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Barry Foster posted:Give The Player of Games a go next. I really do think it's the best intro to the Culture series. I wholeheartedly second this.
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Dec 3, 2013 01:26
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MeLKoR posted:I wholeheartedly second this. Thirding. I'm not sure why Use of Weapons is recommended in the OP above Player of Games as an introduction to the Culture. I think it's much more enjoyable once you have a grounding in the way they operate and the sort of things SC gets up to. Edit: And from what I remember of this thread I don't think recommended Player of Games as a starting point is actually that rare.
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Dec 3, 2013 10:04
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Use of Weapons isn't an intro at all. It feels like you've picked it up in the middle of something, nothing is explained and you just guess that Contact and Special Circumstances are for making contact and dealing with special circumstances from name alone. If there is actually another book that explains this stuff, prior to chapters of .. man, I read the 'Zalakawe trips out on dream-leaf with some Indian girl' chapter last night. That was just lovely, there is no way to defend that. What was that about? Why was it there? What was the significance? It really read like Banks had smoked a big bowl of weed and sat down at his typewriter.
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Dec 3, 2013 10:19
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Use of Weapons' digressions aren't that bad, but if they bother you that much... well, there's at least one Culture novel which is nothing but a giant shaggy dog story.
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Dec 3, 2013 10:20
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Ok, seriously now. What did that chapter mean? You guys sound familiar with the book. You must know what I'm talking about, I can go and get a chapter number and page number if you want. Enough vague designs in the air about this writing, lets get specific. Why was it there? Who genuinely enjoyed it? Why wasn't it just drivel, which is how it appeared to me? I do read the book late at night to put me to sleep, so I'm probably not in the most analytical of moods. But I just want to really hear some insight here I'm missing.
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Dec 3, 2013 10:26
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Its hard to talk about Use of Weapons to someone who's in the middle of it and unhappy, because the whole book revolves a Thing that everyone's trying not to spoil. If you don't like it, you don't like it and that's fine; every Culture book is written somewhat differently, and UoW is intentionally obtuse. If it really offends your sensibilities, try another book and see if you have any taste for the Culture as a whole before resuming (or not). Also, chiming in agreement that PoG is the best place to start, though I confess that the fact I heard it was inspired by a one-more-turn Civilization bender might prejudice me in its favor.
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Dec 3, 2013 11:01
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Tony Montana posted:Ok, seriously now. That's the one that ends with him escorting some Princeling to be crowned or something? Part of it is to show Zakalwe's dissociation and loss of identity. He gets dropped into so many planets, takes on so many aliases that he's starting to unravel. The Culture doesn't care about his mental health as long as he gets the job done. The Culture, that happy-clappy hugbox of kindness doesn't care, they just drop him down certainly knowing that he'll have to undergo a near-fatal spirit walk. The end of the chapter also shows how hosed up Contacts MO is. Zakalwe is convinced the guy he's meant to be helping is a loving idiot, and can't understand why the Culture is suddenly helping a monarchy over the rebels. Surprise! The Prince is infertile and his reign marks the end of the monarchy. Zakalwe had no idea about that, he was just sent in to win the war for him. Things like that are why Zakalawe hosed up so much on the planet he tried to engineer at the start, he has no idea how to do a planetary intervention. The title is Use of Weapons, which means Zakalwe. He's not an agent, he's a weapon. Skaffen-Amitsaw, the sentient giggling gunplatform is more of an agent than him. There's a great line (I think it's in the chapter before the drugs, with the hostage woman, when Zakalwe gets all morose about the battle) about the times when Zakalwe fails on his mission, when everything goes wrong, and the Culture seems strangely unworried. The implication being that his mission was to fail. Sometimes the Culture needs him to lead an army and pull it out the fire in some spectacular fashion. But other times they drop him on a planet where he's going to completely gently caress up the mission, but knowing that he'll gently caress it up in the right way. This is why most people recommend Use of Weapons after Player of Games, which gives a much more thorough look at Special Circumstance's and their methods. It's a shame that Weapons only hints at it, because you need to know that to get Zakalwe's arc. Banks hints at it in the book, but with some more elaboration at the start it would be a fantastic stand-alone character piece on the Culture as well as Zakalwe. Edit: I actually thought the digressions where the best bit. The Mr Staberinde chapters dragged for me.
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Dec 3, 2013 11:03
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Ok. Someone alluded to this on the last page. I appreciate not spoiling it. I will be quiet and finish the book and come back after. Perhaps it will all make sense in the end and Banks has pulled an incredible swifty on me (from beyond the grave). If this is the case I will be suitably impressed. Thank you. I don't know if I could have worked this out from what I read, by the end of the chapter there has been so much weird poo poo going on when Banks actually starts talking about the Prince and the ended line I was almost skipping pages (I didn't, I never do, but I was tempted). Yes, perhaps I needed some solid background before starting with the crazy book of metaphor about a intergalactic civilization I have no idea about. Tony Montana fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 11:05
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Words God drat it. Went to refresh myself on the chapter only to come back and find somebody had summed up my thoughts more eloquently than I could have hoped to. Tony Montana posted:Ok. Someone alluded to this on the last page. I appreciate not spoiling it. Yeah, finish the book. The main part of that chapter is all contained in the final paragraph and the idea of the Use of Weapons. Banks does a good job of tightly marrying the title to the main idea he explores in each of his books. Often, you only appreciate this properly when you get to the end.
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Dec 3, 2013 11:19
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Another thing that might put some people off the Culture books is that most of the time the protagonist of the story ends up not playing a significant role in the unfolding of events. That must be especially jarring for someone starting with Use of Weapons because you miss a lot of subtlety of what is going on. The Minds are the kind of entity that would carefully analyze the cost/benefit of wiping out the political leaders of a planet and if it would be beneficial in the long run they'd calculate where to drop a butterfly so that it's wings will eventually cause a hurricane that will wipe out the capital city and the leaders along with it. Humans are at best beloved pets to taken care of and cherished and worst tools/weapons to be used for the greater good. In any case humans are always out of their depth and basically stumble along for the ride, trying to put the pieces together and make sense of anything that is happening around them, same as the reader. And the thing is that this is the closest to utopia you could get.
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Dec 3, 2013 12:33
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I wouldn't say humans are pets. They aren't solely around for the Minds' entertainment and their right to live as equally as possible is generally strongly upheld. The Sleeper Service basically plays the role of a (manipulative, interfering) friend. Hub from LTW dies clinging to a human-intelligence being for solace. The statistically tiny number of humans in Consider Phlebas that can work as something approaching equals are happily included. The thing is, space, and the kinds of empires that could fill it, are just too big. It's not that the Minds look down on us as subservient pets - they're just more capable in every way, and better suited to the world the Culture inhabits. I guess what I'm saying is that humans aren't really treated as lesser - they simply can't escape, especially in an anarchy, the fact that their creations are better than them. Honestly, I think the biggest conceit of the setting is that humans and drones haven't simply upgraded themselves to be on the level of Minds. But then we'd have a totally different set of novels about far distant transhumanism, so 
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Dec 3, 2013 13:05
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Strategic Tea posted:I wouldn't say humans are pets. They aren't solely around for the Minds' entertainment and their right to live as equally as possible is generally strongly upheld. The Sleeper Service basically plays the role of a (manipulative, interfering) friend. Hub from LTW dies clinging to a human-intelligence being for solace. I didn't mean pets in a deprecating way. It's just that humans are so limited that from the point of view of the Minds we are less intelligent than cats are, compared to people. They obviously value our company as sentient beings otherwise they wouldn't bother with us, and they respect our will and opinions otherwise we'd have no input at all but the fact remains that due to our physical limitations we are mostly tagging along for the ride. Also, being so vastly superior the Minds can largely get away with grooming humans by any means including deception (though not outright lies) into wanting whatever the Minds figured out is best. quote:Honestly, I think the biggest conceit of the setting is that humans and drones haven't simply upgraded themselves to be on the level of Minds. But then we'd have a totally different set of novels about far distant transhumanism, so MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 13:39
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MeLKoR posted:The only thing I find unrealistic is that I think most people would overwhelmingly choose immortality, even if only as a digital entity, rather than voluntarily die after a few hundred years. I just assumed the Minds themselves were doing some kind of subtle social engineering to ensure that living forever was seen as an unpopular, selfish decision that no civic-minded person should bother with.
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Dec 3, 2013 14:05
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It's mentioned that quite a few people drop their personalities into a groupminds, I think, and an awful lot of then get digitally or physically suspended until the ultimate sublimation of the Culture. I think a fair percentage of dead Culture citizens will be being reborn in the leadup to the sublime.
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Dec 3, 2013 14:08
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I just assumed the Minds themselves were doing some kind of subtle social engineering to ensure that living forever was seen as an unpopular, selfish decision that no civic-minded person should bother with. It's mentioned that the small number of "immortals" are borderline crazy (In Hydrogen Sonata, look at QiRia - he's gone straight off the deep end) and at the very least obsessed with keeping themselves alive. It's quite possible the average Culture citizen looks at those examples and goes "Yeaahhhh... probably not a good idea." MikeJF posted:I think a fair percentage of dead Culture citizens will be being reborn in the leadup to the sublime. Or as nubile cheerleaders if Notromg Town ever won the Orbital Cup. 
Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 14:22
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:It's mentioned that the small number of "immortals" are borderline crazy (look at QiRia from The Hydrogen Sonata) and at the very least obsessed with keeping themselves alive. It's quite possible the average Culture citizen looks at those examples and goes "Yeaahhhh... probably not a good idea." Put the book title outside the spoiler tag so people know not to mouse over it please. What I meant to post: Use of Weapons is thematically summed up by the line "The bomb lives only as it is falling." Keep that in mind while you read and you'll appreciate the 'literary' approach of some of the duller chapters.
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Dec 3, 2013 15:20
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Tony Montana posted:Ok, seriously now. This is 'V', starting on 292 (in the paperback at least)? I'm not a big fan of the chapter opening but once it hits Sma and Zakalwe's drunken conversation I think it gets going (here you get an allusion to Earth's role in the Culture universe) and the ending is deeply important to the book's themes, including an allusion ('All he'd done ever done was because there was something to be done. You used those weapons, whatever they might happen to be.') to one of the book's central truths, the 'It had two shadows, it was two things...' passage. And the very conclusion is important both in terms of Zakalwe's journey and Banks' broader themes about the roles of individuals in the Culture's plans.
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Dec 3, 2013 15:54
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I like whenever someone comes to post about their first time reading Use of Weapons. Regardless of where they land on the book, it always provokes some great posting 
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Dec 4, 2013 02:39
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General Battuta posted:(here you get an allusion to Earth's role in the Culture universe) I don't recall earth being mentioned in Use of Weapons at all? Is it alluded to and I missed it or have I simply forgotten?
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Dec 4, 2013 10:23
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Eau de MacGowan posted:I don't recall earth being mentioned in Use of Weapons at all? Is it alluded to and I missed it or have I simply forgotten? General Battuta was actually looking at a different chapter to the one Tony Motana was talking about. In V, where Sma and Zakalwe get drunk and chat, Sma mentions a planet where they use a chair to kill people, putting a metal cap on their head and something under it, like a wet sponge, to act as a conductor and then fry their brain with electricity. Then she says something like "and the state where this happens has a law against cruel and unusual punishment!"
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Dec 4, 2013 14:31
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Amused Frog posted:General Battuta was actually looking at a different chapter to the one Tony Motana was talking about. In V, where Sma and Zakalwe get drunk and chat, Sma mentions a planet where they use a chair to kill people, putting a metal cap on their head and something under it, like a wet sponge, to act as a conductor and then fry their brain with electricity. Then she says something like "and the state where this happens has a law against cruel and unusual punishment!" Oh, yeah, I am probably looking at a different one. Zakalwe does trip on some drug in V, leading into his memory of a drunken talk with Sma, but I think Tony was talking about a different trip.
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Dec 4, 2013 15:05
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Jet Jaguar posted:Oh, great! Raw Spirit is finally available on Kindle now.
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Dec 6, 2013 02:35
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I just finished reading "The Bridge", it was really awesome. Some parts were kind of hard to read because English is not my native language, but it was pretty good anyway. Specially near the end when everything clicks together. If you like the Culture series, this is a must read.
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Dec 7, 2013 03:55
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So has Tony Montana finished UoW yet?
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Dec 23, 2013 00:55
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Hehe, nearly there! I'm on the last few pages but I'm just skiing everyday and generally tired as poo poo. I'll knock it off in the next 48 hours for sure
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Dec 23, 2013 00:58
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The Quarry was cheap on Amazon recently so I gave it a read. I liked it and it seems like a fitting (if sadly premature) last book. Strangely there are lots of parallels with his first book, The Wasp Factory. I know that he said that he'd written most of the book before he knew about his own cancer, but it's still difficult not to see quite a lot of Banks in Guy, especially in his final rants after they find the tape and when he's on the bridge.
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Dec 23, 2013 01:14
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Avulsion posted:Kind of dark? That book makes WH40K seem optimistic. It's so capitalistically dark too. The Logjam, like many things on Golter, was created primarily for tax reasons. But I quite like a society that has forgotten more than it knows. Also on Use of Weapons, the film, when it comes to differing scenes You could use different actors, but making it vaguely ambiguous with framing or excessive use of bandages could conceal who is who. Afterall, adult Zakalwe isn't seen very often, and everything after that is just them as children or teenagers, which could warrant dramatically differently aged actors. Adult Elthomiel is never seen, as far as I can remember. If their main different is hair color, you could quite easily explain that away, considering he is supposed to change his identity fairly quickly after the war. Damnit, I just read this a couple of months ago and now I'mg oing to have to do it all over again, making notes on how to adapt it to film or TV (A HBO series would be ideal).
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Dec 23, 2013 07:49
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SpookyLizard posted:It's so capitalistically dark too. The Logjam, like many things on Golter, was created primarily for tax reasons. But I quite like a society that has forgotten more than it knows. Just say that he got plastic surgery (or the local equivalent) when fleeing his homeworld. He was a mass murdering war criminal on the lam, so it's not unlikely. I think any movie based on Use of Weapons is just going to be a disappointment unless it radically alters the story to fit the time and technical constraints of the medium. Much of the book's feel and style won't translate into moving pictures very well without a lot of careful editing.
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Dec 23, 2013 11:20
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Ok, I'm done. Well. Quite the kick in the balls, isn't it? Can some people articulate why they like this work so much? Just dot points really.. but I kinda get the feeling that I want to read it again, knowing the mighty twist.. as it makes me think about the previous chapters in a different way. Why not let me into the twist earlier so I can think in this way rather than want to read the book twice? The twist is epic.. but I just don't know about the book's narrative strength. Interested to hear some points on perhaps stuff I didn't see.
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Dec 25, 2013 18:13
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Give it HBO and David Simon make it.
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Dec 25, 2013 18:48
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I honestly think Use Of Weapons isn't a good first Culture book; the thing deliberately heaps confusion on you, and dealing with that along with an unknown setting can make things a mess. I feel if you already understand the universe it'd be far easier to assimilate the actual narrative.
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Dec 28, 2013 02:31
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Definitely. If Consider Phlebas had more Culture and less scene-swapping explosions, it'd be the perfect introduction. As is, I like telling people to read the Player of Games, even though it's an ambiguous beginning, fairly slow start and the meaning and themes aren't apparent until after the explosive finale. That said, that's probably the perfect summary of Iain Banks' work! I'd just like something a bit snappier to grab the attention. Perhaps if you gave a single page introduction to The Algebraist and then cut in to about 30% in where they start interacting with the Dwellers. I initally started reading Iain M. Banks because I wanted explosions in space, and his work made me realise I was actually after a darkly humourous, quite philosophical without being rubbish, galaxy-spanning book about crazy utopia vs. the rest of the galaxy. Quite, quite unique and just perfect. If there are any other authors who write books that are pretty dark and funny, but also pretty good metaphors that don't beat you around the head, with loving great endings, I'd love to hear about it! The one thing I've never been that keen about Iain M. Banks' books is that the beginnings are often quite hard to get into, but once you're in, you're stuck! Even if the middle is slow, you're still drawn in completely. The Supreme Court fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 03:47
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quote:but I kinda get the feeling that I want to read it again, knowing the mighty twist.. as it makes me think about the previous chapters in a different way. That's why I like it. I really wanted to give it a second go, and see how it changed my interpretation of everything. It almost transforms the work, like looking at an optical illusion and finally realizing how it really appears. Sure, Banks could have gone with something a lot more conventional, but I think the appeal actually lies in the unusual and interesting structure. One thing I glossed over, but was more acutely aware of my second time through was Zakalwe's reaction to chairs throughout his different campaigns. Lasting Damage fucked around with this message at 10:20 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 10:17
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Tony Montana posted:Ok, I'm done. Well. Quite the kick in the balls, isn't it? Can some people articulate why they like this work so much? Just dot points really.. but I kinda get the feeling that I want to read it again, knowing the mighty twist.. as it makes me think about the previous chapters in a different way. Why not let me into the twist earlier so I can think in this way rather than want to read the book twice? The twist is epic.. but I just don't know about the book's narrative strength. Obviously the twist is great, but I thought Zakalwe's characterization was the best part of the whole book. He is obviously this terribly broken man that can only do one thing, but he does it phenomenally well. He wants to be more than just a weapon, but he is so able at constructing and using weapons against others because that's all he is himself..
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Dec 30, 2013 20:07
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More Use of Weapons talk:And as a weapon, he's not so good at aiming himself. He messed it all up with his life extension scheme, and broke down when he lost confidence in Sma and the Culture to give him a righteous fight.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:06
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Tony Montana posted:Ok, I'm done. Well. Quite the kick in the balls, isn't it? Can some people articulate why they like this work so much? Just dot points really.. but I kinda get the feeling that I want to read it again, knowing the mighty twist.. as it makes me think about the previous chapters in a different way. Why not let me into the twist earlier so I can think in this way rather than want to read the book twice? The twist is epic.. but I just don't know about the book's narrative strength. It's like you get two books for the price of one, and reading it a second time is a different experience enough that it's actually rewarding and worth doing. Seriously, read some of the discussion in this thread, mull it over, let the story settle a bit and read it again when you feel like it, perhaps after reading one or two other Culture novels. You'll pick up on things that you glossed over the first time, or read as just a bit of inconsequential world or character building, or just a bit of fluff to set the mood, and realise that it was actually a pretty huge thing that changes a lot. Bits that didn't make much sense suddenly come into focus. UoW was one of the few books that really, really surprised me and showed me how much a good writer can accomplish with a good narrative and made me a more thoughtful and attentive reader. I really envy people that have yet to read it for the first and (inevitably) second time.
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Dec 31, 2013 16:00
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I won't be too quick to judge UoW.. I will certainly let it settle and then read through the thread. But.. I just want to put this out there. I just devoured Starship Troopers. I couldn't put it down. Why do people rag on Heinlein so much? I think he's fantastic.. some of the moral and ethical discussion in the book I just read rates right up there with anything I've read or seen in the genre. The action is fast and frantic, truly exciting and doesn't feel fake. The technology is mindblowing and so much fun.. but still within the realms of a reality we have some connection with. To think this book was published in 59 really blows the mind. Banks exploration of AI was brilliant and I've never encountered a viewpoint like that, I am certainly richer for it. To say UoW isn't about scifi pew pew and more about a man and his journey.. you could say exactly the same thing about Troopers. Why do people say Heinlein is a lovely writer? Is it because books like Troopers obviously display some dated viewpoints? I just see those for what they are.. even revel in some of the upfront honesty in how people thought in those times. At no point, at any point in Troopers did I think 'hrm, that was a bit clumsy'. He got pretty militarily specific toward the conclusion, but he was a military man and it showed the contrast between a grunt's thought process and how much more is going on in the head of a commander. There is some really relevant deeper thought in there.. about the society they live in and how it relates to us. He even makes direct comparisons which ring surprisingly true now so many decades after it was written. As you all seem to be a step above the groupthink and parroting circlejerk (the way in which you answered my inital posts about UoW) - tell why Heinlein is considered to be anything less than masterful.
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Jan 1, 2014 18:46
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Tony Montana posted:As you all seem to be a step above the groupthink and parroting circlejerk (the way in which you answered my inital posts about UoW) - tell why Heinlein is considered to be anything less than masterful.
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Jan 2, 2014 00:53
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Tony Montana posted:Ok, I'm done. Well. Quite the kick in the balls, isn't it? Can some people articulate why they like this work so much? Just dot points really.. but I kinda get the feeling that I want to read it again, knowing the mighty twist.. as it makes me think about the previous chapters in a different way. Why not let me into the twist earlier so I can think in this way rather than want to read the book twice? The twist is epic.. but I just don't know about the book's narrative strength. A friend of mine agrees with you - he didn't feel like the twist actually forced him to reconceptualise or revise his thoughts about anything that happened earlier in the book. He felt it was just tacked on and ultimately not particularly meaningful. I couldn't disagree more. After I finished Use of Weapons, I realised that Zakalwe had spent the entire book not having been traumatised by someone else (the hinted-at chairmaker) but by himself. This changes the book from being one about rehabilitation and or revenge to one about redemption (or, I suppose, rehabilitation in a very different sense). He's not running from something, he's running from himself. On a less 'plot' but more 'emotive' level, I had spent the whole book sympathising with Zakalwe, and then it turned out he was actually much more of a monster than I ever could have imagined. That stung. I literally lay awake for a whole hour thinking about this stuff when I finished the book. On another note, I gave my mother-in-law The Business for Christmas, and got an email from her this morning saying that she hasn't been able to put it down. I'm really glad, because that was my experience with that book. I really should re-read it though, the resolution of the main thriller/conspiracy thread is super hazy for me (I don't think I fully pieced it together at the time), and it was such fun to read. And I've never really quite worked out what I thought of Kate's ultimate marriage decision.
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Jan 2, 2014 01:05
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Tony Montana posted:As you all seem to be a step above the groupthink and parroting circlejerk (the way in which you answered my inital posts about UoW) - tell why Heinlein is considered to be anything less than masterful. Starship Troopers was very good, but also presented a highly idealized version of the military. Everything worked, high technology for the troopers and most of the people in the book were extremely competent. Check out "Bill the Galactic Hero" by Harry Harrison. It's a scatter-shot satirical take on Starship Troopers, and is pretty jokey. Just about everything glorious in Starship Troopers is deconstructed/expanded upon. However, the Bill book presents a way more realistic view on how the military works/will always work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill,_the_Galactic_Hero quantumfoam fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jan 2, 2014 |
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Jan 2, 2014 02:45
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