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I said it before, but it would be foolish for them to not include the Netflix show guys in AoS, even if it is just a one off thing were Skye at the end goes "Wow Matt Murdoch, thanks for your help, can't wait to see your adventures on Netflix in 2 months!"
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Dec 20, 2013 07:12
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jivjov posted:Random observation: this show is called "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D."; by that alone, it kind of establishes that supers aren't going to be the primary focus. twistedmentat posted:I said it before, but it would be foolish for them to not include the Netflix show guys in AoS, even if it is just a one off thing were Skye at the end goes "Wow Matt Murdoch, thanks for your help, can't wait to see your adventures on Netflix in 2 months!"
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Dec 20, 2013 07:33
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Asimo posted:Yes, but by now everyone is perfectly well aware that Which thematic conceits and budgetary limitations are those? The ones preventing them from making shows about Daredevil, Iron Fist, and Luke Cage? Because I'm pretty sure those guys just had shows announced like a third of the way through the first season of AoS which we have just mentioned again in the last few posts. That whole argument no longer holds water. That's not a rational stance to have anymore. Disney is making a superhero based series with actual characters in it, for Netflix. So the people whining that AoS should have superheroes/villains in it have kind of been validated (though obviously The Avengers are still not going to be part of the show.)
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Dec 20, 2013 08:09
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The show is called Agents of SHIELD. It isn't about supers, street level or otherwise. It's about the Agents that work for SHIELD.
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Dec 20, 2013 08:15
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Seriously, it's in the title.
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Dec 20, 2013 08:20
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Do you know what SHIELD is? Do you think they have a flying aircraft carrier specifically to stop people from doing super steroids? Or should I have been pleasantly surprised that this show wasn't actually about an agency office where I can see people take phone calls and work at their desks?
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Dec 20, 2013 08:38
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ToastyPotato posted:Do you know what SHIELD is? Do you think they have a flying aircraft carrier specifically to stop people from doing super steroids? Or should I have been pleasantly surprised that this show wasn't actually about an agency office where I can see people take phone calls and work at their desks? The agents themselves aren't supers. And the show has shown them taking on super powered threats several times now. Gravitron, the anger-stick dudes, the Centipede powered thugs.
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Dec 20, 2013 08:42
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jivjov posted:The agents themselves aren't supers. And the show has shown them taking on super powered threats several times now. Gravitron, the anger-stick dudes, the Centipede powered thugs. Yes. And people are complaining that the choices being made so far have been bland/boring. I am not sure where the disconnect is, so I am going to try to type this through: -SHIELD deals with super powered/science threats. -AOS is a show about SHIELD. -Marvel has the rights to many super powered/science characters. -AOS has not really used any of them outside of Graviton so far. This displeases a lot of people. -The counter argument is made that we shouldn't expect more from a show with no budget. -Marvel then announces 4 new series on Netflix featuring actual superheroes and therefore, most likely, some actual super villains, less than ten episodes into the first season of AOS. -Everyone defending the show carefully ignores the last point for some reason. So what is the reason AOS couldn't have had more interesting stories involving actual, meaningful Marvel properties again? Because Marvel is dumping a bunch of stuff onto Netflix, so they have both the money and ability to have used a bunch of that stuff on AOS, but simply chose not to. Here is some bonus info that makes this even dumber: Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist have all been affiliated with either The Avengers or SHIELD at some point in the comics.
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Dec 20, 2013 08:54
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We're halfway through the first season. We've seen plenty of super powered threats so far. I can retype my list if you'd like. This show is about the Agents; the Netflix series will be about the superheroes. I'm not sure where the disconnect is.
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Dec 20, 2013 08:59
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But you don't understand, the show's just not living up to its potential unless it shows us the exciting adventures of That Guy with the Funny Costume or the nefarious deeds of that Evil Dude with the Huge Head and Tiny Limbs! 
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Dec 20, 2013 09:06
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I'll try it again. People are complaining that AOS is bland and that they wish it was more tied into the MCU and Marvel in general. This is a thing that is happening not just in this thread, but on many places that are talking about this show. With the announcement of 4 new shows that will tie much more into Marvel properties than AOS has so far, the one valid excuse for AOS not being able to do this has gone out of the window. The show "being about Agents" doesn't mean anything. I don't know what you think that means. This isn't a show about the day to day grind of SHIELD agents. Its a show about a SHIELD team dealing with super threats. SHIELD deals with certain types of threats and has had many famous characters join its ranks. A show about a bunch of no name agents taking on a bunch of no name threats is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, especially when you market the show as belonging to the same world as The Avengers. TL:DR version: People are mad that AOS doesn't draw more from the source materials and is opting for bland story telling with generic, no name characters and they have recently been validated in their disappointment when Marvel, the company that owns and produces the comics and show, announced that the very thing people were complaining about was more likely to be rectified on a set of 4 completely different shows on Netflix rather than on AOS itself.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:10
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I'm perfectly satisfied seeing a team of non-powered agents trying to deal with threats on varying scales. Also, how much more "tied in to the MCU" do you want? One of the lead characters has been in 4 of the MCU movies, reference has been made to pretty much all of them, the team fought people with Asgardian tech, and dealt with an alien infection off a Chitauri helmet. When I say "this show is about agents working for SHIELD", that's EXACTLY what I mean. The various Netflix series are going to center around various super powered characters while AoS deals with a team of non-powered people dealing with the fallout from various powered threats. If you (or anyone else on the internet) doesn't like the show, that's fine, you don't have to like everything on television. But we're getting exactly what we were promised, and it's been pretty satisfying so far.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:16
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Asimo posted:But you don't understand, the show's just not living up to its potential unless it shows us the exciting adventures of That Guy with the Funny Costume or the nefarious deeds of that Evil Dude with the Huge Head and Tiny Limbs! The show's not living up to its potential, period. You want to know why people keep clamoring for SHIELD to show more Marvel universe stuff and superheroes and guys in beekeeper outfits? Because it isn't delivering anything else, and if you can't cough up good writing, good action, or compelling stories, then all you've got left is novelty and spectacle.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:17
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The problem though is that people in this thread (and elsewhere) are whining about it not being tied more into the Marvel comic universe. This is a pretty important distinction, since as much as some people don't want to admit the film universe is run in a very different manner by different people under a different set of rules. There's a lot of characters that are off limits (almost everything Spiderman and X-men-related for example, two of the comics' biggest IP), so that limits a lot of potential options. The movie universe itself, despite being big-budget SFX extravaganzas, are actually a lot more lower-key and smaller scale than the comics universe. See: the vast majority of people aren't comics nerds, and don't know about or give a gently caress about the tedious bullshit continuity or characters, so the movies have to struggle with explaining origins, testing the limits of plausible deniability, and do on. There's a drat good reason why almost everything seen on-screen has had an explicitly pseudo-scientific basis. To Marvel's credit they've been slowly expanding the breadth of the material as the audience gets more used to the continuity, but they've taken some major risks in the process of doing so (Thor being a prime example.) Then we get to the TV universe where rights issues are even more muddled. I imagine any even vaguely recognizable Marvel property is currently being bandied about as a potential movie and that limits a lot of what the show can do. Then there's the fact that the show is operating on a depressingly small budget for its concept (there's a good reason most of the actual "super stuff" on screen has been things like super strength, telekinesis, and gravity control... stuff you can get a lot of mileage from with choreography and simple practical effects rather than CGI), and the fact the entire concept itself revolves around the "normal people" of the setting. I mean the show certainly has a lot of issues. The writing could be a hell of a lot better, the pacing needs loads of work, all that sort of obvious stuff that's been gone over in the thread. But god drat there's a lot of nerds who expect it to be this magic show with an infinite budget and no limits about something that's not even the core focus of the show and no poo poo you're not finding it living up to that potential.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:28
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Kai Tave posted:The show's not living up to its potential, period. You want to know why people keep clamoring for SHIELD to show more Marvel universe stuff and superheroes and guys in beekeeper outfits? Because it isn't delivering anything else, and if you can't cough up good writing, good action, or compelling stories, then all you've got left is novelty and spectacle. This. If the show was better at what it's setting out to do, only the spergiest viewers would be whining about the show lacking the Wrecking Crew or Dr. Strange or whatever. Instead, we'd be wondering when Melinda May is going to show up in the comics, or we'd clamor to see Mike Peterson fight Spider-Man.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:40
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jivjov posted:I'm perfectly satisfied seeing a team of non-powered agents trying to deal with threats on varying scales. Also, how much more "tied in to the MCU" do you want? One of the lead characters has been in 4 of the MCU movies, reference has been made to pretty much all of them, the team fought people with Asgardian tech, and dealt with an alien infection off a Chitauri helmet. Yeah I guess all those articles being written about the show disappointing fans and the fact that the show runners had to directly address people's fears for the second half of the season is indicative of a show that is absolutely delivering. I guess all when Huffington Post makes a headline about your Thor tie in episode having nothing to do with Thor, you are really delivering exactly what you promised. The fact remains that the trailer for the show purposefully evoked imagery of the Avengers, and made it seem like this show was going to be about the fallout of the movies, when in reality the show has had almost nothing to do with the films or comics, even when it is directly dealing with stuff from the films, like Extremis. That is why people are complaining. It also doesn't help that the writing has generally been a bit weak, but that is something that can easily be improved without having to change much. Yes the show is only 10 episodes in. That isn't the point. The point is that the show isn't impressing very many people, and there doesn't seem to be any valid reason for why it could not have impressed people. Kai Tave posted:The show's not living up to its potential, period. You want to know why people keep clamoring for SHIELD to show more Marvel universe stuff and superheroes and guys in beekeeper outfits? Because it isn't delivering anything else, and if you can't cough up good writing, good action, or compelling stories, then all you've got left is novelty and spectacle. Basically this. Even without better writing, if they had thrown people a few bones (what if Peterson was replaced with Luke Cage instead, giving him an updated origin, for example) I think the show would probably be a bit more popular. It is a bit more complicated than just throwing comic characters on TV, but the gist of it is that they are actively avoiding referencing things that are already similar to the things they are doing, but the things they are doing seem to be boring a whole hell of a lot of people and turning them off to the show. Ultimately, we'll see if AOS can survive the hiatus, and then, the rest of the season, but so far, the negative atmosphere it seems to be gaining with a large part of its targeted audience and the lack of critical acclaim aren't looking too good. Still plenty of time for things to improve though. It's fine if you enjoy the show, but a lot of people are disappointed in it and are holding out for the show to change in its second half of season 1. Most of the people who hate the show are not posting in this thread anymore. I personally know a few people who have outright quit watching because they said it was boring. But those of us here are are expressing negative feelings are hoping for the show to grow into something more than it is right now because we don't want it to be cancelled. Comic book shows don't have the best track record, and I think a lot of us are hoping Marvel Studios can work their magic on TV as they did with their movies.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:42
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Asimo posted:The problem though is that people in this thread (and elsewhere) are whining about it not being tied more into the Marvel comic universe. This is a pretty important distinction, since as much as some people don't want to admit the film universe is run in a very different manner by different people under a different set of rules. There's a lot of characters that are off limits (almost everything Spiderman and X-men-related for example, two of the comics' biggest IP), so that limits a lot of potential options. The movie universe itself, despite being big-budget SFX extravaganzas, are actually a lot more lower-key and smaller scale than the comics universe. See: the vast majority of people aren't comics nerds, and don't know about or give a gently caress about the tedious bullshit continuity or characters, so the movies have to struggle with explaining origins, testing the limits of plausible deniability, and do on. There's a drat good reason why almost everything seen on-screen has had an explicitly pseudo-scientific basis. To Marvel's credit they've been slowly expanding the breadth of the material as the audience gets more used to the continuity, but they've taken some major risks in the process of doing so (Thor being a prime example.) Hey, that's exactly what I've been trying to say, but you said it way better. Thanks!
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Dec 20, 2013 09:42
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Asimo posted:The problem though is that people in this thread (and elsewhere) are whining about it not being tied more into the Marvel comic universe. This is a pretty important distinction, since as much as some people don't want to admit the film universe is run in a very different manner by different people under a different set of rules. There's a lot of characters that are off limits (almost everything Spiderman and X-men-related for example, two of the comics' biggest IP), so that limits a lot of potential options. The movie universe itself, despite being big-budget SFX extravaganzas, are actually a lot more lower-key and smaller scale than the comics universe. See: the vast majority of people aren't comics nerds, and don't know about or give a gently caress about the tedious bullshit continuity or characters, so the movies have to struggle with explaining origins, testing the limits of plausible deniability, and do on. There's a drat good reason why almost everything seen on-screen has had an explicitly pseudo-scientific basis. To Marvel's credit they've been slowly expanding the breadth of the material as the audience gets more used to the continuity, but they've taken some major risks in the process of doing so (Thor being a prime example.) jivjov posted:Hey, that's exactly what I've been trying to say, but you said it way better. Thanks! But Marvel just greenlit 4 shows with superheroes from the comics in them, so that means they could have lived up to the very expectations some people were having of AOS but chose not to. That is why people are complaining.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:45
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ToastyPotato posted:But Marvel just greenlit 4 shows with superheroes from the comics in them, so that means they could have lived up to the very expectations some people were having of AOS but chose not to. That is why people are complaining. If people were expecting a superhero focused show out of a show titled "Agents of SHIELD", then that's their problem. I'll say it again, this show is focusing on the agents. The everymen. The Coulsons and Hills and Furys of the Marvel universe. The Netflix stuff is going to focus on the super powered heroes. If people went in with erroneous expectations, that's not the fault of the show.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:48
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Most notable agents of SHIELD are considered superheroes, despite not having powers. Black Widow and Hawkeye don't have powers either, but they are still superheroes. Nick Fury is considered a superhero. The show was billed as being about a special team of agents who deal with special threats that have not yet been classified by SHIELD. It referenced the fallout of The Avengers. When you combine this with the fact that anytime we've seen SHIELD agents working, its been directly with plots concerning some superhero or villain, you can see where the expectations are coming from. Even in the first trailer for the show, when Coulson is looking at the footage of Mike saving the scientist from the explosion, they ask what they are looking at and Coulson answers "A superhero." So yes, a bunch of people thought the show was going to be about SHIELD agents trying to wrangle people with powers, like some weird version of Heroes, but actually good and featuring characters they might recognize. Do you not remember how the internet was a buzz with the speculation that Mike Peterson, at the time unnamed, was actually Luke Cage? Luke Cage, the guy that Marvel ended up greenlighting a show for anyway?
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Dec 20, 2013 09:56
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We've gotten "SHIELD has to wrangle people with powers" episodes. Several of them. Peterson, Gravitron, the people with the Asgardian rage-stick. All people with powers. All "wrangled" by SHIELD.
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Dec 20, 2013 09:58
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I've tried to keep my posts in this thread at least marginally constructive but god gently caress that stupid rage-stick. Like, seriously, in a show that's had plenty to criticize I think that may be the one thing that I irrationally dislike the most. Not only is it something like a dumb D&D magic item ("You must assemble the three pieces of the +5 Staff of Anger...") but what loving space viking Norse alien god-culture is going to give its berserker warriors a staff? An axe, a sword, make it a spear, that's almost like a staff if you're really married to the concept. I don't know why but that one just bugged the poo poo out of me.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:03
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jivjov posted:We've gotten "SHIELD has to wrangle people with powers" episodes. Several of them. Peterson, Gravitron, the people with the Asgardian rage-stick. All people with powers. All "wrangled" by SHIELD. Yup and people have been incredibly disappointed by them. Asgardian rage-stick even made people annoyed enough that sites were publishing articles about how the marketing for the episode lied. Gravitron was alright, because it left the door wide open, even though so far we haven't had so much as a hint of that episode having meant anything more than a freak of the week. Mike Peterson has been incredibly underwhelming, but we will see how that plot resolves itself when the show comes back. So far none of the supers we've seen have been as interesting as the supers on the first season of Heroes. They've all been one and done, except for Peterson who hasn't accomplished a whole lot more than that. So far Heroes was a better Agents of SHIELD than AOS and it wasn't even based on any big franchises.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:05
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Kai Tave posted:I've tried to keep my posts in this thread at least marginally constructive but god gently caress that stupid rage-stick. Like, seriously, in a show that's had plenty to criticize I think that may be the one thing that I irrationally dislike the most. Not only is it something like a dumb D&D magic item ("You must assemble the three pieces of the +5 Staff of Anger...") but what loving space viking Norse alien god-culture is going to give its berserker warriors a staff? An axe, a sword, make it a spear, that's almost like a staff if you're really married to the concept. I don't know why but that one just bugged the poo poo out of me. I was a little put off by the whole "assemble the three pieces" thing, but I thought it was a really nifty idea. Not every fantasy weapon needs to be bladed, and I think clubs and staves are pretty underrepresented in pop culture. ToastyPotato posted:Yup and people have been incredibly disappointed by them. Asgardian rage-stick even made people annoyed enough that sites were publishing articles about how the marketing for the episode lied. Gravitron was alright, because it left the door wide open, even though so far we haven't had so much as a hint of that episode having meant anything more than a freak of the week. Mike Peterson has been incredibly underwhelming, but we will see how that plot resolves itself when the show comes back. So far none of the supers we've seen have been as interesting as the supers on the first season of Heroes. They've all been one and done, except for Peterson who hasn't accomplished a whole lot more than that. And people were perfectly happy with them too. If we're just citing random "people" as sources, then I can do that too.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:06
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If your problem with the show is the writing or the pacing, then there's good reason to complain. It's improving slowly over time, if probably not quick enough. If your problem with the show is because there aren't enough people prancing around in tights then, uh, tough I guess? That's not what the show is and won't be (at least without a drastic change in concept, probably in another season). It's doing exactly what its concept was advertized as: Agents of SHIELD cleaning up super-messes (complete with multiple tangential tie-ins to the movies). If that part of it isn't enough you may as well stop watching it and check back in a year to see if it's more your taste. Especially since... ToastyPotato posted:But Marvel just greenlit 4 shows with superheroes from the comics in them (...)  jivjov posted:And people were perfectly happy with them too. If we're just citing random "people" as sources, then I can do that too.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:09
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Setting aside the argument over "It's Agents of SHIELD, not Superheroes of SHIELD," the thing is that whether you have a show with a cast of mundane, normal agents or whatever, the universe itself is decidedly not something that's supposed to be mundane or normal or blase. This is a show taking place in a setting where the nightly news has stories about a billionaire playboy in a suit of power armor, where radiation turns people into huge green monsters, and where aliens have now invaded not just once but twice, and yet nothing about it feels that exciting or bursting with "oh man" moments. The show doesn't need costumed superheroes all over the place, I've argued as much multiple times in this thread, but it needs something. Generic death-rays and rage sticks, you could watch Warehouse 13 and get that plus Saul Rubinek.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:19
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(Geez, this thread is really making me look like one of Whedon's biggest naysayers when I am really, from heart to groin, Whedon's biggest cheerleader.) Yes, technically Agents of SHIELD has tied into the MCU in several ways, but those ways were extremely technical and contrived to the point of being frustratingly insincere. They slap the words "Extremis" and "Chitauri" and "Asgardian" on things that don't actually resemble those concepts from the films and call it a tie-in? Audiences are way too smart for that kind of insincere tomfoolery. I mean, look, the episode with the Chitauri virus was one of my favorites of this series, but the virus itself had not a thing to do with the actual Chitauri from the actual Avengers film. They could have called it literally any kind of virus from any dang place in the great wide cosmos and it would have served the exact same purpose. Same with the Asgardian staff. Like, it's a staff that makes you angry? What does that have to do with anything we saw in either of the Thor films? They could have called it a Chitauri staff and called the virus an Asgardian virus for all the difference it would have made. And we're supposed to be excited over those kinds of tie-ins? Wow, maybe in an upcoming episode we'll see a Starktech radio set and call it a riveting tie-in to the Iron Man films. (Haha just kidding, no way do we ever see anything from Stark industries.) That's what people mean when they accuse this show of half-assing it. And it's the same when this show does pull in elements from the comics; we get Gravitron, who the show has all but forgotten about (him and his patron), and...Scorch? A character whose official and unofficial Marvel wiki pages are literally empty? Oh yeah and he's dead now so no hope of developing him for MCU canon. Those are the kinds of references we should look forward to on this show? Half of a villain's origin before we lock him in a vault, and guys with empty wiki pages? And yes, I loved the Marvel films and I even really enjoy many of the characters on this show. I was even defending it right up to this mid-season finale. But even I can see that it has seriously dropped the ball on a whole lot of things that it attempted to do, and that there's been little excuse for it.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:20
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BrianWilly posted:That's what people mean when they accuse this show of half-assing it. And it's the same when this show does pull in elements from the comics; we get Gravitron, who the show has all but forgotten about (him and his patron), and...Scorch? A character whose official and unofficial Marvel wiki pages are literally empty? Oh yeah and he's dead now so no hope of developing him for MCU canon. Those are the kinds of references we should look forward to on this show? Half of a villain's origin before we lock him in a vault, and guys with empty wiki pages? You honestly think Scorch is dead? C'mon, that's not even a comic book rule. That's basic TV rules. No corpse, no kill. The comic book version just adds "and if you have a corpse it just means you gotta get creative about it."
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Dec 20, 2013 10:30
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Scorch was pretty boring though, if he comes back I'm not sure that's really a bonus. I'll give the show credit, I wasn't expecting to see such graphic immolation on a show that exudes "family TV hour" from every pixel like this one does.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:33
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Kai Tave posted:Setting aside the argument over "It's Agents of SHIELD, not Superheroes of SHIELD," the thing is that whether you have a show with a cast of mundane, normal agents or whatever, the universe itself is decidedly not something that's supposed to be mundane or normal or blase. This is a show taking place in a setting where the nightly news has stories about a billionaire playboy in a suit of power armor, where radiation turns people into huge green monsters, and where aliens have now invaded not just once but twice, and yet nothing about it feels that exciting or bursting with "oh man" moments. The show doesn't need costumed superheroes all over the place, I've argued as much multiple times in this thread, but it needs something. Generic death-rays and rage sticks, you could watch Warehouse 13 and get that plus Saul Rubinek. Not to mention that the overarching plot this season is about Extremis, whose last appearance in the MCU involved AIM, the people behind its creation, infiltrating the government all the way up to the the White House, committing multiple acts of terrorism, kidnapping and nearly killing the President of the US on TV, blowing up an Avenger's house, nearly killing him multiple times, hijacking the War Machine armor, and requiring literally every single armored suit Stark had (dozens?) just to take them down. But hey, I'm sure this heavily distracted rag tag field team can handle this new strain of Extremis on their own. A team that we literally view as expendable which is why we send a chunk of them on a suicide mission without telling them. And yes, that is to say nothing of the fact that the show has completely glossed over TWO alien invasions in the span of 2 years. The reason why some people want more tie ins is because they want a more developed, meanigful world. The problem with AOS is that it seems completely uninterested in the world that it takes place in. It kind of just goes, yeah yeah, Thor, ANYWAY way, so we found some rage stick thing. Yeah, right alien invasions, destroying major cities, ho hum, HEY this box is weird! What, its made of super secret Nazi space tech from the 40s? Booorring, shoot it into space. So far the weird ghost guy was the most interesting villain they have had on the show. That was a good episode, in my opinion. We got some character development in there, and while we did have a freak of the week, he actually had a story surrounding him with a decent resolution. That was some borderline 90's Outer Limits stuff there.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:40
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Thinking about it some more, I think one of the biggest indications of this show's inorganic approach to the MCU is the fact that it went to the trouble of making up a whole new evil organization before just simply calling it Hydra or AIM, who are threats that SHIELD deals with on a constant basis in the comics and have been firmly established in the movies. But they made up a whole new organization to fight (technically two new organizations, counting that rich guy from episode three) so they wouldn't...what, step on the toes of movies that are already out and finished? It's just an incredibly unsatisfying way to set up this universe. Ordinarily writers might get points for making original creations, but you have to remember that this is a world adapted from an existing property/franchise, here. When they make a new Superman or Iron Man film, would you rather watch them fight their age-old nemeses or random new villains that you just now invented? And if they're gonna be new villains then they'd better be friggin' awesome. And like, let's be real here. Would anyone -- even the most passionate supporters of this show -- truly describe Centipede as "friggin' awesome"? jng2058 posted:You honestly think Scorch is dead? C'mon, that's not even a comic book rule. That's basic TV rules. No corpse, no kill. The comic book version just adds "and if you have a corpse it just means you gotta get creative about it."  Seriously, I think Mike Peterson and the flower girl are the only guest-stars who've even actually appeared in more than one episode at this point. Let's see if this show actually gives a hoot about bringing live characters back before speculating about resurrections.
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Dec 20, 2013 10:56
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ToastyPotato posted:A team that we literally view as expendable which is why we send a chunk of them on a suicide mission without telling them. Except that Mean-Seeming SHIELD Lady actually smiled because she secretly knew all along that it wouldn't be a suicide mission and that Coulson would get his people out because that's what he does so there was no need for an exit strategy on a high risk mission like that and she and SHIELD can be completely clear of any uncomfortable gray area that would have produced, thank goodness! That was lame. Not "Ward can fight off all these guys because he's got an Anger Stick, too, but oh no, the bad guys have a girl on their team, that won't look good if Ward fights her, oh phew, Melinda's here so she can fight the single designated girl opponent and no one else today" lame, but most of that episode was a stinker so it's easier to just write off everything that's not Ward watching a kid (his younger brother?) drown because his older brother's a dick, and Ward and Melinda at least temporarily dodging Clearly Designated Ship Zone. ToastyPotato posted:So far the weird ghost guy was the most interesting villain they have had on the show. That was a good episode, in my opinion. We got some character development in there, and while we did have a freak of the week, he actually had a story surrounding him with a decent resolution. That was some borderline 90's Outer Limits stuff there. More things like Weird Ghost Guy and Creepy Alien Electro Hover Virus episodes going into the second half would be good. If you're going to do a problem of the week kind of thing ("problem," as FZZT didn't really involve a monster), make them problems that have some clever twists, bring out well-done character moments, and give us at least one really nifty creepy/cool image in the episode. I'm down for this being Marvel's low budget X-Files/Outer Limits hybrid show, just so long as the episodes are interesting and the writing isn't as seemingly lazy, timid, or rote as it's been SHIELD's crappier first half outings.
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Dec 20, 2013 11:08
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BrianWilly posted:Thinking about it some more, I think one of the biggest indications of this show's inorganic approach to the MCU is the fact that it went to the trouble of making up a whole new evil organization before just simply calling it Hydra or AIM, who are threats that SHIELD deals with on a constant basis in the comics and have been firmly established in the movies. But they made up a whole new organization to fight (technically two new organizations, counting that rich guy from episode three) so they wouldn't...what, step on the toes of movies that are already out and finished? It's just an incredibly unsatisfying way to set up this universe. Honestly this is why I have a sneaking suspicion that the show is laboring under some bullshit restrictions by ABC/Disney, with too many concepts restricted to the movie lines, for whatever dumb reason. Not that this is an excuse, but it'd explain a lot.
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Dec 20, 2013 11:17
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A Big Dark Yak posted:Except that Mean-Seeming SHIELD Lady actually smiled because she secretly knew all along that it wouldn't be a suicide mission and that Coulson would get his people out because that's what he does so there was no need for an exit strategy on a high risk mission like that and she and SHIELD can be completely clear of any uncomfortable gray area that would have produced, thank goodness! I still, after having watched that episode twice over, can't figure out the angle the writers were going for. Was Victoria Hand happy that Coulson and his team defied official orders to extract Ward and Fitz? If that was her intent all along then why not just say "sorry, we can't spare an extraction team, you'll have to handle that on your own" instead of hiding it from him? Was it a test, to see which way Coulson would jump? If so, did he pass or fail or what? Like, I know I'm not the smartest person in the room but I can usually keep up with a television show...this one has me well and truly stumped though. Asimo posted:Honestly this is why I have a sneaking suspicion that the show is laboring under some bullshit restrictions by ABC/Disney, with too many concepts restricted to the movie lines, for whatever dumb reason. Not that this is an excuse, but it'd explain a lot. If that is the case then even if it explains it you can't really blame people for being unhappy that the show doesn't have stronger MCU ties or isn't doing anything interesting with the toys in the toybox that have already been established. It also might be that this is the root of people wanting to see more different Marvel stuff, because if they can't do anything with the MCU stuff that already exists and they won't do anything with Marvel stuff that hasn't been shown yet then it's not really much of a Marvel anything.
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Dec 20, 2013 11:33
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[quote="Asimo" post="423436747"] If your problem with the show is the writing or the pacing, then there's good reason to complain. It's improving slowly over time, if probably not quick enough. Yup. Writing and pacing are my biggest gripes by far. If we're gonna have a show about SHIELD agents then it might have been nice to have Coulson running a team of senior agents who are actually good at what they do. Instead we have one broken senior, who Coulson had to beg to be on the team, and the rest are a bunch of scrubs fresh out of the academy. Probably this is to appeal to the younger demo that actually watches the show, and because watching them gain skills and come together as a team is an easy arc to write. But it makes it kind of hard to kick rear end right out of the gate the way a team of veterans could have done. You could have had the vets questioning Coulson's motives and abilities after his resurrection and to me that would have made for more interesting drama than watching inexperienced agents fumbling around and questioning themselves all the time. You could have had Coulson's team acting as a check and balance against Fury's more egregious bullshit, and SHIELD as an organization actually being a major part of the show. Instead we have a show with no superheroes compounded by the fact that the people in it just don't feel very heroic even on a human scale. FitzSimmons are reasonably good at their jobs, but half the time it seems like they fix stuff by accident. Ward is completely bland and boring and I don't care that his big brother was mean to him and I'd love to see him gone after the break. Skye started out as this super-cool, independent, l33t hax0r chick living in a van and like 4 episodes in they took away her Internet privs and now she spends her days locked in her cabin crying about her dead parents. May is so traumatized by her past she just broods in the cockpit. Yeah, I get that the show is all about Coulson forging this island of misfit toys into a crack team, but so far it's just depressing to watch.  I want to look forward to watching this show, really, I do. We can't have superheroes in the action directly? Fine, give us lots more scenes like the one where they're cleaning up Thor's aftermath. Iron Man? Oh man, he was here like five minutes ago, you *just* missed him. Give us Stark Industries logos in the background, Captain America posters on the walls, little kids dressing up like The Hulk. We should always have the sense that we are living in the Marvel Universe. This show should be so steeped in Marvel lore that we feel compelled to run out and buy the comic books just the get the back story on stuff. Use your synergistic product to um, actually promote synergy.
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Dec 20, 2013 11:53
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This is going to be such a fun hiatus.
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Dec 20, 2013 13:47
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These discussions are infinitely more entertaining than the show itself.
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Dec 20, 2013 14:00
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:These discussions are infinitely more entertaining than the show itself. The most damning indictment yet.
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Dec 20, 2013 14:07
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BrianWilly posted:Thinking about it some more, I think one of the biggest indications of this show's inorganic approach to the MCU is the fact that it went to the trouble of making up a whole new evil organization before just simply calling it Hydra or AIM, who are threats that SHIELD deals with on a constant basis in the comics and have been firmly established in the movies. But they made up a whole new organization to fight (technically two new organizations, counting that rich guy from episode three) so they wouldn't...what, step on the toes of movies that are already out and finished? It's just an incredibly unsatisfying way to set up this universe. I know Hydra and AIM are frequent SHIELD antagonists in the comics, but in the movies they've both been pretty thoroughly dealt with. We have no indication that Hydra survived the Red Skull's death/the destruction of their HQ 70 years ago, and the movie version was never shown to be as far-reaching as its comic counterpart. AIM, in the MCU, was pretty much all Killian, and there's little reason to believe it has survived his death either. Certainly without a raging psychopath at the helm it is less likely to be in the supervillainy business. Centipede doesn't have the familiar names (or any official name, really), but it is a pretty appropriate antagonist. This show is about regular people dealing with the fallout of superheroics, and in this case Centipede is what is left of the evil organization after the superhero beats the supervillain. What became of Hydra or AIM after their movies? Well, some of their employees still wanted to rule the world. They're harder to pin down, not driven by the ego of Red Skull or the vengeance crusade of Killian, but still dangerous. Maybe it's just me, but that works on a thematic level.
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Dec 20, 2013 14:37
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Kai Tave posted:Setting aside the argument over "It's Agents of SHIELD, not Superheroes of SHIELD," the thing is that whether you have a show with a cast of mundane, normal agents or whatever, the universe itself is decidedly not something that's supposed to be mundane or normal or blase. This is a show taking place in a setting where the nightly news has stories about a billionaire playboy in a suit of power armor, where radiation turns people into huge green monsters, and where aliens have now invaded not just once but twice, and yet nothing about it feels that exciting or bursting with "oh man" moments. The show doesn't need costumed superheroes all over the place, I've argued as much multiple times in this thread, but it needs something. Generic death-rays and rage sticks, you could watch Warehouse 13 and get that plus Saul Rubinek. Exactly. I'm not surprised that my post above is getting a bit straw-manned, so let me spell it out: Barry Convex posted:Whatever the broader problems with writing and direction - and they're significant - I think it's fair to say that the immense storytelling potential inherent in the premise has been absolutely crippled by an inability to take more than tepid half-steps outside the boundaries of the established MCU film canon (i.e. limited use of superpowered characters in general, no alien races other than the Chitauri, no time travel, no magic, no alternate dimensions, no advanced ancient civilizations, no quasi-supernatural godlike beings other than the Asgardians and those associated, etc). The things I listed as being (presumably) off-limits for this show due to the strict boundaries of current MCU film canon are all broad, general categories of story ideas. Not a single one requires the use of any specific character or element originating in the comics. Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Dec 20, 2013 |
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Dec 20, 2013 15:48
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