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ookiimarukochan posted:"Heal thyself" - it's a fairly famous proverb... Whoops so it was, early morning.
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Nov 14, 2013 18:44
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Astroman posted:It's an interesting way to do things, and I wonder if it didn't really stem as a workaround because Eccleston bailed. Moffat clearly wanted to do something around The Time War, and he probably approached Eccleston for a Three Doctors style episode where they'd team up and put 9's demons to rest. Probably wrote a cracking script and was really attached to it and approached Eccleston who said "thanks but no thanks." It's weird how the necessities of the real world sometimes cause a story to write itself. In retrospect it's almost head-slappingly obvious. Nine can't have fought in the war. For it to be Eight could stain that Doctor's character unnecessarily. Solution: a secret regeneration?! Totally elegant, and at the same time, storytelling dynamite.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:12
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qntm posted:It's weird how the necessities of the real world sometimes cause a story to write itself. In retrospect it's almost head-slappingly obvious. Nine can't have fought in the war. For it to be Eight could stain that Doctor's character unnecessarily. Solution: a secret regeneration?! Totally elegant, and at the same time, storytelling dynamite. We've known since like 15 minutes into the new series that Nine didn't fight in the war, he sees himself for the first time in the mirror in Rose's apartment.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:15
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And now.. An Adventure in Time and Space trailer: http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/an-adventure-in-space-and-time-first-trailer-51859.htm Today is a good day to be a Doctor who Fan.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:18
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qntm posted:It's weird how the necessities of the real world sometimes cause a story to write itself. In retrospect it's almost head-slappingly obvious. Nine can't have fought in the war. For it to be Eight could stain that Doctor's character unnecessarily. Solution: a secret regeneration?! Totally elegant, and at the same time, storytelling dynamite. Are you Steven Moffat's agent or something? It's not elegant at all to introduce something from out of the blue that contradicts stuff that has long been established.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:19
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marktheando posted:Are you Steven Moffat's agent or something? It's not elegant at all to introduce something from out of the blue that contradicts stuff that has long been established. You know like having two hearts or 12 regenerations.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:19
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Rhyno posted:We've known since like 15 minutes into the new series that Nine didn't fight in the war, he sees himself for the first time in the mirror in Rose's apartment. That's kind of what I meant. Although, it would be infinitely easier to write around that than Ecclestone's absence.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:20
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marktheando posted:Are you Steven Moffat's agent or something? It's not elegant at all to introduce something from out of the blue that contradicts stuff that has long been established. Yeah but look at all that fan service. What an amazing writer!
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Nov 14, 2013 19:20
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Having just seen McGann regenerate, I remain adamant that An Adventure in Space and Time is a total cover to get the first doctor in the 50th. 
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Nov 14, 2013 19:20
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Question that brings up for me is that that makes for 13 regenerations Like, moffat brought up that there was a twelth regeneration before this shown in the series. Metacrisis doctor may not have changed his face but he still spent a regenerations worth of energy. But he also said he's sticking to the twelve regenerations canon business. And why wouldn't war doctor be accessible from the doctor's timeline corpse?
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Nov 14, 2013 19:21
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marktheando posted:Are you Steven Moffat's agent or something? It's not elegant at all to introduce something from out of the blue that contradicts stuff that has long been established. Like what?
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Nov 14, 2013 19:22
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PriorMarcus posted:Yeah but look at all that fan service. What an amazing writer! Are you allergic to positivity, or what?
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Nov 14, 2013 19:25
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qntm posted:Like what? Like the numbering of the Doctors. bobkatt013 posted:You know like having two hearts or 12 regenerations.  He was never established as having a different number of hearts or regenerations though?
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Nov 14, 2013 19:25
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marktheando posted:Like the numbering of the Doctors. There have been 11 Doctors, and 1 who betrayed the name to fight in the Time War.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:26
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marktheando posted:Like the numbering of the Doctors. Yes he has. In Brain of Morbius it showed him having a shitload of regenerations before Hartnell. Also having two hearts is still a recon.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:27
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Yes, why hasn't the secret regeneration shown up in the numbering of the Doctors before?
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Nov 14, 2013 19:32
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That elixir he drank might have restarted his regeneration cycle and he doesn't even know it yet.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:36
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bobkatt013 posted:Yes he has. In Brain of Morbius it showed him having a shitload of regenerations before Hartnell. Also having two hearts is still a recon. Similarly, had the respiratory bypass system been mentioned before "Pyramids of Mars"? What about the Doctor being able to regrow limbs if he lost them soon enough after regeneration? I'm pretty sure writers have been making stuff about the Doctor as they go along since the programme started. I mean, just because something's not explicitly mentioned, it doesn't necessarily preclude its possibility, does it?
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Nov 14, 2013 19:37
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I like the green tinge to his regeneration, just like the Master. 
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Nov 14, 2013 19:37
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BrooklynBruiser posted:There have been 11 Doctors, and 1 who betrayed the name to fight in the Time War. Yes I know, and I don't like it. Metal Loaf posted:Similarly, had the respiratory bypass system been mentioned before "Pyramids of Mars"? What about the Doctor being able to regrow limbs if he lost them soon enough after regeneration? I'm pretty sure writers have been making stuff about the Doctor as they go along since the programme started. That's all true, but the numbering of the Doctors isn't something they haven't mentioned- there are lots of references to nine, ten and eleven being the ninth, tenth and eleventh Doctors. This 'he betrayed the name of the Doctor so he doesn't count' poo poo is just a clumsy retcon.
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Nov 14, 2013 19:57
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marktheando posted:That's all true, but the numbering of the Doctors isn't something they haven't mentioned- there are lots of references to nine, ten and eleven being the ninth, tenth and eleventh Doctors. This 'he betrayed the name of the Doctor so he doesn't count' poo poo is just a clumsy retcon. No, it's not. It's a big thematic point about the Doctor and about the character that has been clearly being built up to for a while. All the stuff in the past about Doctor becoming the word for warrior, and 11 trying to tone it down, is clearly leading up to this, an examination of who the Doctor is beyond his name. It's brilliant.
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Nov 14, 2013 20:02
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I guess I also don't see how the War Doctor somehow alters the numbering scheme. If you want to be really pedantic about it, there's plenty of buildings that call their 13th floor the 14th floor..
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Nov 14, 2013 20:07
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marktheando posted:That's all true, but the numbering of the Doctors isn't something they haven't mentioned- there are lots of references to nine, ten and eleven being the ninth, tenth and eleventh Doctors. This 'he betrayed the name of the Doctor so he doesn't count' poo poo is just a clumsy retcon. Say you name your son marktheando. You'd then be marktheando I, and your son marktheando II. Your son then names his son marktheando as well, making him marktheando III. However your grandson chooses not to name any of his children marktheando, but your great-grandson after learning about how awesome you were chooses to name his son (your great-great-grandson) marktheando. He would still (technically) be marktheando IV despite the generation gap where there was nobody new with the name marktheando. Make sense?
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Nov 14, 2013 20:10
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BrooklynBruiser posted:No, it's not. It's a big thematic point about the Doctor and about the character that has been clearly being built up to for a while. All the stuff in the past about Doctor becoming the word for warrior, and 11 trying to tone it down, is clearly leading up to this, an examination of who the Doctor is beyond his name. It's brilliant. Brilliant? Really? It just doesn't do anything for me, but then I've been sick of Moffat's story arcs for a good while now. RyuujinBlueZ posted:Say you name your son marktheando. You'd then be marktheando I, and your son marktheando II. Your son then names his son marktheando as well, making him marktheando III. However your grandson chooses not to name any of his children marktheando, but your great-grandson after learning about how awesome you were chooses to name his son (your great-great-grandson) marktheando. He would still (technically) be marktheando IV despite the generation gap where there was nobody new with the name marktheando. I would never do that to my son Seriously though I do understand, it's not complicated.
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Nov 14, 2013 20:15
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marktheando posted:I would never do that to my son Yeah, it really isn't, but you'd be surprised how many people I've seen who don't seem to get it. I'm not totally sure how I feel about it, but it's what we're getting so I'm content enough to let it play out. It does rather feel like a situation where they wrote themselves into a bit of a corner with how to deal with the Time War, and this is certainly a way to deal with that.
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Nov 14, 2013 20:19
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I'm also still not over the moon about the retconned in Doctor, but for whatever reason seeing McGann again has softened me somewhat to the idea.
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Nov 14, 2013 20:39
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Rita Repulsa posted:Question that brings up for me is that that makes for 13 regenerations The Metacrises explanation at the time was when a Time Lord regenerates, it first heals them, then changes them. It's a two part process, which Time Lords can't control (without help from Time Lord or Karn medical facilities). If you think about it, regeneration could just be healing, there's no reason it has to change their appearance. But Rassilon or whoever wrote it otherwise into their DNA. 10 states that he used the regeneration energy to heal himself, and forstalled the second part of the process by throwing it into The Hand. Now that would use up a regeneration, but perhaps by not going through with it he "tricked" his body into thinking it wasn't a regeneration. OR... Moffat, by adding a new Doctor in is making the story of the new regeneration cycle sooner then later, possibly wanting to address it during his tenure. It's quite possible that the Metacrises DID burn up a regeneration, in which case 11 is on the last body. This actually fits as the TARDIS Tomb looks like 11's and it's hinted that he is 11 when he dies there--there are no further Doctor's in his grave/headspace. So it could be that Moffat is tackling the regeneration issue in the Christmas special itself, and Capaldi isn't the Last Doctor of his first cycle, but a First Doctor of another 12 (or infinite) regenerations. Personally I think that storyline deserves at least a season, but it is appropriate to do in the 50th year--give the character a new lease on life, get rid of all the baggage of the The Time War, getting older, closer to death, etc. Capaldi's Doctor could be the most non-brooding, happy go lucky one we've seen in years.
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Nov 14, 2013 20:46
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Oh yeah, I miscalculated. Eleven known doctors means TEN regenerations. Plus one for metacrisis plus another for hurt is twelve, not thirteen. 
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Nov 14, 2013 20:58
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RyuujinBlueZ posted:It does rather feel like a situation where they wrote themselves into a bit of a corner with how to deal with the Time War, and this is certainly a way to deal with that. It was dealt with. Moffat could of told a new story, he didn't have to go back to this well again when it's barely been featured in Smith's run as the Doctor. I just don't give a poo poo about seeing the Time War, or about a surprise regeneration that hasn't been hinted at before. This episode was nice, but Moffats reason for not having Eight fight in the war, that Eight was optimistic and saw the best in people, seems to ignore the fact that character development is actually a good thing. It was awesome seeing McGann again, it's just a shame he turns out to have went out like a chump in a low-budget cave for 'reasons'. Maybe Moffat will undo the Time War and bring back the Time Lords, then nothing from RTD's era would be of import.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:04
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How is dying in a goddamn spaceship crash going out like a chump
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Nov 14, 2013 21:06
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Rita Repulsa posted:How is dying in a goddamn spaceship crash going out like a chump Yes it's certainly a lot better than bumping his head on the console or Tennant's whine fest. I'd put it somewhere in the middle of the regenerations.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:08
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Rita Repulsa posted:How is dying in a goddamn spaceship crash going out like a chump The concept is awesome, however the quick switch from never wanting to take part in the war to deciding to regenerate into a soldier was so abrupt it just made him look silly. Also, it's a shame we couldn't have the regeneration actually happen on screen because of the young Hurt CGI, but that's more a niggle rather than a genuine complaint. Did I enjoy it? Yes, I'll always enjoy Doctor Who, but there's no harm in criticizing things.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:09
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He had four minutes to make up his mind, the situation he was in showed him that he probably would not be able to travel the universe and ignore the time war while everyone was dying from it, and he had that death on his conscience. Plus it's eatablished that a time lords brain itself is changed by the regeneration, so it makes sense that he wanted to take on a mind specialized for war first imo no harm in criticizing but I can respond to your criticism, right?
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Nov 14, 2013 21:13
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Rita Repulsa posted:He had four minutes to make up his mind, the situation he was in showed him that he probably would not be able to travel the universe and ignore the time war while everyone was dying from it, and he had that death on his conscience. Plus it's eatablished that a time lords brain itself is changed by the regeneration, so it makes sense that he wanted to take on a mind specialized for war first imo Yeah, I love having debates about this stuff and going back and forth on it its just everyone is on a high and I don't want to cause an argument by not enjoying it quite as much as everyone else. I do like the idea of tailoring regenerations for specific task, and of Eight running from the Time War until death itself forced him to take part, I just don't like that a previously hidden regeneration is involved, mainly because it feels like it came from nowhere.
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Nov 14, 2013 21:23
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Bearing in mind I have never seen the TV movie or anything to do with McGann, I thought his decision made sense. He had just seen someone who would rather die than let him help her simply because he was a Time Lord and therefore part of the Time War - and when you go around calling yourself The Doctor that must rankle a bit. So he did what he had to do, he took the regeneration so he could set the universe to rights (in his mind).
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Nov 14, 2013 21:30
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EvilHawk posted:Bearing in mind I have never seen the TV movie or anything to do with McGann, I thought his decision made sense. He had just seen someone who would rather die than let him help her simply because he was a Time Lord and therefore part of the Time War - and when you go around calling yourself The Doctor that must rankle a bit. So he did what he had to do, he took the regeneration so he could set the universe to rights (in his mind). I also get the vibe that this wasn't the first time a potential companion had turned him down over the Time War. A few could be brushed off but he was at a point where he was willing to risk his life to try and convince one to join him, even just long enough to get them off their crashing space ship.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:24
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One thing I noticed in the short was the comment that Time Lord science is more amplified and controllable on Karn and the regeneration could be controlled to literally make the Doctor (or any Time Lord, I assume) into almost anything. I could have sworn they said the options were Young or old, strong or fast, man or woman. Given all the controversy and commentary regarding race/gender in regeneration, the man or woman part makes me wonder if they're trying to quietly address that. Karn or Gallifrey controlled medical sciences is like a hack or expansion pack that lets you do things outside limitations of your normal parameters. Otherwise, under a TYPICAL random regeneration you operate on restricted set of features. Also, I find it sort of interesting after the short ended that the Doctor regenerates to become a warrior to fight in the Time Wars, while the Master, brought back because he was the perfect warrior to fight in the Time War, becomes a doctor with his next regeneration when he escapes it.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:31
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Rita Repulsa posted:Oh yeah, I miscalculated. Eleven known doctors means TEN regenerations. Plus one for metacrisis plus another for hurt is twelve, not thirteen. Yeah, but the fact of the matter is Capaldi is definitely the last life, and if Metacrisis counts he's the start of a new cycle. PriorMarcus posted:The concept is awesome, however the quick switch from never wanting to take part in the war to deciding to regenerate into a soldier was so abrupt it just made him look silly. The vibe I got was that this was an 8 who had been on the periphery of The Time War for a long time, arguing with the Time Lords about joining them, reasoning with himself about not participating, and helping out where he could. The death of this one person, while seemingly insignificant, was the straw that broke the camel's back. Plus the Sisterhood wasn't giving him much choice...agree to fight or you die here in this body because you're already dead.
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Nov 14, 2013 22:52
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What does the doctor say around 5:50? "friends companions... *mumble*.." ?
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Nov 14, 2013 23:11
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JediTalentAgent posted:Also, I find it sort of interesting after the short ended that the Doctor regenerates to become a warrior to fight in the Time Wars, while the Master, brought back because he was the perfect warrior to fight in the Time War, becomes a doctor with his next regeneration when he escapes it. I like that.
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Nov 14, 2013 23:13
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