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jsoh posted:I don't think any of the things that happened were cheap contrivances, though. Like I guess Victarion shows up and can be whatever gurm wants because hes a clean slate but the things Jon and Dany and Tyrion do are pretty consistent with their characters, I think.
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Dec 14, 2013 01:41
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:20 |
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What's stupid about surrounding yourself with advisers who despise you, constantly telling them they're dumb and doing the opposite of what they say even though they think your decisions will kill them, and then sending away all of your loyal friends?
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Dec 14, 2013 05:32
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Hey, all of the advisors that hate him are also loyal to the Nights Watch and only turn on him after he announces that he, the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, is going to march in force on his dead father's seat of power to rescue his sister.
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Dec 14, 2013 05:53
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What did Jon do that's so bad? I'm new to this thread. Why is Stannis so popular? He's dumb. Seriously though, when you first read a Robert scene, he's so awesome and fun. Only later do you realise that he's just a charismatic, selfish brute.
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Dec 14, 2013 06:08
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How can you be new to this thread with a giant 'WILD CARDS' gang tag  You must be a false Wild Card. The Mannis will deliver the false to justice.
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Dec 14, 2013 06:10
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redreader posted:What did Jon do that's so bad? I'm new to this thread. Why is Stannis so popular? He's dumb. Seriously though, when you first read a Robert scene, he's so awesome and fun. Only later do you realise that he's just a charismatic, selfish brute. Jon swore an oath to keep out of the politics of the realm and then consistently helped Stannis, the extreme underdog in the fight for the Iron Throne, putting his mission to defend the entirety of the world from living death and eternal winter in jeopardy, and then actually announced his intentions to directly attack the rightful(ish) Warden of the North and thus the entire Seven Kingdoms.
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Dec 14, 2013 06:19
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The parallels between Jon and Ned are also numerous.
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Dec 14, 2013 06:31
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syscall girl posted:The parallels between Jon and Ned are also numerous. Could you point some out because im just seeing "is dumb". Jon is more like his secret father Brandon. Chases his sister to death.
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Dec 14, 2013 06:40
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General Battuta posted:How can you be new to this thread with a giant 'WILD CARDS' gang tag I'm from before the TV show, peasant. I'm from one of the old, bad threads.
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Dec 14, 2013 06:51
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jsoh posted:Jon swore an oath to keep out of the politics of the realm and then consistently helped Stannis, the extreme underdog in the fight for the Iron Throne, putting his mission to defend the entirety of the world from living death and eternal winter in jeopardy, and then actually announced his intentions to directly attack the rightful(ish) Warden of the North and thus the entire Seven Kingdoms. Jon helped Stannis, the only person who gave a flying gently caress about him. If he were to deliver Stannis' head on a plate to Bolton, Bolton would say 'lol no you can't have even a single man' then flay Jon's face off.
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Dec 14, 2013 06:53
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redreader posted:Jon helped Stannis, the only person who gave a flying gently caress about him. If he were to deliver Stannis' head on a plate to Bolton, Bolton would say 'lol no you can't have even a single man' then flay Jon's face off. Yeah, but he is oathbound to not do either of those things
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Dec 14, 2013 07:00
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jsoh posted:Could you point some out because im just seeing "is dumb". Jon is more like his secret father Brandon. Chases his sister to death. Ned gets killed because of his dumb honor. Whereas Jon gets killed because he forsakes the honor of the brotherhood's neutrality out of hope for his sister's life. So that doesn't quite line up. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the both of them ignoring important information from women. For Ned there's an implied threat from Cersei. I can't remember what all she said, but he spurned her and then threatened her and her children, so he ought to have been able to perform the mental gymnastics there. And with Jon, there's Melisandre's vision, which he disregards because she's not infallible and he's willfully ignoring the increasingly bad situation he's in and just keeps digging. Maybe that last bit about the "daggers in the dark" is just 20/20 hindsight for the reader? I never gave Mel much credit at first and was always skeptical of her. But yeah, I guess it just boils down to them both being knuckleheads.
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Dec 14, 2013 07:10
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Ned and Jon are basically deconstructions of how heroes tended to act in traditional fantasy, which boils down to the fact that a lot of heroes act very stupidly but suffer little or no consequences because of plot armor, like they subconsciously recognize they're the driving force in a narrative and hence have massive leeway in their decisions. The problem is, with Ned it was shocking and amazing that a story actually called what appeared to be the hero on that and made him suffer the worst consequences possible, but by the time we get to Jon we realize that's Martin's basically cheated. Instead of it being a world where no one in theory has plot armor and you reap what you sow, Martin's reversed it: the only way to get anywhere is to be a heartless, soulless bastard focused entirely on getting what they want and assuming the world will just be better off because of it (or dismissing the world entirely). It's one thing to punish someone for the excesses of a traditional fantasy hero: it's another to structure it where the overall message is THIS BEHAVIOR IS STUPID THE CHARACTER IS SO STUPID THEY'RE DYING BECAUSE THEY'RE SO STUPID, like the second the person decided they wanted to have any empathy at all they deserved a terrible fate. Really, how many of you know complete assholes who just want what's best for them in your own real life? Do you really want them to succeed? Do you really like the idea that the world is set up so that its 'proper' for people like them to succeed, because they 'get it'? That factor, IMO, is Martin's biggest weakness and reeks of nerd overstimulation. Cornwind Evil fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 07:54
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jsoh posted:putting his mission to defend the entirety of the world from living death and eternal winter in jeopardy This is arguable, imo. Without things like "men" and "food" and "weapons", his mission is pretty much hosed, and since he doesn't really have things like that, well. His mission is pretty much hosed. Stannis is the only contender to give even half a poo poo about the Night's Watch, and you ain't gonna get something for nothing out of him. Jon made some pretty bad choices, but the only things he had to choose from were various flavours of lovely choices.
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Dec 14, 2013 08:09
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Khizan posted:This is arguable, imo. Without things like "men" and "food" and "weapons", his mission is pretty much hosed, and since he doesn't really have things like that, well. His mission is pretty much hosed. Stannis is the only contender to give even half a poo poo about the Night's Watch, and you ain't gonna get something for nothing out of him. Jon made some pretty bad choices, but the only things he had to choose from were various flavours of lovely choices. Stannis was not the correct choice, because he is outnumbered in hostile lands with no support base at all. Stannis is 100% a loser with the information Jon knows. He has no idea that there is a secret conspiracy among the most powerful Northern houses in support of Stan or that there is a giant wolf army eating bad guys or that Cersei has destroyed the house of Lannister or that loving dragons are going to be sweeping through the south or that Littlefinger is a giant turd lord, all he knows is he broke his oath to support the first rear end in a top hat who showed up and thats all the people who righteously removed him from office know too.
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Dec 14, 2013 08:15
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General Battuta posted:You must be a false Wild Card. A Tame Card, if you will.
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Dec 14, 2013 11:43
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redreader posted:I'm from before the TV show, peasant. I'm from one of the old, bad threads. This is the same thread, welcome back, book's not out.
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Dec 14, 2013 13:44
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The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Dec 14, 2013 14:21
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Long after man has passed from this land, the sun will dim. The moon will slowly drift away from the earth and the movements of the ocean will cease. The earth will die in silence and stillness. A memory of aeons past. And the book still won't be loving finished.
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Dec 14, 2013 17:54
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jsoh posted:Yeah, but he is oathbound to not do either of those things Not anymore.  Is the book out yet?
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Dec 14, 2013 19:05
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redreader posted:Why is Stannis so popular? He's dumb. Nuh huh, you're dumb.  The one true King of Westeros posted:I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. and other cool bits are why Stannis is the best.
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Dec 14, 2013 20:57
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Cornwind Evil posted:Martin's basically cheated. Instead of it being a world where no one in theory has plot armor and you reap what you sow, Martin's reversed it: the only way to get anywhere is to be a heartless, soulless bastard focused entirely on getting what they want and assuming the world will just be better off because of it (or dismissing the world entirely). It's one thing to punish someone for the excesses of a traditional fantasy hero: it's another to structure it where the overall message is THIS BEHAVIOR IS STUPID THE CHARACTER IS SO STUPID THEY'RE DYING BECAUSE THEY'RE SO STUPID, like the second the person decided they wanted to have any empathy at all they deserved a terrible fate. But if he comes back from the dead then that's not the message of the series. You could say that's the message of Dance. But it's a middle act, it's supposed to be depressing. Overall I think Jon's story is going look like a normal monomyth by the end. He does the right thing, suffers, perseveres, and succeeds.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:14
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Aurain posted:Nuh huh, you're dumb. Who would you like as your king though? Renly and Robert were both loved by the people around them, including their former enemies. Stannis was little liked outside his immediate circle of friends. Can a king really be a king if he has only justice and duty behind and not the support of his people?
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Dec 15, 2013 00:28
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Aurain posted:and other cool bits are why Stannis is the best. "Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights." I love Stannis and Davos.
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Dec 15, 2013 00:39
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Can Bran control his bowels?
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Dec 15, 2013 00:44
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OhYeah posted:Who would you like as your king though? Renly and Robert were both loved by the people around them, including their former enemies. Stannis was little liked outside his immediate circle of friends. Can a king really be a king if he has only justice and duty behind and not the support of his people? The best king would be if the radical peasant rebellion symbolized through the religious radicalism of the sparrows and High Septon would succeed and establish a Republic of the Seven, washing the aristocracy away
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Dec 15, 2013 00:49
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Oh so you guys are only interested in the bathroom habits of pubescent girls and can't be bothered to speculate about Bran's bowels with me? Wtf, bad thread. More like "the ok thread i guess"
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Dec 15, 2013 01:54
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Now I'm wondering how they trained Hodor to recognize and change Bran's trousers. Dude must stink like gently caress even by medieval standards.
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Dec 15, 2013 02:12
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Wasn't Hodor carrying Bran on his shoulders for most of the time? Maybe he just learned to recognize the sensation of poop trickling down the back of his shirt?
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Dec 15, 2013 02:34
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Sexgun Rasputin posted:Oh so you guys are only interested in the bathroom habits of pubescent girls and can't be bothered to speculate about Bran's bowels with me? Wtf, bad thread. Bran's belly was distended and taut, like boiled leather molded around an iron kettle. His bowels hadn't moved for days and although he could feel no pain below the waist he could hear his blood rushing through his ears the way it used to during a long climb through the parapets of Winterfell and his breath was short and wheezy. That morning, they ate another meal of Hodor's burnt squirrel and what Meera swore were herbs, although Bran thought they tasted more like dirty straw. And after, Bran in his basket, swinging with Hodor's gait fell into a fitful sleep. It was like the wolf dreams but different somehow, darker. He dreamt something like the inky black hold of a ghost ship, perhaps one built by his own namesake, but uncrewed. The timbers creaked and groaned as though the ship were on high seas, and sure enough he felt queasy. Then it was though he had become that vast dark space, become the ship, he could feel all the interconnected parts, from the mast to the keel. Now his fingers were the spectral sailors, pulling at ropes pushing windlasses with the captain nowhere to be found. With no one to give command they labored at cross purposes, this one undoing what another had done, one furling and unfurling the sails, another mindlessly turning the rudder back and forth. Then a voice came like a whisper from above. Was it his own voice? It was so quiet and the wind seemed to push it away, but here it came back deeper and stronger. He could barely make out the words. "...rub.. eh.. oop ...eck." The sailors stopped their pointless labors for once and cocked their ears. "...iots.. the... deck!" The sails went slack for a moment as the wind died and the voice, it was his he was sure of it now, could be heard. "Scrub the poop deck, you whoresons!" Suddenly, the sailors moved with purpose. In unison they began cleaning the ship from top to bottom. Bilge pumps were set in motion. Brushes and pails were handed out and the scaly rime of ages began to be stripped from the hull. "No grog 'til we've beaten the clog!" the strangely distant captain shouted. The men quickly turned the rhyme into a lusty shanty and doubled their efforts. Just as Bran felt the ship was being put at rights, out of the fog came another voice. "Hodor!" it said angrily. And just like that, Bran was back in his basket. He looked down to see his hands covered in dark, rich, creamy brown poo poo. "HOOOODOOOOR!!!!" bellowed Hodor, trying to swivel his neck like a goose to see the foul smelling mess Bran's night soil had left down his back and breeches. "Hodor, Hodor." he grumbled with an uncharacteristic look on his face. Just then, Jojen returned from foraging. Oblivious to what had happened he related how he'd found an overturned cart, nearly empty but for a couple of handfuls of old withered grapes. "They may not look that appetizing, but I found two scoops of them. They'll make a decent breakfast I think." Hodor bowed his head, eyes closed as Jojen went on. "I don't know if you ate these in Winterfell but they call them..." his voice slowed as his eyes took in the scene "raisins, Bran."
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Dec 15, 2013 03:07
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syscall girl posted:Bran's belly was distended and taut, like boiled leather molded around an iron kettle. His bowels hadn't moved for days and although he could feel no pain below the waist he could hear his blood rushing through his ears the way it used to during a long climb through the parapets of Winterfell and his breath was short and wheezy. That morning, they ate another meal of Hodor's burnt squirrel and what Meera swore were herbs, although Bran thought they tasted more like dirty straw. And after, Bran in his basket, swinging with Hodor's gait fell into a fitful sleep. It was like the wolf dreams but different somehow, darker. Words cannot express my joy. Thank you.
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Dec 15, 2013 03:18
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My cock is so loving hard right now.
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Dec 15, 2013 03:53
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syscall girl posted:MAGNIFICENCE This here is art.
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Dec 15, 2013 03:56
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:My cock is so loving hard right now. I'm glad I could spread a little shame.
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Dec 15, 2013 05:11
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syscall girl posted:"raisins, Bran." Fantastic
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Dec 15, 2013 06:24
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OhYeah posted:Who would you like as your king though? Renly and Robert were both loved by the people around them, including their former enemies. Stannis was little liked outside his immediate circle of friends. Can a king really be a king if he has only justice and duty behind and not the support of his people? That's the entire point of the quote I posted though. He has realised that he's only ever going to be king if he gets the support of his people and he's putting everything on the line to get that. syscall girl, please apply to finish the series when GRRM dies tomorrow, tia.
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Dec 15, 2013 17:52
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Rosscifer posted:But if he comes back from the dead then that's not the message of the series. You could say that's the message of Dance. But it's a middle act, it's supposed to be depressing. Overall I think Jon's story is going look like a normal monomyth by the end. He does the right thing, suffers, perseveres, and succeeds. Possible. We'll never know until the next book comes-here's where one inserts the usual joke-but Martin did it before with the Red Wedding, where he had to make it so terrible and ugly and utterly driving home how Robb's mistakes due to being young and how he was raised and how he was thrown into this when he wasn't yet sixteen and how he was the most traditionally heroic needed to be punished so terribly that Martin damaged his own narrative to drive it home. He could have dialed back what happened there considerably and still put forth the same message and accomplished the same goal.
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Dec 16, 2013 00:17
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Cornwind Evil posted:Possible. We'll never know until the next book comes-here's where one inserts the usual joke-but Martin did it before with the Red Wedding, where he had to make it so terrible and ugly and utterly driving home how Robb's mistakes due to being young and how he was raised and how he was thrown into this when he wasn't yet sixteen and how he was the most traditionally heroic needed to be punished so terribly that Martin damaged his own narrative to drive it home. He could have dialed back what happened there considerably and still put forth the same message and accomplished the same goal. I think the point of the books is that people never actually get what they deserve.
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Dec 16, 2013 00:20
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Cornwind Evil posted:Possible. We'll never know until the next book comes-here's where one inserts the usual joke-but Martin did it before with the Red Wedding, where he had to make it so terrible and ugly and utterly driving home how Robb's mistakes due to being young and how he was raised and how he was thrown into this when he wasn't yet sixteen and how he was the most traditionally heroic needed to be punished so terribly that Martin damaged his own narrative to drive it home. He could have dialed back what happened there considerably and still put forth the same message and accomplished the same goal. I'm not so sure. By the time the Red Wedding rolls around you should understand the North's hopes for winning the rest of the war are completely smashed. You (the reader) can hold on to whatever semblance of hope you want, but it actually takes something like the Red Wedding to wake you out of that dream, they're vastly outnumbered, they're between a rock (the Ironborn) and a hard place (the South), it's really only your belief in the ability of Good to overcome Evil that the reader believes they have a shot. Tywin's actually right in that this solution prevents further bloodshed, in the long (medium? Who knows, perhaps the new Stannis-Bolton war will lead to much more bloodshed) term. Killing Jon is just stupid though. At this point the reader knows he has plot armor, and this doesn't prove a thing. Jon is going to be resurrected somehow, and GRRM is merely dulling his own knife when he continuously "kills" characters only to bring them back. I suppose its supposed to be a lesson to Jon but its still silly.
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Dec 16, 2013 03:06
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Jon absolutely deserves to die and should.
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Dec 16, 2013 03:26
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