or anything, I just think you're naive to how rampant subtle misogyny is in our culture. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Nov 13, 2013 |
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Nov 13, 2013 22:34
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PootieTang why do you hate women so much?
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