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Honestly I want to know the logistics behind how what Shinji did in 2.0 resulted in the 3.0 world, but eva and logistics don't exactly get along.
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Nov 14, 2013 03:27
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Me too because his Third Impact got canceled pretty fuckin quick ..Any theories? mellowjournalism fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 03:44
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yellowjournalism posted:Me too because his Third Impact got canceled pretty fuckin quick If the brief scenes shown in the 'coming next time' in 2.2 actually happened then it looks like things between Nerve and Seele heated up quite a bit. The scene from the basement of Nerv headquarters with Unit 6 and Lilith merged and stuck with two Lances of Longinus seem like it would have to play a role somehow, though whether it was always intended as a long term trap for Shinji or turned into one later is kinda unclear. My thoughts have been that something about Shinji's aborted Third Impact acted as a catalyst for a more full one, though I have no idea what that could be as it doesn't seem likely to be either Shinji himself or Unit 1 since they end up being shot into space.
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Nov 14, 2013 08:12
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I have just assumed that after being lanced, 01 was activated again, stopped somehow, and then sent into orbit to prevent it from happening again.
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Nov 14, 2013 08:58
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notZaar posted:Eva 3.0 is what happens when you let your art and animation directors go hog wild and ignore basic storytelling and script writing. You can argue about vague references and hidden meaning until you're blue in the face, bit the movie just does not work on its own merits. Unless the goal of the movie is to make people mad the first time they see it. Then it works perfectly. When I watched it we started MST3King it 10 minutes in and never let up. There just wasn't much keeping us interested otherwise.
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Nov 14, 2013 09:56
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Okay, let's hope I got this right... 1. Kaworu spears the gently caress out of Unit-01, which due to various Shinji-related shenanigans is about to become a god and trigger Third Impact. This STOPS Unit-01 and Shinji completely. 2. Kaworu hovers down to Lilith and tries to merge with it, like most other angels tried to do before. Or rather, his Unit-06 tries to merge - somehow, it's an angel itself, too...? 3. Lilith awakens, similar to when Rei merged with Lilith in End of Evangelion, and starts to transform into a giant naked Rei to re-enact the Impact from End of Evangelion. 4. The process is halted with ANOTHER Lance of Longinus, somehow. Who knows where that lance comes from (might be Kaworu's own, if he didn't have to leave it with Unit-01 to keep it frozen), or who wielded it! Kaworu somehow escapes, and whoever's responsible for stopping Unit-06 also chops the head off Lilith just for good measure. 5. Gendo stores the giant Rei head in his freezer because that's just how he rolls. 6. Shinji and Unit-01 are shot into space... for safety reasons, I guess. Presumably, they no longer need a Lance of Longinus to keep Unit-01 from freaking out. Could mean the Lance of Longinus in Lilith's corpse is actually Kaworu's own and, whoever stopped him, actually managed to take it from him. 7. The big fallout between Misato, Seele and NERV. Lots of politics. 8. Gendo gets another weird Lance, the Lance of Kassius, and stabs it into Lilith's corpse as well. Presumably, if the Lance of Longinus is a stopping mechanism and removing it triggers an angel-influenced Impact, the Lance of Kassius changes it to the kind of Impact Gendo desires. The idea is that Kaworu, once he has the means to pull the spear(s) (in this case, Shinji and Unit-01), inadvertently triggers Gendo's Impact. 9. Somehow, Seele / Gendo figure out how to manufacture angels. Huge-rear end battles ensue. Misato and co create their awesome space whale ship to fight the new threat, and to power it, they retrieve Shinji and Unit-01 from space. 10. ...aaaaaaaaand the movie happens. Whelp - that's my attempt at bridging the gap between 2.0 and 3.0. I hope it makes sense? I'm not sure what exactly the Lance of Kassius was supposed to do, or how many different versions of Impacts there are. It seems there are at least four: the one triggered by an angel merging with Lilith, the one triggered by an EVA unit in a huge ritual (what Seele wants), the one somehow hijacked by Gendo and presumably influenced by the Lance of Kassius (what Gendo wants) and the one triggered by an EVA unit breaking free of all its restraints... which might be the same as the second one and, in the series, the original Impact in Antarctica? Evangelion is confusing as hell, but the sci-fi behind it can be pretty fun to figure out!
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Nov 14, 2013 10:05
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Pureauthor posted:Honestly I want to know the logistics behind how what Shinji did in 2.0 resulted in the 3.0 world, but eva and logistics don't exactly get along.
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Nov 14, 2013 10:12
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That movement from logistics and naturalism to out and out surrealism is a big part of what makes Eva Eva.
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Nov 14, 2013 11:17
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Torquemadras posted:9. Somehow, Seele / Gendo figure out how to manufacture angels. Huge-rear end battles ensue. Misato and co create their awesome space whale ship to fight the new threat, and to power it, they retrieve Shinji and Unit-01 from space. That one's pretty easy to explain, considering that Evas are basically already angel clones with cybernetic parts. It's probably more accurate to say that they simply got better at manufacturing angels.
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Nov 14, 2013 13:35
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Slime posted:That one's pretty easy to explain, considering that Evas are basically already angel clones with cybernetic parts. It's probably more accurate to say that they simply got better at manufacturing angels. I looks like the the thing NERV managed to do was create things that could generate AT fields without needing a human pilot/soul. Eva's may be made out of angel bits but they can't generate AT fields without human pilots/souls/dummy plugs.
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Nov 14, 2013 15:09
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Torquemadras posted:
That's the control center 
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Nov 14, 2013 15:53
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Whoops new page.
FedEx Mercury fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Nov 14, 2013 |
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Nov 14, 2013 18:23
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I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:I looks like the the thing NERV managed to do was create things that could generate AT fields without needing a human pilot/soul. Eva's may be made out of angel bits but they can't generate AT fields without human pilots/souls/dummy plugs. Given how they treat Rei Q, they're probably dummy plugged with Ayanamis. e: since this seemed to get missed last page and is pretty much the thrust of complaining about 3.0: MadRhetoric posted:The problem with 3.0 is that it doesn't give people what they want or expect, given what 2.0 set up. As a treatise on depression and alienation, it works. As a complete 180 to what Eva's been while still being kinda Eva-y, it works. As an extension of episodes 22-24 (with heavier focus on Kaworu) it works. As the sequel to 2.0 and everything it (seemed to) stand for, it's off the loving reservation. MadRhetoric fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 01:04
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I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:I looks like the the thing NERV managed to do was create things that could generate AT fields without needing a human pilot/soul. Eva's may be made out of angel bits but they can't generate AT fields without human pilots/souls/dummy plugs. Therefore Nerv/Gehirn deliberately interfered with the growth process, generating misshapen abortions (hundreds of them!). Eventually they created a few which, while crippled and lobotimized, were alive and were capable of further development. The subsequent work - battery cells, armor bindings, Contact Experiments, Signal Termination Plugs, Entry Plugs, synchronization tests, Dummy Plugs - constituted a prolonged attempt to restore the original power and autonomy of the EVA units, but with crucial restraints in place (the most important one being "don't do anything unless one of the human souls inside you says that it's a good idea"). The Nemesis units seem to have fully autonomy but they also seem to operate under very limited rules-of-engagement. My guess is that the Nemesis units are controlled remotely (as seen when Shinji directed the defense drones on Eva 13) by Nerv personnel. There's a thematic parallel with Rei here - she's an autonomous human being who's capable of making her own decisions, yet she usually does nothing until she's given orders by someone in authority.
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Nov 15, 2013 02:23
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MadRhetoric posted:As a treatise on depression and alienation, it works. As a complete 180 to what Eva's been while still being kinda Eva-y, it works. As an extension of episodes 22-24 (with heavier focus on Kaworu) it works. As the sequel to 2.0 and everything it (seemed to) stand for, it's off the loving reservation. You know, I think this is the best way to put it. I'm not willing to get too deep into the arguments, but I still maintain that the 3rd film was just a lazy setup for the 4th movie. Answers very little, puts on a little spectacle to entertain you, and creates more ridiculous questions in the process.
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Nov 15, 2013 03:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The new Rei is Rei. If you want to get tediously literal she's another clone, like every previous Rei, but here I am going to indulge in the whole symbolic meaning thing: Rei's role in 3.33 is to show how Shinji would rather recklessly try to turn back time than recognize that the world is still there and he has to live in it. Rei is confusing and alien and doesn't remember him, but rather than taking this in stride he makes only a trivial effort to rebuild their relationship and then gives up. "She liked books," he thinks, and makes a little book-shrine, and when she doesn't immediately fall into his arms he starts to resent her. It's a betrayal of what he ostensibly felt at the end of 2.0 and personally I find it a more compelling reason to dislike Shinji than anything else he's done. Few posts back, but I'd just like to say I found this bit a really interesting read. Makes Rei Q a much more interesting character in her own right as well as giving her more relevance to Shinji's arc rather than just being another symbol of his failure for him to agonize over. So, yeah, appreciated this. Spiritus Nox fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Nov 15, 2013 |
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Nov 15, 2013 06:10
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I made some gifs. This was my first attempt at making gifs that look 'good'. It took me a while to make them (premiere can't decode .mkv) and the quality is inconsistent, but hey, here they are. I had more to say about Rebuild 3 and the gifs but for now all I need to really say is that three of these were made from splicing together clips that didn't necessarily follow each other in direct sequence, but that I thought looked good together. Bridge crew syncing with the Wille. Doesn't look like they had any errors on the BIOS screen. That's good, they must have their devices configured properly.:  Penetrate & impregnate. 'Start Me Up' indeed:  *pressing buttons*  There's some really good visual characterization going on throughout 3.0. Parts of this sequence remind me of abstract expressionist and cubist paintings:  *staring at phone*  Eye-burning electric neon robot suicide:  edit: I know it's not a phone. SMERSH Mouth fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 06:05
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Its pretty crazy how the CG quality fluctuates in these movies. Like you get poo poo like ^that^ and this but then you also get the zombie crowds of New Neo Tokyo
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Nov 18, 2013 06:16
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You know, I've warmed up a lot towards the third movie concerning the plot, its themes, its characters and whatnot. But still... I feel like 30% of the movie is giving me eye cancer. So much red
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Nov 18, 2013 09:33
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Dred Cosmonaut posted:Its pretty crazy how the CG quality fluctuates in these movies. Like you get poo poo like ^that^ and this but then you also get the zombie crowds of New Neo Tokyo Yeah, that bit when Unit 2 is swimming past the port hole en route to start the engine was rocking early 2000s CG.
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Nov 18, 2013 15:38
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It's indeed jarring how the 'traditional style' animation looks so much better than some of the 3DCG sequences. There are several scenes similar to my first gif where the camera pans out along side the Wunder's bridge and the characters look like models from some cel-shaded PS2 game. Such scenes suggest to me that it's like, "here's a sequence that would look really cool if it was animated in a traditional style but we went with CG instead to save time." For example:  Although the 'rotating background simulating dizziness/insanity' effect generally looks bad even if it isn't done with CG.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:41
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Torquemadras posted:Okay, let's hope I got this right... But if that was the case, it would not make sense that anyone would blame Shinji for being responsible for Third Impact (especially since the world seemed absolutely OK when Kaworu stopped Shinji's Third Impact, blue earth and non-flying Geofront and everything). It wouldn't be like Mark-06 was a secret; everyone loving saw Kaworu when he descended! Everyone saw that Unit-01 was completely disabled before things went totally batshit! 
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Nov 19, 2013 14:06
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MechaX posted:But if that was the case, it would not make sense that anyone would blame Shinji for being responsible for Third Impact (especially since the world seemed absolutely OK when Kaworu stopped Shinji's Third Impact, blue earth and non-flying Geofront and everything). It wouldn't be like Mark-06 was a secret; everyone loving saw Kaworu when he descended! Everyone saw that Unit-01 was completely disabled before things went totally batshit! I JUST DON'T KNOW Really, I have no clue. We know Kaworu's Unit-06 made it down to Lilith and merged with it, and his Lance of Longinus presumably as well. What happened to Shinji and Unit-01? As you say, everything seemed peachy when Unit-01 got speared... We either can't see the consequences of Unit-01's ascendance (which would be misleading as gently caress), or there is something Shinji doesn't remember, or Unit-01 did something by itself which people assumed Shinji did, or Kaworu puppeted Unit-01 or... something. Of course, there is also the - rather disappointing - possibility that Shinji's role really did end there, and everybody just blames him for ALMOST causing Third Impact. We don't see any consequences from that almost-impact, though... Makes everybody seem like even more of an unreasonable rear end in a top hat. I'm just as confused as you are. Don't have any other explanation, though.
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Nov 19, 2013 15:56
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I agree that it's probably the only thing that makes sense compared to what we've been seen and told, but it just seems like Anno didn't really think this all the way through. Although, if the apocalyptic version of Third Impact was more Kaworu's doing, doesn't that mean that Kaworu was straight up lying to Shinji by saying that he directly caused the current state of the world? And that begs the question of why Kaworu would lie to Shinji when his sole motivation in both versions of the series was to make him happy, but he could have just made Shinji happy by not doing anything at all and introducing himself to NERV/explain what was going on when he first came down in the Mark 06, but the Wunder doesn't even know Kaworu exists despite how he must have been with Gendo and NERV for years, and Rei never talks to hi- 
MechaX fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 18:24
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I remember a throwaway line about the Mark 6 being turned into an autonomous unit, so it seems likely that Kaworu wasn't at the helm when all the poo poo went down. Ah here it is in the wiki "Remodeled into an autonomous type, exploitation by the Lilin brought the unit to this state of ruin."
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Nov 19, 2013 18:32
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Shinji doesn't know if he's actually responsible for everything that happened during and after Third Impact or not, he just has to take everyone's word for it. I'm pretty sure stumping the audience with the same problem is deliberate. The interesting thing about 3.33 is that even though it doesn't actually answer the question, it portrays the question itself as incredibly harmful. Every character obsessed with guilt only makes things worse. Misato tries to punish Shinji out of a confused mixture of affection and anger, and all it does is back him into a corner. Kaworu tries to ritualistically assume and erase it and all he accomplishes is piling his own death onto Shinji's conscience. Fuyutsuki's conversation with Shinji is superficially good advice, but telling him to find a place of calm and stillness is a joke when coupled with the emotional bomb of "by the way, your mother was eaten by a giant robot for your sake and your father resents you and himself for it, but don't think too badly of him." The only person who really helps Shinji is Asuka, who tells him to shut up and move forward and completely bypasses the issue of guilt. She's also the only major character in the film who shows signs of getting over her own damage instead of endlessly stewing in it. (With the minor exception of Rei, who has a breakthrough at the very end... triggered by something Asuka said to her.)
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Nov 19, 2013 19:17
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Here's a theory for you! Shinji actually is all of the Third Children; there is only one Eva and he is the only pilot. Each "other" pilot is one facet of his personality; submissive, hateful, assertive, and loving (Rei, Asuka, Toji, and Kaworu respectively). Throughout the series, he is confronted by these different personas and tries to reconcile with them, but they end up being either too strong to conquer or too weak to be useful. By End of Evangelion, all of these aspects have been killed off and maimed in poetic ways; Rei rejects Gendo for the first time and immediately accepts becoming a monster, Asuka feels loved once again and charges to her death, Toji has long ago been crippled because of his eagerness to pilot, and Kaworu's love for Shinji is twisted by Lilith and used against him. Shinji wakes up on the beach after triumphing over his own extremes, and after briefly trying to strangle his avatar of hate, is finally able to be comfortable as himself. And hey, hows about that time when the giant robot charged through a wall and punched the calico cat-demon in the face, boy howdy.
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Nov 19, 2013 19:44
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I don't think they all need to be Shinji for that observation of their roles to be relevant.
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Nov 19, 2013 19:48
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notZaar posted:or what that giant white Rei head is. I thought that was pretty obvious. Shinji descends into Terminal Dogma and sees Lilith's decapitated corpse. End of Evangelion established that Lilith has Rei's face. When Lilith's body corpse exploded, so did the Rei head. The giant Rei head is the decapitated head of Lilith.
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Nov 19, 2013 19:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't think they all need to be Shinji for that observation of their roles to be relevant. "Not extrapolating wildly"? In NGE? I beg your pardon. Next you're gonna tell me that the Evangelion horse race video isn't canon.
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Nov 19, 2013 19:53
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Soho Joe posted:"Not extrapolating wildly"? In NGE? I beg your pardon. It totally is. Everything is canon.
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Nov 19, 2013 20:13
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Soho Joe posted:Next you're gonna tell me that the Evangelion horse race video isn't canon. It is canon that Gendo Ikari has laughed exactly once in his entire life.  the rainbow was canon too
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Nov 19, 2013 22:41
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Soho Joe posted:Here's a theory for you! Shinji actually is all of the Third Children; there is only one Eva and he is the only pilot. Each "other" pilot is one facet of his personality; submissive, hateful, assertive, and loving (Rei, Asuka, Toji, and Kaworu respectively). Throughout the series, he is confronted by these different personas and tries to reconcile with them, but they end up being either too strong to conquer or too weak to be useful. Children and adolescents do that anyway. Anyway, Touji isn't habitually aggressive - the only times he is (punching Shinji/piloting) he's motivated by love of others.
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Nov 20, 2013 00:02
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I just finished watching 3.0 and I have to say I am impressed and I like the way they went with it. One thing I want to check though:when Shinji saved Rei at the end of 2.22, when the resulting 3rd impact he started was stopped, was there a second 3rd impact that was not stopped after that? I noticed this when we heard that unit 6 was automated and that there was a 12th angel sealed in it. Basically after Shinji/Rei were abosrbed into unit 1, there were no active pilots asides from Kaworu left? Hence why the 12 angel got so far as to meld with Lilth? So basically, Shinji wakes up in a world where he or Rei were not alive to kill the 12th Angle, then 3rd impact happened because of this. If so why the gently caress is everyone blaming Shinji? Foul Ole Ron fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Nov 20, 2013 |
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Nov 20, 2013 01:56
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Foul Ole Ron posted:I just finished watching 3.0 and I have to say I am impressed and I like the way they went with it. I'm going to guess that The reason everything went to poo poo was that even though Kaworu disabled Unit 01 and stopped the direct impetus of Third Impact (the Gate of Guf,) A) The partial impact was still enough to cause catastrophic environmental changes that probably killed thousands, if not millions of people on their own, and/or B) Even though Unit 01 had been stopped it was still active long enough to wake up Lilith or catalyze some sort of reaction that Gendo/SEELE were able to make use of that would have otherwise not happened, necessitating the quick refit of unit 06 and the lancing of GNR. Basically I don't necessarily consider it a "plot hole" because Impacts are inherently confusing events that have multiple stages and interconnecting parts, as well as several different triggers. The important part to understand is 3.0 flat out would not have happened if Shinji hadn't kickstarted 3rd impact, either directly or indirectly.
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Nov 20, 2013 02:33
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Foul Ole Ron posted:I just finished watching 3.0 and I have to say I am impressed and I like the way they went with it. The specifics are unclear but basically Shinji going full God Mode kickstarted Third Impact. We did not see the specifics or the aftermath but the catalyzing trigger was Shinji and the only reason it didn't go through fully is because he got speared. Even an aborted Impact is bad poo poo for everyone though.
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Nov 20, 2013 02:42
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I hadn't thought of it this way before, but maybe it's true that Shinji had no further role in the instigation of TI beyond what we see in 2. Perhaps the survivors blame him for a) initiating a partial Impact, because the initiation lead to the arrival of something that would complete it, and b) willfully dropping out of physical existence at the moment he was needed most by the rest of humanity. So in essence they blame him for both certain actions and certain inactions, without which the decimation of the world not have taken place, and in a way they are right to do so, because it's not as if Shinji was unaware at the end of 2 that his behavior would lead to very dire (if only partially understood) consequences. In this way, even if he wasn't the one that 'pulled the trigger' directly, he is still the one on the hook for it because of his willing insolence. Edit: like something out of the Old Testament, where it isn't the devil who is punished for tempting man, because that's the devil's nature; it's man who is punished, because he chooses to sin. Even if his sin is seemingly minor, it's not the result of sin that makes it so, but the disobedience. SMERSH Mouth fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Nov 20, 2013 |
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Nov 20, 2013 03:06
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I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:
I think it was Tuxedo who did a writeup comparing Shinji's arc to the tale of oedipus, and how a lot of the events in 3.0 are perfectly in line with the nature of a Greek tragedy?
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Nov 20, 2013 03:31
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I think they blame him for two reasons: Fear and Resentment. They fear him because he's an example of the potentially disastrous results that can come from uncontrolled emotions. They also fear him because, like it's been said already, he took the most dangerous weapon of humankind and went beyond operating protocol, achieving a transcendental state with (again) disastrous results. They fear him because they fear the unknown. They don't know what he's capable of now and whether he can be controlled or not, and that scares them. They resent him because he's a constant reminder to the fact that they were played by Gendo the whole time while they were at NERV. They thought they were doing a good thing by wiping out the Angels, but then got blindsided when they found out what Gendo's true goal was. Therefore, Shinji serves as the constant reminder of that betrayal while in the Wunder. Asuka in particular has a massive amount of resentment towards Shinji (symbolized by her punching the glass between them), mainly because just when she was beginning to open up and accept others, she was let down by the one person who she thought would be willing to do whatever it took to save her (the EVA-03 incident). Presumably she found out that this same person went and nearly destroyed all life on earth for the sake of another, without regarding the ramifications. That's my take on it, anyway.
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Nov 20, 2013 04:31
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:48 |
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mr. stefan posted:I think it was Tuxedo who did a writeup comparing Shinji's arc to the tale of oedipus, and how a lot of the events in 3.0 are perfectly in line with the nature of a Greek tragedy? Absolutely, I buy the Oedipus thing wholeheartedly. Anno's just moved the "killed Laius" thing from the beginning to the very end.
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Nov 20, 2013 05:44
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