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Does ANYONE like Vastra, Strax and Jenny? Is there anyone except Moffat himself who wants to see them back?
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Jan 16, 2014 10:56
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Bown posted:Does ANYONE like Vastra, Strax and Jenny? Is there anyone except Moffat himself who wants to see them back? I...I find them funny. 
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Jan 16, 2014 11:22
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Strax and Vastra are cool, Jenny is pretty much pure Moffat-woman so she sucks.
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Jan 16, 2014 11:56
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Angry Walrus posted:Jenny is pretty much pure Moffat-woman so she sucks. She died well in Name of the Doctor. Shame Moffat couldn't let her keep that.
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Jan 16, 2014 12:15
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Davros1 posted:It's funny, when BF got the license back in '99, they got together a bunch of writers to propose storylines, and Moffat was one of the writers present, but left shortly into when it was revealed that only Peter, Colin, and Sylvester had signed on. Apparently he wasn't interested in writing for any Doctor other than McGann . . . then never did one when they did get McGann. Which is strange considering how much he loves Peter. This is all interesting. Moffat doing an audio would probably have been fun. Where did you learn all this?
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Jan 16, 2014 12:30
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moment of Paul Cornell being a dick to Nick Briggs.
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Bown posted:Does ANYONE like Vastra, Strax and Jenny? Is there anyone except Moffat himself who wants to see them back? I generally like them, but have two problems with them. First, like several other Moffat creations, they're just overused. He used them three or four times in about six months. They probably should be restricted to once a season at most. The second issue I have is with their initial introduction in A Good Man Goes to War. While it makes logical sense that The Doctor would have friends we haven't seen before, it's cheap and confusing from a storytelling perspective. I think The Snowmen would have worked as a better introduction for them. It makes sense that he would befriend some of the locals while hanging out in the area for a long time.
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Jan 16, 2014 14:01
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Bown posted:Does ANYONE like Vastra, Strax and Jenny? Is there anyone except Moffat himself who wants to see them back? Hi! 
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Jan 16, 2014 14:10
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Davros1 posted:It's funny, when BF got the license back in '99, they got together a bunch of writers to propose storylines, and Moffat was one of the writers present, but left shortly into when it was revealed that only Peter, Colin, and Sylvester had signed on. Apparently he wasn't interested in writing for any Doctor other than McGann . . . then never did one when they did get McGann. Which is strange considering how much he loves Peter. To be fair, The Sirens of Time was also pretty much shite.
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Jan 16, 2014 14:22
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At worst it failed trying to do the right thing, rather than succeeding at doing the wrong one.
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Jan 16, 2014 14:32
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Diabolik900 posted:I generally like them, but have two problems with them. This is my issue. It means we're basically guaranteed two episodes in modern Cardiff and two episodes in Victorian London a season. They're a fun little group that can be played for humor in a Jago and Lightfoot-esque way, but they're used as a matter of course and episode writing has sometimes been framed around them, instead of using them as a tool to fill out an episode that was already Victorian.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:13
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Have we actually had an episode set in Cardiff since Boom Town?
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Jan 16, 2014 16:20
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I am left by this discussion with the unfortunate suspicion that some among us did not enjoy The Crimson Horror. I assume, of course, that I must be mistaken.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:24
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Diabolik900 posted:The second issue I have is with their initial introduction in A Good Man Goes to War. While it makes logical sense that The Doctor would have friends we haven't seen before, it's cheap and confusing from a storytelling perspective.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:31
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Gorn Myson posted:I'm probably not the only one, but I genuinely thought for ages that they were introduced in an earlier episode or an internet thingie that I had completely passed me by. Both the actress who plays Vastra and the actor who plays Strax did, in fairness, appear in earlier episodes as respective members of their species, which didn't help the 'I should know who these people are, shouldn't I' feelings. They're my favorite side characters that Moffat's created (with the possible exception of Handles), and while yes, I can see why people might get tired of them, that hasn't happened to me yet.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:39
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Gorn Myson posted:I'm probably not the only one, but I genuinely thought for ages that they were introduced in an earlier episode or an internet thingie that I had completely passed me by. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say Strax isn't the guy from The Sontaran Stratagem, either. edit: beaten like an unwanted puppy
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Jan 16, 2014 16:39
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Gorn Myson posted:I'm probably not the only one, but I genuinely thought for ages that they were introduced in an earlier episode or an internet thingie that I had completely passed me by. You're not the only one. Whenever somebody starts with New Who and does a watchthrough, they inevitably ask the thread which classic episode they can watch to find Strax and/or Vastra's introduction. edit: to be clear, I'm not tired of them, I just wish they would use them less so there'd be a bit more variety and so that I could (eventually) get tired of them less quickly.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:40
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Wasn't the whole idea behind " A Good Man Goes To War" that the doctor gathers up past allies to help him out in his hour of need? Did Moffat just flat out forgot that you need to actually establish these allies before you can bring them back? Would be a very Moffat thing to do. One of his writing quirks is definitely that he likes the pay off more than the build up.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:40
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e X posted:Wasn't the whole idea behind " A Good Man Goes To War" that the doctor gathers up past allies to help him out in his hour of need? Did Moffat just flat out forgot that you need to actually establish these allies before you can bring them back? Would be a very Moffat thing to do. One of his writing quirks is definitely that he likes the pay off more than the build up. To be fair, he did apparently want to get Captain Jack in it too, but John Barrowman was busy filming Torchwood.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:45
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He did the same thing with both Mels and Tasha Lem. I'm generally more in the pro-Moffat camp, but he likes to introduce long-time friends who have never been seen or mentioned before, which is just bad storytelling.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:47
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Bown posted:Does ANYONE like Vastra, Strax and Jenny? Is there anyone except Moffat himself who wants to see them back? I actually really like Strax, he's pretty good for some light comic relief. The other two I couldn't care less about.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:47
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e X posted:Did Moffat just flat out forgot that you need to actually establish these allies before you can bring them back? If by 'forget' you mean 'realized that you don't have to do any such thing', sure. It's a trick that Moffat relies on a bit too often, I agree (like all of Moffat's tricks), but I hardly think it's a cardinal sin. We find out everything we need to know about these people as they're introduced, and there's no reason to believe we've met absolutely everyone of significance to the Doctor onscreen. Besides, he did call on previously-seen allies as well. (The pirates from Curse of the Black Spot and the space-capable Spitfires from New Paint Job Of The Daleks, most notably). And, as previously mentioned, Captain Jack Harkness was meant to be in.
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Jan 16, 2014 16:52
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Bown posted:Does ANYONE like Vastra, Strax and Jenny? Is there anyone except Moffat himself who wants to see them back? The Doctor's angry-yet-childish insults with Strax during The Snowmen were amazing.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:08
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My problem with the Paternoster Gang is that they’re all one note characters built around a single joke/idea and not given any characterization beyond that. Strax is the worst example of this. It’s very obvious that Moffat’s only thought when creating the character was “Wouldn’t it be hilarious if a SONTARAN was a NURSE?” and then called it a day. His only reason for existing is to wear silly outfits and say SONTARAN things. He can be funny, but the schtick gets old fast and I can’t imagine Moffat stretching that poo poo out for the rest of the character’s existence. Vastra fares best out of all three, but she still suffers from Moffat’s usual characterization of women. We’re told that she’s intelligent and cunning and all these other things, but we’re rarely shown this. She’s presented as a female Sherlock, but it really only sticks in The Crimson Horror. In every other appearance she just follows along in the Doctor’s wake so that Matt Smith has someone to discuss the plot resolution with. Jenny suffers from a similar fault in characterization as Strax, but her issue is that she is entirely defined by her relationship with Vastra. She only exists as a reason for Vastra to show emotion or make relationship jokes. In the one minuscule chance we’ve seen her exist for a reason beyond that, Moffat turned her into an over-sexualized Emma Peel knockoff. And yes, I know, “That’s because that episode featured Diana Rigg!”, but it’s not an excuse. They’ve been in four episodes. The jokes have been told and played out. Just give them a loving rest already.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:12
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Strax is definitely a one-note character whose every line is the same joke but I have to admit that for some reason I'm not tired of the joke yet. His Sontaran style "Don't use cell phones, but do enjoy some popcorn!" was one of the highlights of seeing DOtD in the theater.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:22
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e X posted:Wasn't the whole idea behind " A Good Man Goes To War" that the doctor gathers up past allies to help him out in his hour of need? Did Moffat just flat out forgot that you need to actually establish these allies before you can bring them back? Would be a very Moffat thing to do. One of his writing quirks is definitely that he likes the pay off more than the build up. This is something I actually disagree with quite a bit. I'm not sure where the idea that every character needs an "origin story" comes from (comic books is the obvious guess, but I'm not 100% on it), but if you checked out most media you'll find it simply isn't true. Does it really make sense to watch, say, The Maltese Falcon, and when Spade and Archer come on the screen, throw up you hands and cry "Woah! Who are these guys? When did they meet? I didn't see their first adventure together! And now you expect me to care when (spoilers for the first 10 minutes of the film) Archer dies? Where was the build up?" No way. You get that they're partners from the way they act, what their working dynamic is, etc. just by the way the scenes are shot and the information provided by the film. How and why they got that way is unimportant to the story. Now, Doctor Who is, of course, not one of the best films ever made. But I'm fine with simply implying that there was an adventure that introduced a gang of mystery solvers in Victorian England that the Doctor knows, and we just haven't seen it, and probably never will. They have enough characterization and establishment that we can easily imagine any number of ways for the Doctor to have encountered them and found them trustworthy. Toph Bei Fong fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 17:24
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Bicyclops posted:Strax is definitely a one-note character whose every line is the same joke but I have to admit that for some reason I'm not tired of the joke yet. His Sontaran style "Don't use cell phones, but do enjoy some popcorn!" was one of the highlights of seeing DOtD in the theater. Yeah, agreed. Strax is be the kind of recurring one note character that usually makes my toes curl, but for some inexplicable reason I still find him funny. It helps that his actor is really clearly having poo poo loads of fun with the role.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:36
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While I wasn't a big fan of the Universe RTD crafted I really didn't like how it felt like 11 fell into a different universe in the Eleventh hour. So I like that 12 is interacting with people 11 did too. Makes it feel less like a whole brand new start IMO. I could watch Strax talk about getting the memory worm over and over. I know it was stupid obvious comedy but I loved it.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:47
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Not only was I expecting to meet the trio for the first time when I went from 11's run to watching from the start of the revival, but when i got to the doctor's daughter for a little bit I thought i had found it because the clone was named jenny and was a born kung fu soldier. I'm bad with faces, took a minute to realize not only were they not the same actress but also the doctor hadn't been familiar with lizard lover jenny's combat prowess.
Hemingway To Go! fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 17:58
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That trio and River have the same problem- they were originally introduced to give the series some sweeping breadth, like "look how big this universe is, look how much happens off-screen, look how many mysteries are left to be explored!" And if they had been used just the one time, or possibly twice, they would have successfully conveyed that vibe. But by returning to the same well OVER AND OVER AND OVER, they have the exact opposite effect- they make 'all of time and space' look about as populated as a medium-sized town.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:08
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Regarde Aduck posted:They really don't. I wish they did but they all love him as much as you do. It's loving terrible. There's only one Doctor Who writer responsible for multiple classics who hasn't also produced a complete stinker: John Lucarotti Prize if you got it!
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Jan 16, 2014 19:10
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MrL_JaKiri posted:There's only one Doctor Who writer responsible for multiple classics who hasn't also produced a complete stinker: John Lucarotti Liar. Douglas Adams
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Jan 16, 2014 19:29
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Blasphemeral posted:Liar. Douglas Adams He only did like one and a half plus a canceled/never produced one, though.
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Jan 16, 2014 19:51
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MrL_JaKiri posted:There's only one Doctor Who writer responsible for multiple classics who hasn't also produced a complete stinker: John Lucarotti He was responsible for Dodo. That's an entire laundry list of awful.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:01
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Bicyclops posted:He only did like one and a half plus a canceled/never produced one, though. Cancelled/never produced shouldn't exactly count against him, especially given the number of times now that it's been remixed/remade suggest that it was a generally well-liked story. I know I personally enjoyed the Paul McGann audio of it.
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Jan 16, 2014 20:19
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So do you think that, now they have Tom and Lalla in the studio together, Big Finish is going to do yet another version of Shada? Shada 2: Electric Boogaloo...
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Jan 16, 2014 20:57
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DoctorWhat posted:So do you think that, now they have Tom and Lalla in the studio together, Big Finish is going to do yet another version of Shada? ...written by Eoin Colfer.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:00
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egon_beeblebrox posted:This is all interesting. Moffat doing an audio would probably have been fun. Where did you learn all this? The Big Finish book "Doctor Who: The New Audio Adventures: The Inside Story" by Benjamin Cook. It's from 2003, though it looks like it's out of print.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:34
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Blasphemeral posted:Cancelled/never produced shouldn't exactly count against him, especially given the number of times now that it's been remixed/remade suggest that it was a generally well-liked story. I still find it hilarious that Douglas Adams borrows from Doctor Who in the Hitchhiker radio series.
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Jan 16, 2014 22:36
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Blasphemeral posted:Liar. Douglas Adams Script editor on Creature from the Pit, there's a cavalcade of success! Burkion posted:He was responsible for Dodo. That's an entire laundry list of awful. He wasn't afaik, she just appeared at the end of one of his stories. bobkatt013 posted:I still find it hilarious that Douglas Adams borrows from Doctor Who in the Hitchhiker radio series. Shada + City of Death = Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency. Very very very precisely.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:02
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Shada + City of Death = Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency. Very very very precisely. As much as I love all three of them, it's shameless.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:25
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