The Ultimate BSD Thread™ - The Devil Wears a Neckbeard

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The_Franz: Aug 8, 2003

alyandon posted:

Yeah, I managed to get FreeBSD 10 installed via the memstick image onto a VM with a root ZFS partition using a custom script so that's definitely an improvement. Of course, I quickly discovered that pkgng still has an empty repository and all the pkg_* commands are no longer available so I'm left compiling everything from ports. :-/

Does anyone have any idea if pkgng is going to actually be in a usable state out-of-the-box by the time FreeBSD 10 is released?

Probably, as not having a working package manager at release would be a pretty big flaw. 10 is still in alpha so it stands to reason that things may not be fully working yet. In the meantime you should be able to use the PC-BSD pkg repo as they build packages directly from the ports collection. I use it with 9.2 and it works perfectly.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 16:58

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# ? May 23, 2024 19:40

alyandon: Dec 9, 2001; Poster of the Month for July!; Fun Shoe

The_Franz posted:

Probably, as not having a working package manager at release would be a pretty big flaw. 10 is still in alpha so it stands to reason that things may not be fully working yet. In the meantime you should be able to use the PC-BSD pkg repo as they build packages directly from the ports collection. I use it with 9.2 and it works perfectly.

Interesting, I'll check that out then. Thanks.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 17:48

Computer viking: May 30, 2011; Now with less breakage.

One would indeed hope so. Poudriere is capable of doing it, they have the hardware, and it would be silly to do a release without packages in the repository...

# ? Sep 23, 2013 17:54

Computer viking: May 30, 2011; Now with less breakage.

Side note: God, I hate the common-in-linux thing where their stable server releases have massively outdated packages (possibly "massively outdated packages with security backports"). Samba4 on ubuntu server, you say? Nooo. You see, replacing a non-working version with something that worked would be too disruptive.

(There is a bug. It's marked as fixed. The version with the fix isn't in the LTS release, which is what the original reporter was using. Ugh.)

... what I'm trying to say is that I rather appreciate having current ports at hand.

# ? Sep 24, 2013 09:00

double riveting: Jul 5, 2013; look at them go

So, I figure this is the right thread to ask; what are people's opinions of ~~Solaris~~illumos these days?

I'm kind of seriously tempted to give it a spin. Which distros are worth trying? It looks like OpenIndiana is the mature thing to grab, esp. for desktops. I'll try their live system once I find an empty USB stick to use...

# ? Oct 11, 2013 01:11

EvilMoFo: Jan 1, 2006

Solaris hasn't been BSD based for quite a while now, not sure why this would be the place to ask. :colbert:

# ? Oct 11, 2013 07:56

Computer viking: May 30, 2011; Now with less breakage.

EvilMoFo posted:

Solaris hasn't been BSD based for quite a while now, not sure why this would be the place to ask.

Well, there's probably a decent overlap of users between the two non-linux noncommercial ZFS-having OSes. I can't help, though; I haven't used anything solaris-based more than very sporadically many years ago.

# ? Oct 11, 2013 12:15

double riveting: Jul 5, 2013; look at them go

EvilMoFo posted:

Solaris hasn't been BSD based for quite a while now, not sure why this would be the place to ask.

I couldn't find a SVR4 thread, so it's at least more BSD-based than Linux, say.

e: Of course Linux isn't BSD-derived at all, but anyway.

double riveting fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Oct 11, 2013

# ? Oct 11, 2013 12:40

hifi: Jul 25, 2012

double riveting posted:

So, I figure this is the right thread to ask; what are people's opinions of ~~Solaris~~illumos these days?

I'm kind of seriously tempted to give it a spin. Which distros are worth trying? It looks like OpenIndiana is the mature thing to grab, esp. for desktops. I'll try their live system once I find an empty USB stick to use...

From a quick search it looks like KMS support is either not implemented or still under development, so for more modern GPUs I wouldn't bother.

# ? Oct 11, 2013 19:39

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

double riveting posted:

So, I figure this is the right thread to ask; what are people's opinions of ~~Solaris~~illumos these days?

Not sure what to think about them. Initially, after Oracle was being Oracle, it looked like an interesting alternative. However, things aren't really advancing that much. The development on it seems a bare fraction of what happened back at Sun.

# ? Oct 12, 2013 01:04

feld: Feb 11, 2008; Out of nowhere its.....

Feldman

There has been a public test repo for a while

http://pkg-test.freebsd.org/pkg-test-${ABI}/latest

The 10.0-RELEASE should have zfs working in the installer. It's being tested.

The 10.0-RELEASE will also have signed packages in the repo

# ? Oct 17, 2013 01:42

alyandon: Dec 9, 2001; Poster of the Month for July!; Fun Shoe

Just installed FreeBSD 10 beta2. Installer has root-on-zfs support (although the installer dies in the middle of copying files due to lack of swap space if you don't more than 1 GB of ram) and pkg works out of the box.

The future is (almost) now!

# ? Oct 31, 2013 18:14

Computer viking: May 30, 2011; Now with less breakage.

feld posted:

There has been a public test repo for a while

http://pkg-test.freebsd.org/pkg-test-${ABI}/latest

The 10.0-RELEASE should have zfs working in the installer. It's being tested.

The 10.0-RELEASE will also have signed packages in the repo

As of yesterday:

Bryan Dewery (as portmgr) posted:

We are pleased to announce that official binary packages are now
available for pkg, the next generation package management tool for FreeBSD.

Pkg allows you to either use ports with portmaster/portupgrade or to
have binary remote packages without ports.

We have binary packages available for i386 and amd64 on
8.3,8.4,9.1,9.2,10.0 and 11 (head).

Pkg will be the default starting in FreeBSD 10.

The pkg_install suite of tools pkg_create(1), pkg_add(1), and
pkg_info(1) (which ports also use), are deprecated and will be
discontinued in roughly 6 months. A communication regarding the
deprecation of the pkg_install suite of tools will be sent separately in
the future.

If you are currently not using pkg and wish to, run the following as
root. Be sure not to add WITH_PKGNG=yes to your make.conf until after
pkg is installed.
code:
  # cd /usr/ports/ports-mgmt/pkg && make install clean
  # echo WITH_PKGNG=yes >> /etc/make.conf
  # pkg2ng
You can now either continue to use ports with portmaster/portupgrade, as
before or switch to using binary packages only.

To use binary packages:
Ensure your pkg(8) is up-to-date. pkg -v should say at least
1.1.4_8. If it does not, first upgrade from ports.

Remove any repository-specific configuration from
/usr/local/etc/pkg.conf, such as PACKAGESITE, MIRROR_TYPE, PUBKEY.
If this leaves your pkg.conf empty, just remove it.

mkdir -p /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos
Create the file /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/FreeBSD.conf with:
code:
FreeBSD: {
  url: "http://pkg.FreeBSD.org/${ABI}/latest",
  mirror_type: "srv",
  enabled: "yes"
}
* Note that pkg.FreeBSD.org does not have a browsable web page on it and
does not have a DNS A record. This is intended as it is an SRV host.
pkg(8) knows how to properly use it. You can use 'pkg search' to browse
the available packages in the repository.

Mirrors you may use instead of the global pkg.FreeBSD.org:

pkg.eu.FreeBSD.org
pkg.us-east.FreeBSD.org
pkg.us-west.FreeBSD.org

Your system is now ready to use packages!

Refer to the handbook section on pkgng for usage at
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/pkgng-intro.html.
Also see 'man pkg' for examples or 'pkg help'.

Packages are built weekly from a snapshot of the Ports Collection every
Wednesday morning 01:00 UTC. They typically will be available in the
repository after a few days.

Pkg 1.2 will be released in the coming month which will bring many
improvements including officially signed packages. FreeBSD 10's pkg
bootstrap now also supports signed pkg(8) installation.

Regards,
Bryan Drewery
on behalf of portmgr@

Computer viking fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Nov 1, 2013

# ? Nov 1, 2013 15:53

Volguus: Mar 3, 2009

I downloaded 10.0-BETA2, and told the installer to install on the pre-made BSD partition (where i had PCBsd already installed). For some reason it wanted me to provide a mount point. I provided /, but then (of course) it complained that BSD cannot be installed on a DOS partition that i would have to make a BSD one and make the appropriate slices (for swap at least).
I deleted the partition from the installer and remade it, but still is asking me for mount point on the DOS partition. If i provide / ... same thing as before.

I'm not exactly sure what this installer wants of me, or what can I do to make it make all that it needs within that partition that I provided for it. If anyone has any ideas that would be most appreciated.

# ? Nov 2, 2013 02:17

hifi: Jul 25, 2012

rhag posted:

I downloaded 10.0-BETA2, and told the installer to install on the pre-made BSD partition (where i had PCBsd already installed). For some reason it wanted me to provide a mount point. I provided /, but then (of course) it complained that BSD cannot be installed on a DOS partition that i would have to make a BSD one and make the appropriate slices (for swap at least).
I deleted the partition from the installer and remade it, but still is asking me for mount point on the DOS partition. If i provide / ... same thing as before.

I'm not exactly sure what this installer wants of me, or what can I do to make it make all that it needs within that partition that I provided for it. If anyone has any ideas that would be most appreciated.

I believe it wants you to format the disk and use bsd/gpt partitioning. I'm not really sure what your options are for trying to keep your current partitions though.

# ? Nov 2, 2013 03:11

Volguus: Mar 3, 2009

hifi posted:

I believe it wants you to format the disk and use bsd/gpt partitioning. I'm not really sure what your options are for trying to keep your current partitions though.

That's obviously not an option (not ready to give up my linux partitions yet). I'll fiddle more with it to see if i can maybe create the "a" and "b" slices it needs within the dos partition it receives.

# ? Nov 2, 2013 03:20

feld: Feb 11, 2008; Out of nowhere its.....

Feldman

rhag posted:

I downloaded 10.0-BETA2, and told the installer to install on the pre-made BSD partition (where i had PCBsd already installed). For some reason it wanted me to provide a mount point. I provided /, but then (of course) it complained that BSD cannot be installed on a DOS partition that i would have to make a BSD one and make the appropriate slices (for swap at least).
I deleted the partition from the installer and remade it, but still is asking me for mount point on the DOS partition. If i provide / ... same thing as before.

I'm not exactly sure what this installer wants of me, or what can I do to make it make all that it needs within that partition that I provided for it. If anyone has any ideas that would be most appreciated.

Please post this on the mailing lists. This is something I have not seen anyone test. Maybe even just send a PR http://freebsd.org/send-pr.html

# ? Nov 2, 2013 23:59

Volguus: Mar 3, 2009

feld posted:

Please post this on the mailing lists. This is something I have not seen anyone test. Maybe even just send a PR http://freebsd.org/send-pr.html

I fixed it by manually creating the a (for /) and the b (swap) partitions in the BSD partition. I dont think it was a bug but that it was just me having different expectations i guess.

# ? Nov 3, 2013 01:22

feld: Feb 11, 2008; Out of nowhere its.....

Feldman

rhag posted:

I fixed it by manually creating the a (for /) and the b (swap) partitions in the BSD partition. I dont think it was a bug but that it was just me having different expectations i guess.

I do think they intend for the partition editor to be as flexible as possible, though.

# ? Nov 3, 2013 02:27

Computer viking: May 30, 2011; Now with less breakage.

rhag posted:

I fixed it by manually creating the a (for /) and the b (swap) partitions in the BSD partition. I don't think it was a bug but that it was just me having different expectations i guess.

For later reference: That's an MBR partition, not a DOS partition. (The latter kind of implies a FAT format.)
More to the point, yeah ... that confused me at some point as well. I tend to use GPT these days, so I hadn't seen how it works with the new installer - but it's always been A Thing.

# ? Nov 4, 2013 00:10

The_Franz: Aug 8, 2003

Beware if you upgrade to 10.0-BETA3: after upgrading from BETA2 the /var/empty folder was gone which caused openssh to stop working. Not fun when dealing with a headless machine.

# ? Nov 5, 2013 17:18

alyandon: Dec 9, 2001; Poster of the Month for July!; Fun Shoe

The_Franz posted:

Beware if you upgrade to 10.0-BETA3: after upgrading from BETA2 the /var/empty folder was gone which caused openssh to stop working. Not fun when dealing with a headless machine.

I updated from BETA2 to BETA3 just now and didn't run into that problem. How did you perform the upgrade?

# ? Nov 5, 2013 18:01

The_Franz: Aug 8, 2003

alyandon posted:

I updated from BETA2 to BETA3 just now and didn't run into that problem. How did you perform the upgrade?

I used 'freebsd-update -r 10.0-BETA3 upgrade' followed by 'freebsd-update install' to install the initial patch set, rebooted as per the instructions, ran 'freebsd-update install' again to finish the upgrade, rebooted again and I suddenly couldn't connect via ssh anymore.

After I dragged my NAS out of the basement and hooked up a monitor, 'service openssh start' gave an error of "Missing privilege separation directory /var/empty". It was just a matter of recreating the folder to get everything working again, but it's odd that it just disappeared.

# ? Nov 5, 2013 18:15

alyandon: Dec 9, 2001; Poster of the Month for July!; Fun Shoe

That's exactly the steps I used to update and /var/empty survived the process. :-/

# ? Nov 5, 2013 18:21

Leb: Jan 15, 2004; Change came to America on November the 4th, 2008, in the form of an unassuming Senator from the state of Illinois.

So, hey, is FBSD 10 actually usable/stable/and stuff?

# ? Nov 6, 2013 02:33

alyandon: Dec 9, 2001; Poster of the Month for July!; Fun Shoe

Leb posted:

So, hey, is FBSD 10 actually usable/stable/and stuff?

So far it seems stable for me under moderate load in a virtual machine and I'm looking forward to installing it on real hardware this weekend. I didn't even have to configure anything for the new package manager to work out of the box.

# ? Nov 6, 2013 02:49

feld: Feb 11, 2008; Out of nowhere its.....

Feldman

Leb posted:

So, hey, is FBSD 10 actually usable/stable/and stuff?

Netflix has been running 10-CURRENT in production since like August/September and they push 30% of the traffic in North America from these FreeBSD CDN boxes.

It's stable.

# ? Nov 6, 2013 03:33

Ninja Rope: Oct 22, 2005; Wee.

The BSD used by big companies isn't usually the same thing that goes to the public, usually it's cherry picked patches and fixes. Plus their hardware is very specific and supported in-house, so there are a lot of parts of the system they won't use. It's not that simple.

# ? Nov 6, 2013 03:46

feld: Feb 11, 2008; Out of nowhere its.....

Feldman

Ninja Rope posted:

The BSD used by big companies isn't usually the same thing that goes to the public, usually it's cherry picked patches and fixes. Plus their hardware is very specific and supported in-house, so there are a lot of parts of the system they won't use. It's not that simple.

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I assume you mean situations like this:

EMC/Isilon SANs: FreeBSD 7/8 (working on going to FreeBSD 10, need to upstream patches especially for NFS)
Juniper JunOS/JunOSE: FreeBSD 6 with some backports
NetAPP SANs: FreeBSD, not 100% sure what version (fyi they are who donated bhyve, and they are on whitebox x86 hardware too)
Citrix Netscalers: FreeBSD 6 and black magic (way too much java in that product for me)

Netflix is running FreeBSD basically on whitebox servers. The only thing special is that they have 10gbit NICs. As soon as they finish upstreaming their patches for network performance they're going to be deploying 11-CURRENT on their *real* production boxes. They did a great presentation at vBSDCon which basically said two things:

- stop being afraid of FreeBSD dot-oh (??.0) releases. They haven't been dangerous since FreeBSD 5 and it won't happen again
- make the effort to stay up to date with HEAD/CURRENT. You can pay for it now or pay for it later with interest.

Big companies staying current with FreeBSD will avoid pain, prevent from diverging too far from upstream, and their issues will actually get attention by the developers.

Yahoo made a big mistake by staying on FreeBSD 4.11 long after its expiration date. They were afraid to update, and their infrastructure issues were certainly a part of their brand falling apart.

There was a lot of chatter among developers at the conference about a trend in Silicon Valley towards BSD. Lots of companies, new and old, are looking for consultants. GPL is finally being recognized as a burden -- lawyers are getting too expensive. Cheaper to retool on a BSD and not have to involve a legal team to make sure you're following the various versions of the GPL.

feld fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Nov 6, 2013

# ? Nov 6, 2013 23:34

feld: Feb 11, 2008; Out of nowhere its.....

Feldman

The_Franz posted:

I used 'freebsd-update -r 10.0-BETA3 upgrade' followed by 'freebsd-update install' to install the initial patch set, rebooted as per the instructions, ran 'freebsd-update install' again to finish the upgrade, rebooted again and I suddenly couldn't connect via ssh anymore.

After I dragged my NAS out of the basement and hooked up a monitor, 'service openssh start' gave an error of "Missing privilege separation directory /var/empty". It was just a matter of recreating the folder to get everything working again, but it's odd that it just disappeared.

in regards to missing /var/empty you apparently aren't the only one. I'm not sure if it's been fully solved yet, but:

bsd doods posted:

14:24 <@gjb> cperciva: hmm, '-i' does different things between 10.0-BETA2 and 10.0-BETA3
14:24 <@gjb> cperciva: for mtree, that is
14:28 <@cperciva> crap

# ? Nov 7, 2013 03:19

Ninja Rope: Oct 22, 2005; Wee.

Yes, but my point is that those companies aren't just downloading 10-BETA2 and putting it on production servers and calling it a day. They have FreeBSD committers on staff to work cherry-pick patches and test only specific configs, as well as fix bugs as they occur (and feed them back upstream). I didn't understand the question to be "is FreeBSD suitable for production", which in a general sense it is, but "is the latest FreeBSD 10 beta suitable for a random internet user to use in production", which I think the answer is no. It will be, but it's not right now.

# ? Nov 7, 2013 03:19

evol262: Nov 30, 2010; #!/usr/bin/perl

Ninja Rope posted:

Yes, but my point is that those companies aren't just downloading 10-BETA2 and putting it on production servers and calling it a day. They have FreeBSD committers on staff to work cherry-pick patches and test only specific configs, as well as fix bugs as they occur (and feed them back upstream). I didn't understand the question to be "is FreeBSD suitable for production", which in a general sense it is, but "is the latest FreeBSD 10 beta suitable for a random internet user to use in production", which I think the answer is no. It will be, but it's not right now.

To be honest, this workflow is just as applicable to Linux. The people who are doing serious performance work find odd bugs, fix or report them upstream, and cherry pick patches to backport onto older kernels (especially for large clusters). Nothing about this is unique to BSD, and I'd be just as comfortable running 10-BETA or Debian unstable or Fedora 19 for an nginx+Sinatra+passenger or postgres. You run RHEL or SLES for stable ABIs for enterprise software which needs them (Clearcase, OracleDB, whatever), and APIs to a lesser degree (though BSD is much better about this), not necessarily performance or stability under load.

# ? Nov 7, 2013 04:56

Ninja Rope: Oct 22, 2005; Wee.

Has anyone done virtualization on FreeBSD? Are kquemu and virtualbox the only/best options? Anyone have any experiences to share? Are they both terrible and I should wait for bhyve?

# ? Dec 10, 2013 01:58

Z3n: Jul 21, 2007; I think the point is Z3n is a space cowboy on the edge of a frontier unknown to man, he's out there pushing the limits, trail braking into the abyss. Finding out where the edge of the razor is, turning to face the darkness and revving his 690 into it's vast gaze. You gotta live this to learn it bro.

I've used virtualbox as a virtualization solution on Free. I wasn't doing anything crazy with it but it worked just fine and was nice and stable.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 03:49

wooger: Apr 16, 2005; YOU RESENT?

Ninja Rope posted:

Has anyone done virtualization on FreeBSD? Are kquemu and virtualbox the only/best options? Anyone have any experiences to share? Are they both terrible and I should wait for bhyve?

I've not, but what do you want to virtualise? Are you sure you can't just use Jails?

Bhyve is a little way off from supporting non-BSD guests last I checked.

# ? Dec 10, 2013 08:40

alyandon: Dec 9, 2001; Poster of the Month for July!; Fun Shoe

What is the proper procedure for updating a NetBSD system to get security fixes? In this case, I have 6.1.0 and I want to get to 6.1.2.

All the documentation on the NetBSD site seems to be geared towards tracking -current and rebuilding the entire system from source which I really don't want to do. I guess what I'm really hoping for is an equivalent of freebsd-update.

# ? Dec 19, 2013 19:37

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

Can anyone recommend a decent book/whatever on FreeBSD kernel programming, or even better, the same with a focus on the network stack?

My last foray into the area was a haphazard reading of the Linux scheduler, which was only possible with the aid of someone's masters' thesis effectively being "annotate the Linux scheduler code". I've got a general academic background in C programming, but haven't done any kernel programming of my own.

# ? Dec 25, 2013 08:58

Aleron235: Mar 21, 2003; Exquisite Sweet Delicacy

alyandon posted:

What is the proper procedure for updating a NetBSD system to get security fixes? In this case, I have 6.1.0 and I want to get to 6.1.2.

All the documentation on the NetBSD site seems to be geared towards tracking -current and rebuilding the entire system from source which I really don't want to do. I guess what I'm really hoping for is an equivalent of freebsd-update.

If you're able to burn a CD/memstick image of 6.1.2 and boot it, there's an upgrade option you can choose. Nothing easy like freebsd-update that I know of, unfortunately. Here's the relevant doc (I had trouble Googling it too): http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-upgrading.html

# ? Dec 25, 2013 09:53

Bluecobra: Sep 11, 2001; The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades

fivre posted:

Can anyone recommend a decent book/whatever on FreeBSD kernel programming, or even better, the same with a focus on the network stack?

My last foray into the area was a haphazard reading of the Linux scheduler, which was only possible with the aid of someone's masters' thesis effectively being "annotate the Linux scheduler code". I've got a general academic background in C programming, but haven't done any kernel programming of my own.

Though I am not a developer, I have heard good things about these books:

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Environment-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/0321637739/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
http://www.amazon.com/Unix-Network-Programming-Volume-Networking/dp/0131411551/ref=pd_sim_b_1
http://www.amazon.com/The-Design-UNIX-Operating-System/dp/0132017997/ref=pd_sim_b_43

You can pick up the older editions really cheap used. I own the last one and it's still an awesome book for non-developers.

# ? Dec 25, 2013 16:21

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# ? May 23, 2024 19:40

alyandon: Dec 9, 2001; Poster of the Month for July!; Fun Shoe

Aleron235 posted:

If you're able to burn a CD/memstick image of 6.1.2 and boot it, there's an upgrade option you can choose. Nothing easy like freebsd-update that I know of, unfortunately. Here's the relevant doc (I had trouble Googling it too): http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-upgrading.html

Thanks for the link. I'm going to give the sysupgrade utility a shot and I'm not entirely sure how I managed to miss it being an option the first time.

# ? Dec 28, 2013 06:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Ultimate BSD Thread™ - The Devil Wears a Neckbeard

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