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The B_36 posted:Much like an American going to Oxford is likely to be a very smart student, usually smarter than the Englishmen he'll share a class with in Enland.
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Jan 9, 2014 04:05
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Chris de Sperg posted:Tangential but just FYI this is a very, very, very poor way to make this point, because it's not remotely true and in fact it's generally the exact opposite. American students at Oxford are on average shittier students than British ones, because the academic standards applied to visting students, MBAs, etc. are nowhere near as rigorous, and they're certainly not being held to a higher admissions standard than domestic students given if they're not getting in through one of those loopholes they're having to go through the same ultra-selective admissions process as everyone else. I'll take your word for it. I just figured that a student from one country wouldn't bother to go to a foreign school unless that school offered a higher quality of education for their chosen field than a more local school, and if that foreign school has a higher quality program, they're more likely to only accept a higher quality of student into their program. Or are you just talking about specifically American foreign students going to specifically British schools like Oxford? Either way, you're right, doesn't have much to do with the poor quality of education among American scholarship athletes. I'm really liking the "Sports Education Program" idea. It would probably be more useful than a Liberal Arts degree.
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Jan 9, 2014 04:42
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The B_36 posted:I'll take your word for it. I just figured that a student from one country wouldn't bother to go to a foreign school unless that school offered a higher quality of education for their chosen field than a more local school, and if that foreign school has a higher quality program, they're more likely to only accept a higher quality of student into their program. I guess it makes more sense in the American context where academics aren't necessarily the be-all and end-all for college admissions, and you have a far broader range of abilities represented at a given college; in Britain (and I'd presume most other countries), it's a far tighter band of academic ability at any given institution, particularly for undergraduate stuff. I'm surprised 'sports education'-type programmes aren't already a done thing for scholarship athletes in the US; those universities in the UK who do possess robust college sport setups almost all have entire departments dedicated to it.
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Jan 9, 2014 04:56
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There are typically Sports Medicine and Kinesiology degrees that are sports focused but that is as close as it currently gets from what I have seen.
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Jan 9, 2014 05:02
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Yeah okay coaches are going to make sure their star players spend lots of time studying The History of Football and Kinesiology.
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Jan 9, 2014 06:04
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Tender Bender posted:Yeah okay coaches are going to make sure their star players spend lots of time studying The History of Football and Kinesiology. I think most of the suggestions have been along the lines of, "Wouldn't it be nice if," or, "Maybe they could at least..." I don't think anyone here is proposing realistic reform.
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Jan 9, 2014 08:05
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Tender Bender posted:Yeah okay coaches are going to make sure their star players spend lots of time studying The History of Football and Kinesiology. Who was the basketball coach that had a class on basketball with exam questions like "how many points is a 3-pointer worth?"
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Jan 9, 2014 09:10
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ElwoodCuse posted:Who was the basketball coach that had a class on basketball with exam questions like "how many points is a 3-pointer worth?" Jim Harrick at Georgia
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Jan 9, 2014 10:13
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Tender Bender posted:Yeah okay coaches are going to make sure their star players spend lots of time studying The History of Football and Kinesiology. Yeah, of course not, but I think at this point it would make sense to just drop the pretense of "educating" their athletes beyond sports. Maybe a bad analogy, but to get a Biology degree from a college, you aren't expected to know about marketing as well. For those athletes who are only there because they can run fast, maybe they should have the option to major in something more tailored to what they're actually in school for. I realized typing that out that it sounds a lot like because these guys aren't bright but are good athletes, we should just let them take bird courses so they don't have to worry about learning anything and can just play football. But, isn't that what the school's are doing anyway?
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Jan 9, 2014 10:58
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Or we could maybe not totally give up on them and actually try to let them take advantage of the free education that's being offered to supposedly compensates them for the all the money they're making the school (and maybe decrease the practice demands on them so they can actually take advantage of it) instead of just going "eh, that boy's fast, he doesn't need none of that book learning". Most of them are not going to be professional athletes.
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Jan 9, 2014 16:17
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Mary Willingham has received death threats since Ganim's article was published. MourningView posted:Or we could maybe not totally give up on them and actually try to let them take advantage of the free education that's being offered to supposedly compensates them for the all the money they're making the school (and maybe decrease the practice demands on them so they can actually take advantage of it) instead of just going "eh, that boy's fast, he doesn't need none of that book learning". Most of them are not going to be professional athletes. Bingo.
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Jan 9, 2014 16:21
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The B_36 posted:poo poo, that's actually not a terrible idea. They could take courses that directly relate to being an athlete; physical training, kinesiology, some basic bio mechanics stuff, maybe sports stats. For the vast majority of college athletes who don't go pro, these are employable skills to have, and there's a much better chance their coaches will encourage them to pay attention in class because it would directly help their performance on the field.
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Jan 9, 2014 16:57
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MourningView posted:Or we could maybe not totally give up on them and actually try to let them take advantage of the free education that's being offered to supposedly compensates them for the all the money they're making the school (and maybe decrease the practice demands on them so they can actually take advantage of it) instead of just going "eh, that boy's fast, he doesn't need none of that book learning". Most of them are not going to be professional athletes. Pretty much this. Statistically if you're a Student Athlete at any given school you're not going to make the pros. So the "Free Education" is very much a good thing, and should be taken advantage of. Now, I would argue that it would be best for the NBDL to be expanded to be a "AAA"-level of the NBA for those that don't need to go school, but need money short-term. Same with the NFL.
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Jan 9, 2014 19:41
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My concept would basically still have all the same coursework as any other B.A. The only difference is that you'd have football or whatever count for more than the 1.5 credit hours of physical education that it does now. I don't know what classes they'd be taking for "football" to get it up there to make it have enough credits. Maybe classes that help with learning how to coach or even breaking down position skills into a class. Still gotta have your nine credits of arts or whatever too. Obvviously players wouldn't be required to major in football and I think that the hard part would be keeping coaches from forcing players into it when they really do want something else out of their education.
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Jan 9, 2014 20:50
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I wish Ken Tremendous and the crew at FJM would come back to have their say on this Le Betard thing. It seems like we're about to be hit with a gold mine of terrible articles.
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Jan 9, 2014 21:11
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A writer for the Star Ledger is reporting that noted child rapist and Baseball Hall of Fame honoree Bill Conlin has died.
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Jan 9, 2014 22:09
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Sash! posted:My concept would basically still have all the same coursework as any other B.A. The only difference is that you'd have football or whatever count for more than the 1.5 credit hours of physical education that it does now. I don't know what classes they'd be taking for "football" to get it up there to make it have enough credits. Maybe classes that help with learning how to coach or even breaking down position skills into a class. It's definitely a fine idea, it just doesn't address the fact that the institution from the top down doesn't care about the players' futures and often directly impedes them from engaging in worthwhile pursuits. "The hard part" is convincing coaches and university officials that players are human beings and not money generating sacks of meat. When you're talking about players who can't read and literally never set foot in a classroom it doesn't matter if the class they're phantom attending is Bio 101 or Introduction to Tackling. I mean it is a decent idea though it just sucks that the whole situation is so terrible
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Jan 9, 2014 22:20
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College sports is a sham top to bottom, basically.
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Jan 9, 2014 23:04
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jeffersonlives posted:A writer for the Star Ledger is reporting that noted child rapist and Baseball Hall of Fame honoree Bill Conlin has died. This is probably the wrong attitude to have but my only thought here is 'good.'
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Jan 10, 2014 03:21
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The BBWAA sure showed Le Batard! http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24403685/bbwaa-strips-dan-le-batard-of-hall-of-fame-vote To be fair, the lifetime ban was appropriate regardless of the merit of the protest. But the yanking his credential for a year is hilarious.
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Jan 10, 2014 05:21
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Tender Bender posted:It's definitely a fine idea, it just doesn't address the fact that the institution from the top down doesn't care about the players' futures and often directly impedes them from engaging in worthwhile pursuits. "The hard part" is convincing coaches and university officials that players are human beings and not money generating sacks of meat. When you're talking about players who can't read and literally never set foot in a classroom it doesn't matter if the class they're phantom attending is Bio 101 or Introduction to Tackling. I wouldn't say all the way down. I am a faculty member, and most faculty, at least initially, try hard to provide an education to athletes. But ultimately we are powerless in this whole scenario, because outside of the players themselves all the stakeholders are evaluated on non-academic stuff, and if we were to take a stand we'd only hurt the students. I've had first hand experience with ACC and SEC schools. During the spring semester once I was contacted by the athletics people to excuse a football player who would be 15 minutes late for class every day because he had mandatory team meetings (this was the spring semester, by the way). I complained about it but ultimately all I would have been able to do was get the student to withdraw if I didn't accept it. At my current school, professors get pin numbers in order to electronically sign off on the classes their advisees are taking. These codes are now also being directly sent to the coaches, who end up signing up the students for whatever classes they please, even though our name is on the form. And after much complaining all we could get was that there is now a form releasing us from liability if the student ends up not meeting all the requirements for graduation.
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Jan 10, 2014 05:25
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Also, let's be realistic: they give way more of a poo poo about the athletes (even if they're hosing them) than they ever gave about any of us. It's not like they're trying to cover up my poo poo grades or that I loved sleeping way more than going to class.
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Jan 10, 2014 05:55
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Sash! posted:Also, let's be realistic: they give way more of a poo poo about the athletes (even if they're hosing them) than they ever gave about any of us. It's not like they're trying to cover up my poo poo grades or that I loved sleeping way more than going to class. This is only sort of true. Your value to the school was through tuition and potentially ending up wealthy enough to provide donations. The first means they don't want you to drop out, the second means they prefer that you get the education you need to be successful in life. An athlete, on the other hand, provides value only through their labor, and anything that creates a distraction from being a slave to the college is a monetary loss. Anyway,
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Jan 10, 2014 06:13
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Peanut President posted:College sports is a sham top to bottom, basically. And just wait until you dig deeper into high school sports!
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Jan 10, 2014 06:13
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Mornacale posted:Anyway, I'm fine with situations like college baseball where there is an explicit alternative professional track.
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Jan 10, 2014 06:18
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LARGE THE HEAD posted:And just wait until you dig deeper into high school sports! You could do an entire 30 for 30 on high school football around Texas and Oklahoma. "Pony Excess" touched on it somewhat.
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Jan 10, 2014 14:24
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So, Mary Willingham? The woman cited in that Sara Ganim story about NCAA athletes who's been receiving death threats since her work was reported on? Her own university is throwing her under the bus. CNN counters by stating that they have e-mail exchanges university officials have been well-aware of her research for a year. For a cool longer story, check out this Guardian piece on the time one of the original NASL teams decided to spend their entire seven-month offseason playing around the world, with them winding up playing in 26 countries including Cyprus, Pakistan, Burma, and Vietnam during wartime. Crazy Ted fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jan 10, 2014 |
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Jan 10, 2014 15:42
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Mornacale posted:Anyway, Why? I'm sure there is a plausible argument to be made. However, I am a music teacher. I often find significant similarities between my chorus class and an athletic team in contrast with other academic classes. Any good music educator will defend the academic legitimacy and importance of the arts and our ensembles to the death. I imagine similar logic applies to athletics.
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Jan 10, 2014 17:49
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I have no issue with student-athletes at a college. However, there needs to be a balance - student-athletes need the time to do well in classes (or actually be able to complete a college-level class). Right now it's borderline hysterical how little "student" applies to student-athlete.
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Jan 10, 2014 18:03
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Students who engage in extracurricular activities are awesome. What isn't awesome is when young adults sacrifice their health and are encouraged to push aside the education they receive as compensation for being underpaid entertainers in million-dollar industries.
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Jan 10, 2014 20:47
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RalphTheWonderLlama posted:Why? I'm sure there is a plausible argument to be made. However, I am a music teacher. I often find significant similarities between my chorus class and an athletic team in contrast with other academic classes. Any good music educator will defend the academic legitimacy and importance of the arts and our ensembles to the death. I imagine similar logic applies to athletics. As a former music student, I agree. It is also why I suggested Sports Performance and Sports Education degrees earlier. Tender Bender posted:Students who engage in extracurricular activities are awesome. What isn't awesome is when young adults sacrifice their health and are encouraged to push aside the education they receive as compensation for being underpaid entertainers in million-dollar industries. This is also true. Music students are not exploited, "guided", or "helped" to the degree major athletes are. Also, music students can earn money playing in gigs or doing whatever else without losing their scholarship, IIRC.
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Jan 10, 2014 21:05
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Hell, part of being in the college jazz band is playing bar gigs and getting trashed with the faculty. I love New York City but man if you went to college somewhere other than a small town you missed out.
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Jan 10, 2014 22:03
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LARGE THE HEAD posted:And just wait until you dig deeper into high school sports! Don't worry I know. High Schools and middle schools and now elementary schools having sports is really terrible. It's all been spoiled by money and have-to-win attitude.
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Jan 11, 2014 00:39
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Crazy Ted posted:For a cool longer story, check out this Guardian piece on the time one of the original NASL teams decided to spend their entire seven-month offseason playing around the world, with them winding up playing in 26 countries including Cyprus, Pakistan, Burma, and Vietnam during wartime. This is awesome, thanks for sharing.
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Jan 11, 2014 01:09
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DJExile posted:You could do an entire 30 for 30 on high school football around Texas and Oklahoma. "Pony Excess" touched on it somewhat. Peanut President posted:Don't worry I know. High Schools and middle schools and now elementary schools having sports is really terrible. It's all been spoiled by money and have-to-win attitude. Speaking of.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFXpqZzFgy4
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Jan 11, 2014 01:40
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Kalli posted:Speaking of.... That is goddamn horrifying
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Jan 11, 2014 01:43
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RalphTheWonderLlama posted:Why? I'm sure there is a plausible argument to be made. However, I am a music teacher. I often find significant similarities between my chorus class and an athletic team in contrast with other academic classes. Any good music educator will defend the academic legitimacy and importance of the arts and our ensembles to the death. I imagine similar logic applies to athletics. I should first admit that I was intentionally making a particularly bold statement and my actual position is more nuanced. Namely, I really mean school-run inter-mural sports. Sports are a great hobby and a lot of fun, and if students want to form a team/league they should absolutely be provided with the same kind of support (and oversight) as any other extracurricular activity. And of course sports have a place in phys-ed programs and other valuable attempts to keep students active and healthy (though by college this responsibility should be passing mostly to the student). Whereas the arts are an extraordinarily important facet of culture and society, as well as extremely personally fulfilling and educationally valuable, sports are an entertainment product with the pleasant side-effect of improving physical fitness. Giving someone a scholarship for sports is as absurd as giving one for anime club, except it's possible to make a profit on the athlete by using them as slave labor. I would agree with athletics as an academic track, but I don't think there are (or ever could be) enough jobs in professional sports that schools could support a serious department or encourage kids into that major with a straight face. If it's really necessary that those athletes who do happen to have a shot at professional play have a formalized curriculum, it seems more apt for a trade school (much like the function of art schools, conservatories, dance schools, etc.). Of course, none of this matters all that much because we care a hell of a lot more about entertainment and profiteering than educating our young people. Just like we'll never see professional sports restructured to ditch private team ownership and the obscene stadium deals that go with it. ----- e: ^^^ In addition to the health risks to these kids, listen to the culture that they're getting steeped in. "You have the opportunity today to rip their frickin head off and let them bleed" would be a barbaric thing to say to a group of soldiers in a war and this is an authority figure saying it to a bunch of small children about other small children. The lessons that these children are learning about competition, masculinity, and violence will scar them for life, and very likely quite a few of the people they interact with. Mornacale fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 01:52
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RalphTheWonderLlama posted:That is goddamn horrifying Holy poo poo. I mean, had Friday Night Lights had fictional characters acting this way, I would have said it was unrealistic. At the high school level.
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Jan 11, 2014 06:48
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It's a reality show with people playing to the cameras and being as extreme as they can. Judging all of youth football based on that is like judging all youth football on the show Dance Moms. It's pathetic that they would air something like that on television, but it's what some people find entertaining these days.Mr. Funny Pants posted:To be fair, the lifetime ban was appropriate regardless of the merit of the protest. But the yanking his credential for a year is hilarious. I don't know if it is fair though. You had a voter say he left names off so he didn't have to sit through a long ceremony. If you're pulling ballots because you don't like what they do with it, there should be a lot of others who lose theirs too. Mornacale posted:Whereas the arts are an extraordinarily important facet of culture and society, as well as extremely personally fulfilling and educationally valuable, sports are an entertainment product with the pleasant side-effect of improving physical fitness. Giving someone a scholarship for sports is as absurd as giving one for anime club, except it's possible to make a profit on the athlete by using them as slave labor. That's all subjective. Many people find sports a more important facet of culture and society. I guarantee many athletes find their achievements personally fulfilling. As for educationally valuable, I imagine knowledge of Early Baroque Composers is about as valuable as knowledge of a 3-Deep Zone when it comes to the real world. And the people who are shaping the Arts in today's society aren't the people who went to Oregon State on scholarship for it.
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Jan 11, 2014 07:29
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Kalli posted:Speaking of.... Jesus, those 8 year olds doing the Oklahoma drill is absolutely horrifying.
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Jan 11, 2014 07:34
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