|
Background checks don't include your past income. Also I made one of my references mad when I was full-court-pressing for a job and he just stopped responding to requests to verify.
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 10:50 |
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:Background checks don't include your past income. Background checks can include your past income. I assume they just want to make sure that you weren't a mailroom clerk advertising yourself as "Director of Internal Communications." 2banks1swap.avi posted:Also I made one of my references mad when I was full-court-pressing for a job and he just stopped responding to requests to verify. Don't give up your references so easily. Your references are yours, and their time is precious to you. It's not precious at all to HR dipshits. They'll call just because they have the number. Don't give references until you absolutely, positively have to. No matter how often they ask. It is OK to demur.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:28
|
|
|
Regardless of background checks, advocating lying about your salary seems really lovely to me. There are other ways to get paid properly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:31
|
|
|
Instead of naming your old salary say something like: "Only an offer of at least XYZ would make the job change viable."
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:38
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:Background checks can include your past income. I assume they just want to make sure that you weren't a mailroom clerk advertising yourself as "Director of Internal Communications." Is this specific to government stuff? I don't think credentialed private background check firms can access this information legally.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:40
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:It's better to not say at all, but honestly, this is one case where you're a moron for not bending the truth a little. 2banks1swap.avi posted:Lying your rear end off about what you make now and asking for 50% more than you're presently making and the other party not batting an eyelash is definitely the kind of thing you should be doing, not selling yourself short If you are making $95,000 and you say you make about $100,000 you're essentially taking the gamble (rightfully so IMO) that even if they find out that you make $95,000 they won't care about what amounts to not a lie (since you said about $100K, and 5% off can be accounted for because of general error and people like to round stuff up). But if you say that when you are only making $70,000 then that should be a definite no hire. Because if you'd lie about that, what else are you willing to lie about? Telling people to lie their rear end off about what they make (assuming they even make since most people here are completely new grads) is bad advice. PS if you're lying about your current salary and ask for $X more and the person you're talking to does not "bat an eyelash" that's not really a good sign (hint you're being severely underpaid, which means what you're asking for is just bringing you up to par) 2banks1swap.avi posted:IIRC Companies DO NOT divulge pay information unless you're the IRS. They say "he worked from x to y and is/not eligible for rehire" and ONLY THAT, for a lot of reasons. They usually don't but there is no restriction about what a company can reveal about your employment at the company. And there aren't many reasons they don't other than a stupid fear about being sued for saying something that is untrue.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:44
|
|
|
Otto Skorzeny posted:Is this specific to government stuff? I don't think credentialed private background check firms can access this information legally. I do know that most HR departments will happily confirm your employment status, your dates of employment, and your salary. These are factual data about you that can't be used by even the most litigious ex-employee. I don't know how background check firms are regulated, but I can't imagine that they're not allowed to ask routine questions of your prior employers.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:46
|
|
|
bonds0097 posted:Regardless of background checks, advocating lying about your salary seems really lovely to me. There are other ways to get paid properly. Morality has no place in business, especially for employees in the year 2013
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 17:54
|
|
|
a lovely poster posted:Morality has no place in business, especially for employees in the year 2013 Even assuming we're all amoral pieces of garbage, it's still a lie that can get you fired. In this particular instance, it's really easy to talk about your tcomp number and not say a word about salary until after the anchor's been set.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 18:03
|
|
|
Do disciplinary actions show up in background/reference checks at all usually? I got a couple write-ups for being chronically late for awhile.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 18:47
|
|
|
HondaCivet posted:Do disciplinary actions show up in background/reference checks at all usually? I got a couple write-ups for being chronically late for awhile. Were you arrested? Then probably not. If they call your employer they will probably tell them though if they didn't like you. Also work for a company that doesn't care if you show up late.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 18:53
|
|
|
What right does an employer have to know what you've made at other companies? How can they actually find out except asking? That kind of collusion while also discouraging employees to tell each other what they make is extremely problematic. Can they look up your annual income or can they find out on a per-job basis what the salaries were? Everything I've ever been told is they only give out the dates you started, stopped, and eligibility for rehire. It's certainly lovely negotiation to be too honest about this at any rate. I'm not advocating to misrepresent your actual skills, but being a coward during salary negotiations is foolish. Entities mislead each other all the time. Give me a loving break. Also, Strong Sauce, I am in fact terribly underpaid right now. I was an idiot who made up a number without doing any market research or having any confidence. That's since been fixed. It's also nobody's business if I have or haven't been underpaid, and shouldn't follow me around unless I keep a pay stub in my pocket to remind myself to not be a wimp.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 18:54
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:Even assuming we're all amoral pieces of garbage, it's still a lie that can get you fired. In this particular instance, it's really easy to talk about your tcomp number and not say a word about salary until after the anchor's been set. A place that went and tried to get you tattled on about past salary is not the kind of place you need to work for at any rate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 18:55
|
|
|
JawnV6 posted:Even assuming we're all amoral pieces of garbage, it's still a lie that can get you fired. In this particular instance, it's really easy to talk about your tcomp number and not say a word about salary until after the anchor's been set. Have you ever met someone who didn't get a job because they lied about their past salary? Ever? I'm sorry, there's absolutely nothing wrong with bumping up the figure from your previous job 5-10k to get a raise if you feel like you can manage it. Beyond that, there are a ton of intangible benefits at work that you can just say you were factoring into the number if they ever "call you out" on it which has never happened to anyone ever. It's a negotiation, if you think your employer is going to be "honest" with you, you're fooling yourself. Honestly has no place in this part of the business. Maybe I've just seen the opposite end too much and I'm just cynical. a lovely poster fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Nov 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 18:58
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure on the same page I'm just better at dressing the lie.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:09
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:What right does an employer have to know what you've made at other companies? I don't believe anyone is seriously arguing this. Companies absolutely don't NEED your previous salary history. They might want it, but there's no legal requirement/taxes/bullshit that they can use to compel you to divulge it. Instead, the general idea being put forward is that it's advisable to not lie about poo poo during interviews because there's almost always another approach that will give you what you want without creating landmines you might trip over later.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:09
|
|
|
Strong Sauce posted:Were you arrested? Then probably not. If they call your employer they will probably tell them though if they didn't like you. Believe me, I'm trying to get the hell out of here. I ended up doing some FMLA poo poo to cover that problem somewhat so I'm hoping they legally can't mention it at all now.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:12
|
|
|
Hasn't it already been established it's just bad negotiating to tell a company you're applying to what you're currently getting paid anyway? Why are you even arguing about this? Stop giving out numbers, lies or not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:13
|
|
|
Well in my case the lie was "I was paid what I was worth because I wasn't a gigantic wimp." It's still a lie. I also still don't care. Businesses have lied to me and continue to lie to me. I'm not a chump.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:13
|
|
|
Why the gently caress would a company ever risk eating a lawsuit by saying "yes, X worked here, but we wrote him up once for arguing with his supervisor"? That's absolutely insane to consider. I've never heard of anybody's previous companies being contacted for anything other than to confirm position title and dates of employment, and if you hand out a reference that you're not 100% sure will give you a glowing recommendation, you're an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:21
|
|
|
Can we get resume critiques here? I formatted my resume to HTML/CSS so I could access it online from anywhere. I'm mostly worried about my education and work experience being partly biology based, even though it involved a good amount of programming and statistical analysis. Is this an appropriate resume for a college graduate looking to get into development, or am I gonna get passed over because I don't have a CS degree? edit: Added a PDF icon and download link. Fixed in the upper right corner, doesn't appear on the PDF version. Don't worry, I looked up the permissions for it. Pollyanna fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Nov 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:31
|
|
|
pr0zac posted:Hasn't it already been established it's just bad negotiating to tell a company you're applying to what you're currently getting paid anyway? Why are you even arguing about this? Stop giving out numbers, lies or not. Nope. Not 100% of the time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:31
|
|
|
Are write-ups really a thing? I haven't heard of them since I worked fast food in my teens.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:41
|
|
|
baquerd posted:Are write-ups really a thing? I haven't heard of them since I worked fast food in my teens. I don't think I've heard of something officially called a "write-up" in 10 years, but any (moderately organized) company is going to keep pretty meticulous records on you, including any policy violations or disciplinary action taken. Whether or not a company would share that information with somebody calling in for a background check type situation, I do not know. I would assume not.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:49
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Can we get resume critiques here? I formatted my resume to HTML/CSS so I could access it online from anywhere (working on how to add a PDF download link). I'm mostly worried about my education and work experience being partly biology based, even though it involved a good amount of programming and statistical analysis. Is this an appropriate resume for a college graduate looking to get into development, or am I gonna get passed over because I don't have a CS degree? Many places won't care about your degree, to the extent that I would personally move that section to below work experience. The problem with your resume is that I don't actually see any indication that you can program at all. Maybe for a biologist this is obvious but most of what is described in your resume is entirely foreign to me. At best I would infer that you have written some MATLAB scripts. The only programming language you list is Python, which you, according to your resume, have never actually used. Finding a developer job outside the biology world seems quite unlikely with that resume. What actual development have you done, and can you explain it to a non-biologist?
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 19:53
|
|
|
Skuto posted:Many places won't care about your degree, to the extent that I would personally move that section to below work experience. The problem with your resume is that I don't actually see any indication that you can program at all. Maybe for a biologist this is obvious but most of what is described in your resume is entirely foreign to me. At best I would infer that you have written some MATLAB scripts. Er...yeah, that's where I hit a wall. Thing is, I haven't had a software job yet, and not a whole lot of my education involved any sort of development. I can use Python, MATLAB, HTML, CSS, ad nauseum, but I still don't really have anything to my name that I can slap onto my resume and say "check this poo poo out".  That's my biggest problem with this resume in general: it looks nice, and I have a bunch of stuff on it, but I don't think it's enough. I can go through as many tutorials as I can stand, but I still need something to show for it.There are a few ways to "get myself out there", as it were. I can put up projects I've been working on to the web, I have a Github and everything, but there's still nothing particularly impressive on it. I've also been looking into contributing to open source projects, but I don't think you can cite that on your resume, can you? What else could I do to, well, do something? As for your questions, most of my programming for the osteoporosis model and the cell segmentation program was scripting in MATLAB. MATLAB isn't like Java or C++, it's highly specialized and I used it a lot for engineering-related purposes. I have attempted to get some sort of analyst position in the BME field, but I haven't been successful for various reasons. I'm rather surprised at what you said about moving the education section down. I was under the impression that recruiters and hiring managers would toss a resume if they don't see at least a BS on it. Isn't it important to let them know that I did in fact go to college? (that said, college != has skills...and I have my own beef with higher education anyway) Anyway, I'm aware that I don't have much CS experience on there. I'm actually mostly trained in biology and materials science, but at the BS level - which is to say, I'm not particularly valuable at all. (About Python, the website was built in Flask. An obnoxiously rudimentary Flask app, mind you, but it's still Flask.  )
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 20:07
|
|
|
EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:Why the gently caress would a company ever risk eating a lawsuit by saying "yes, X worked here, but we wrote him up once for arguing with his supervisor"? But how would you ever know? People may never say anything on an official level, but people are friends with people at other companies and they'll gossip. 2banks1swap.avi posted:Well in my case the lie was "I was paid what I was worth because I wasn't a gigantic wimp." It sucks that you got lowballed at your first job dude but it seems like you have some trust problems so maybe don't recommend people do what you did. Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Nov 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 20:07
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Er...yeah, that's where I hit a wall. Thing is, I haven't had a software job yet, and not a whole lot of my education involved any sort of development. I can use Python, MATLAB, HTML, CSS, ad nauseum, but I still don't really have anything to my name that I can slap onto my resume and say "check this poo poo out". It's hard to say because biocompanies may be looking for different things than engineering companies in terms of what a resume should look like so you may be better off asking other people with experience in that field. I would say from a engineering company perspective, Remove objective (do this regardless) and move the Education further down after Work Experience/Academic Projects. Given the stuff in your Work Experience seems like you didn't do much programming, I may put your Academic Projects above that. If you're looking for non biomedical jobs as well, you should probably have two resumes that you send out based on the company you're applying for. Also you can cite contributions to open source projects, but probably only put down ones you've actually submitted code (and not say typo PRs or one-line changes) In terms of content you are fine given you're still a relatively recent graduate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 20:29
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:There are a few ways to "get myself out there", as it were. I can put up projects I've been working on to the web, I have a Github and everything, but there's still nothing particularly impressive on it. I've also been looking into contributing to open source projects, but I don't think you can cite that on your resume, can you? What else could I do to, well, do something? 1. Of course you can cite open source projects on your resume. Heck, I even put it in the OP, under "Outside Experience". 2. Anything? The sky's the limit! Obviously it can depend on what kind of work you're aiming for, or what kinds of things you're interested in. Mobile apps and web apps are two places where it's relatively easy to make something small but still nifty. Really the most important thing about personal projects is that it shows you can take initiative, and that you can make something with at least halfway-decent code style/design. edit: Also I agree with Strong Sauce that if you want something relevant to your chosen field of Bioinformatics, you'd be better off asking people who work in that field what would be impressive or confidence-boosting to them. Cicero fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Nov 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 20:38
|
|
|
Strong Sauce posted:It sucks that you got lowballed at your first job dude but it seems like you have some trust problems so maybe don't recommend people do what you did. It's honestly not a general rule to say "5-15% above median for this position in this region"? It's really better to be a prick about answering and be willing to walk away if they insist? Also yes I have trust issues, why the gently caress would I trust a place unless they've demonstrated I have a reason to do so? If I haven't worked for them, they're still an adversary.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 21:19
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:It's honestly not a general rule to say "5-15% above median for this position in this region"? It's really better to be a prick about answering and be willing to walk away if they insist? "My target salary is (5-15% above median for this position in this region)" is an answer to the question "What salary range are you looking for?" "I made (15% more than I actually made) in my previous position" is an answer to the question "What was your salary at your previous job?" Those are two totally different questions. You should do your best to not answer the 2nd question. As I said, companies absolutely don't need that info for any legit reason ever, and it's totally ok to just say you don't discuss your previous compensation agreements. Like it literally has no bearing on the discussion at hand. You should approach negotiations from the viewpoint that your value is determined by market rates and your skills. Even if you somehow get compelled to divulge your salary history, it doesn't stop you from telling them what you're shooting for now or negotiating up to it. 2banks1swap.avi posted:Also yes I have trust issues, why the gently caress would I trust a place unless they've demonstrated I have a reason to do so? If I haven't worked for them, they're still an adversary. Yeah, there's a difference between being cognizant of the fact that you need to look out for your own best interest and treating potential employers like they're your adversary. Not making that distinction will totally come across during the interview process and it's not going to do you any favors. edit: VVVV I prefer, "Trust, but verify" and "Get everything in writing, dated and signed." jkyuusai fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Nov 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 21:44
|
|
|
Adversarial negotiation does not mean enemy. Maybe that's too strong of a word. It's probably better to say "don't be a chump."
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 21:51
|
|
|
2banks1swap.avi posted:Adversarial negotiation does not mean enemy. Maybe that's too strong of a word. I get where you're coming from, and I agree that it's not particularly damaging and you can very easily get away with it. But you're still being a chump. Even in the case that you lie about your previous salary; you're still giving the first number. That will give the advantage to them outright, regardless of whether that first number is honest or not. To put it more clearly; there is never a scenario in which it is to your favor to give the first number. For example, if they agree outright to your salary demands, you've lost the chance to negotiate for more; if they typically paid new grads 70k and you said, "I will not work for any less than 65k", you've chumped yourself out of a bare minimum of 5k, and likely more. If they are completely unable to comply with your salary, then they likely won't even give you an offer - you'll be considered too expensive and be removed from consideration - which you also don't want. You can use even a mediocre offer as a bargaining chip in an offer negotiation with another company - provided you talk up their benefits and super rad work culture. Never give a first number. Be unyielding, but not an rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:04
|
|
|
Well when you put it that way next time I won't. How often would you have to walk away or endure a really boring "awkward silence" before you go "ok bye."?
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:14
|
|
|
Sarcophallus posted:Never give a first number. Be unyielding, but not an rear end in a top hat. This is bad advice. It doesn't matter who gives the first number. Either way can work to your favor. Either way can burn you if you gently caress it up. If you give the first number:
If you don't give the first number:
In either case, delay as much as possible. Never talk numbers until after the interviews, ever. Keep some stock phrases in mind for when HR people gently caress with you: "It's a little too early for that discussion." "I'm sure we can reach an agreement on compensation if everything else looks good." "I will accept the most competitive offer." It's HR's job to get you to compromise your negotiating position as early as possible, preferably before a hiring manager gets his heart set on you. They play this game every day. Do not be afraid to be respond to pushiness with longwinded denial. 2banks1swap.avi posted:How often would you have to walk away or endure a really boring "awkward silence" before you go "ok bye."? Until they ask me to leave. Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Nov 15, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:31
|
|
|
tk posted:I don't think I've heard of something officially called a "write-up" in 10 years, but any (moderately organized) company is going to keep pretty meticulous records on you, including any policy violations or disciplinary action taken. The more technically correct term would be disciplinary action I suppose. I had to meet with my boss and be scolded and sign something saying that I got told and that I knew the policies and poo poo. I work for a very corporate bureaucratic place. It sucks and makes me depressed and I'm trying to get a new job.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:35
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:price anchoring Both sides already have a price anchor for salary before negotiations begin, unless one side is ignorant or incompetent. Agree whole heartedly on waiting until you have a conditional offer before discussing salary at all though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:36
|
|
|
Otto Skorzeny posted:Both sides already have a price anchor for salary before negotiations begin, unless one side is ignorant or incompetent. In a labor market, both sides are ignorant and incompetent. They're not buying a fixed good at a known quantity, they're hiring an employee. Of course they have a price in mind before the interview. They have a price in mind for an abstract employee filling an abstract role with abstract skills. You're a specific person offering specific things that will revolutionize their business and rock their fuckin world. In a professional context, if the interview doesn't loosen their price anchor enough for you to establish your own, you either suck at interviewing or you're shooting for the wrong jobs.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:38
|
|
|
What are some good open source projects that relative beginners could get involved in? I'd love to learn by contributing minor work to an open source project but finding projects I can contribute too seems difficult.
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 10:50 |
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:Until they ask me to leave. Has this happened?
|
|
#
?
Nov 15, 2013 22:57
|
|