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...of SCIENCE! posted:Also having Dean Hardscrabble be pointlessly petty and cruel to the point where she would ruin the lives of two students for offending her was like something out of those "and then the professor made them bow down before Karl Marx and revoke Jesus and expelled the student for disproving evolution" e-mail forwards your grandma sends you. It was really uncharacteristically shallow characterization from Pixar, almost as if they needed to manufacture some conflict in the name of re-using their existing IP in a genre pastiche for marketing purposes instead of letting a story rise organically from something new and exciting. I like the Dean in the movie actually. She's completely right about them for the most part. At the point in the movie where she ruins them both are so single minded in how they're going about their lives, that if they continue on their path they will fail. Mike will never be a good scarer and Sully just assumes he's better than he actually is. As they are, both of them don't really have a chance of making it. When they unexpectedly overcome their flaws, she admits that she was wrong about them.
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Jan 17, 2014 04:15
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khwarezm posted:Uh, are you going the whole 'libertarian tract' interpretation of the Incredibles? Well, I don't think that's necessarily the most reasonable way to view the movie. But it's still there. Actually I was more thinking about the whole "superheroes have to go into hiding because greedy personal injury lawyers" thing. I forget- how were the lawsuits described in the movie? I read a kid's book in a doctor's office that was clearly going for that political angle and that incident agitated me to the point I might be judging the film itself unfairly.
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Jan 17, 2014 04:29
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Some Guy TT posted:Well, I don't think that's necessarily the most reasonable way to view the movie. But it's still there. Actually I was more thinking about the whole "superheroes have to go into hiding because greedy personal injury lawyers" thing. I forget- how were the lawsuits described in the movie? I read a kid's book in a doctor's office that was clearly going for that political angle and that incident agitated me to the point I might be judging the film itself unfairly. The whole theme of the movie is the mundane and ordinary suppressing the fantastic and incredible. The heroes weren't going into hiding as they were signing paperwork stating that they were retiring from hero work and agreeing to not use their abilities to save people anymore. Bob isn't allowed to do hero work, he's on probation, as is every other hero on the government's list. It's the equivalent of the tallest man in the world being ordered by the court to stop being so tall because it's been decided his tallness is unfair to all the people who are shorter than him, he should be short too. Or something. I haven't seen the movie in the a while. The lawsuits weren't hugely elaborated upon, and I imagine it's more the public pressure to shut down the hero program that actually did the job, the lawsuit was just the light that started that public disapproval going, with tabloids and gossip rags carrying the torch. The superhero's in The Incredibles are all under a government program, if I remember right, and you don't need to look very hard in superhero fiction to find stories of governments and public opinions on superheros swinging between positive and negative.
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Jan 17, 2014 04:51
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khwarezm posted:Has there been an upsurge in the amount of traditional stuff coming out of France in the last decade? Yes? I think. I don't really know, but really the first time I heard of a French animated cartoon was around the Time Triplets of Bellville had come out. isn't one of the most premiere animated schools in France, Goeblins or something? http://variety.com/2013/biz/news/with-french-animation-on-fire-in-hollywood-bizzers-are-scrambling-for-their-share-1200600494/ It sounds like it's a pretty big thing. I had no idea Despicable Me was made in France, either. Also,  Here's the full movie on Youtube, turn on <cc> for subtitles. Here's the trailer if you're not sure you want to watch it Drifter fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 05:13
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"Psy’s “Gangnam Style” plays prominently into a mid-film dance sequence and a post-credits curtain call (including an animated cameo from the singer himself)." Confirmed. http://www.avclub.com/review/the-nut-job-is-a-tedious-cookie-cutter-family-film-200845
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Jan 17, 2014 05:44
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Yessssss! Can't wait for Jay Dub's inevitable review.
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Jan 17, 2014 05:49
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SatansBestBuddy posted:The whole theme of the movie is the mundane and ordinary suppressing the fantastic and incredible. The heroes weren't going into hiding as they were signing paperwork stating that they were retiring from hero work and agreeing to not use their abilities to save people anymore. Bob isn't allowed to do hero work, he's on probation, as is every other hero on the government's list. It's the equivalent of the tallest man in the world being ordered by the court to stop being so tall because it's been decided his tallness is unfair to all the people who are shorter than him, he should be short too. Also, half the movie takes place on No-man-is-an Island, if I recall.
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Jan 17, 2014 07:17
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At some point you need to weigh intent against realized message because agree with it or not, a huge number of people independently developed the libertarian read of Incredibles. I don't wholly agree but I don't wholly disagree either; to me it's backed up by more in the film that some of the other interpretations of animated films that are more widely accepted.
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Jan 17, 2014 09:27
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SatansBestBuddy posted:The whole theme of the movie is the mundane and ordinary suppressing the fantastic and incredible. The heroes weren't going into hiding as they were signing paperwork stating that they were retiring from hero work and agreeing to not use their abilities to save people anymore. Bob isn't allowed to do hero work, he's on probation, as is every other hero on the government's list. It's the equivalent of the tallest man in the world being ordered by the court to stop being so tall because it's been decided his tallness is unfair to all the people who are shorter than him, he should be short too. I don't know if it's as simple as "the mundane suppressing the incredible." I mean, certainly a few of the characters, most notably Bob, think like that at the beginning of the movie, but ultimately the film kind of says that being Great and Fantastic at something isn't worth anything if you're not helping people with that. When he saves the people from the burning building, or when he goes out on the first mission to fight the robot, he isn't using his powers to help anybody. He's just doing it as an excuse to relive his youth, and as a result he almost gets his whole family murdered. The entire opening sequence is even saying this. Like sure, everyone's having fun and Beating Up Bad Guys but they're doing it in a really reckless fashion that's harming a ton of people. He stopped "Bomb Voyage," but in the process caused hella pain and suffering to a populace that likely would not have felt the effects of a lovely mime stealing like two duffel bags full of money. Hell, even when he saved the cat he ripped the tree out of the ground. He's just fuckin flaunting it! But then at the end of the movie everyone is acting in the interest of other people. We gotta save the city! I gotta keep my family safe! I gotta stop this robot or else my wife's dinner party will be ruined! Basically powers are great, having talent is great, but don't be selfish and just do it to feed your own ego. Help people! That's the theme
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Jan 17, 2014 09:29
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At the end of the movie they still don't want to outshine everybody and lord over the commoners or anything like that. They let Dash compete in the race, but he still holds back.
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Jan 17, 2014 09:56
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Vargo posted:Also, half the movie takes place on No-man-is-an Island, if I recall. So then Syndrome, on Nomanisan, uses the experiences of the deaths of others (and robots) as his primary learning tool for his project. It's not exactly a profound connection that just clicked in my head but I thought it was neat anyway. FunkyAl posted:Basically powers are great, having talent is great, but don't be selfish and just do it to feed your own ego. Help people! That's the theme Helen yelling at Bob during their argument in their house really stuck with me in a "this scene never failed to completely grab my attention" kind of way. And from the first time I saw it I thought she was in the right so I could never really get behind the libertarian reading. -- I haven't seen Frozen because the early promos I saw looked, to me, super bland and uninteresting. Now I'm hearing that it's really good and has Kristen Bell. I've made a mistake, haven't I?
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Jan 17, 2014 09:57
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Gotta Wear Shades posted:I haven't seen Frozen because the early promos I saw looked, to me, super bland and uninteresting. Now I'm hearing that it's really good and has Kristen Bell. I've made a mistake, haven't I? It is a very good film which was let down by its promotion. You should see it.
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Jan 17, 2014 09:59
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re: MU, Keep in mind that Dean Hardscrabble is ENGLISH. In the "good ol' days" of "the Empire," I imagine many Brits wouldn't have even batted an eye at the dean kicking students out of a program or a track for simply not measuring up. They were still allowed to attend school; they just weren't allowed in a specific program that set a particular standard.
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Jan 17, 2014 11:13
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Tartarus Sauce posted:re: MU, Keep in mind that Dean Hardscrabble is ENGLISH. And even in American Universities even though it's not explicit there's a long tradition in some fields of making the student take a bunch of bullshit classes that are extremely hard and only tangentially related to their major in order to make sure most of them drop out.
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Jan 17, 2014 13:28
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Corek posted:"Psy’s “Gangnam Style” plays prominently into a mid-film dance sequence and a post-credits curtain call (including an animated cameo from the singer himself)." I hate this. I hate you. I hate everything.
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Jan 17, 2014 15:00
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Pick posted:At some point you need to weigh intent against realized message because agree with it or not, a huge number of people independently developed the libertarian read of Incredibles. I don't wholly agree but I don't wholly disagree either; to me it's backed up by more in the film that some of the other interpretations of animated films that are more widely accepted.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:22
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axleblaze posted:I like the Dean in the movie actually. She's completely right about them for the most part. At the point in the movie where she ruins them both are so single minded in how they're going about their lives, that if they continue on their path they will fail. Mike will never be a good scarer and Sully just assumes he's better than he actually is. As they are, both of them don't really have a chance of making it. When they unexpectedly overcome their flaws, she admits that she was wrong about them. I think this is dead on. She was a pretty realistic portrayal, in my experience. And yeah, I do now see the angle where 'work your way up from the mailroom!' is kind of bullshit, but I've had some similar experiences in my own life that gave it some credibility for me. Not literally the same, but true enough that your circumstances don't necessarily mean you're shut out of your career choice or whatever opportunities you're looking for. computer parts posted:And even in American Universities even though it's not explicit there's a long tradition in some fields of making the student take a bunch of bullshit classes that are extremely hard and only tangentially related to their major in order to make sure most of them drop out. My sister went to school for architecture and her (American) university program starts with 300 people. By graduation, roughly 30 people were left, mostly due to rounds of cuts each year, but also many students dropping out from sheer exhaustion. They basically don't want you to graduate unless you can really, really hack it. mareep fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 16:54
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My favorite Brad Bird trivia is that he worked on The Plague Dogs.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:57
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Pick posted:At some point you need to weigh intent against realized message because agree with it or not, a huge number of people independently developed the libertarian read of Incredibles. I don't wholly agree but I don't wholly disagree either; to me it's backed up by more in the film that some of the other interpretations of animated films that are more widely accepted. The biggest problem with it is that Syndrome is the clear Randian ( a guy who apparently makes his fortune with no ones help and is a techno genius) and yet no one ever mentions that.
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Jan 17, 2014 16:59
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Pick posted:My favorite Brad Bird trivia is that he worked on The Plague Dogs. Huh. That's pretty cool.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:02
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computer parts posted:The biggest problem with it is that Syndrome is the clear Randian ( a guy who apparently makes his fortune with no ones help and is a techno genius) and yet no one ever mentions that. Except that's his sympathetic trait. If he'd inherited everything from his father he'd have no redeeming qualities at all.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:05
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The one scene in The Incredibles that always bothered me is Syndrome's monologue about how he'll sell his inventions to the general public so that everyone can be Super. The film makes it sound incredibly sinister, but it seems like it would actually be a good thing. It's kind of hard to read this as anything other than "only select people are allowed to be special", which is probably where the libertarian interpretation comes from.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:22
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Samuel Clemens posted:The one scene in The Incredibles that always bothered me is Syndrome's monologue about how he'll sell his inventions to the general public so that everyone can be Super. The film makes it sound incredibly sinister, but it seems like it would actually be a good thing. It's kind of hard to read this as anything other than "only select people are allowed to be special", which is probably where the libertarian interpretation comes from. The sinister thing is that you'd have to be dumb to think that he is sincere. Syndrome wants to be special a lot more than actual special people do.
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Jan 17, 2014 17:54
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Samuel Clemens posted:The one scene in The Incredibles that always bothered me is Syndrome's monologue about how he'll sell his inventions to the general public so that everyone can be Super. The film makes it sound incredibly sinister, but it seems like it would actually be a good thing. It's kind of hard to read this as anything other than "only select people are allowed to be special", which is probably where the libertarian interpretation comes from. Well, I think the idea is that his plan would homogenize the concept of heroes, allowing everyone to be their own Mr. Incredible (or in Syndrome's mind, everyone can be like him) which means that the wonder and awe of heroes like that would be lost on the world, since it'd be average every day stuff to see someone fly in and zap a bad guy or whatever. I think the real reason it sounds so sinister is because Jason Lee nails that moment with his voice acting. I honestly think Syndrome is my favorite part of the movie. He's a great villain that, on first viewing, comes as a total surprise.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:11
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My major problem with the Randian interpretation is that a key point of Rand's ideology is that the "better" people cause society to function. Without them, society will fall into chaos and anarchy. And yet, in this film, the exact opposite happens. Society is perfectly fine without superheroes. Sure, a few more might die like in that fire that Mr. Incredible helps out with, but on the whole there is not any sort of inherent dysfunction in society, at least not one that superheroes solved before (insurance companies being scummy would fall under that sort of dysfunction). In fact, it takes an actual Randian being a selfish prick to actually require superheroes to come out of hiding and save the day. This isn't even getting into how said selfish prick designed this robot specifically to wipe out the supposed ubermensch, but it's enough to show that clearly the film is not supporting the interpretation that many are putting forward.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:50
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Samuel Clemens posted:The one scene in The Incredibles that always bothered me is Syndrome's monologue about how he'll sell his inventions to the general public so that everyone can be Super. The film makes it sound incredibly sinister, but it seems like it would actually be a good thing. It's kind of hard to read this as anything other than "only select people are allowed to be special", which is probably where the libertarian interpretation comes from. Honestly that speech reminds me of Animal Farm, when Napoleon started getting his dirty little hooves in the power structure. It sounds like he's in it for everyone else, but it's all self-serving.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:52
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Syndrome's plan is more though than just making everyone super. In order to get there he has to: kill off tons of superheroes to test his robot, kill the Incredible family, and put an entire city at risk just so that he can swoop in and be the hero. And then he even says "and when I'm old and had my fun, I'll sell my inventions" so he isn't even doing the "everyone is super no one will be" thing until after he's had years to be a "hero". Though they do make him a little sympathetic since it's (kind of) Mr. Incredible's fault Syndrome is a villain at all.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:56
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Suppose that superpowers are, in this case, meant to represent financial specialness, and Syndrome is a perfect Ayn Rand villain, angling to create a classless society.
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Jan 17, 2014 18:59
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LaughMyselfTo posted:Suppose that superpowers are, in this case, meant to represent financial specialness, and Syndrome is a perfect Ayn Rand villain, angling to create a classless society. If superpowers are financial specialness then Syndrome is that guy who builds a monopoly from the ground up, destroys every other company on earth, and says "eh, when I die I guess I can give my money to other people". e: In that light, you can construct a reading that says that The Incredibles (the family) are liberal democracy and they're necessary to prevent against other forms of extreme capitalism, but that's again assuming that "super powers = money making power" which is not supported in the text at all (Bob is an office grunt and Helen is a stay at home Mom). computer parts fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 19:02
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To me, the whole reason why he was making it sound so sinister that he was going to make everyone a super was because he's mocking Mr Incredible. Incredible is pure ego and Syndrome was feeding into it the whole time. Paying him better, treating him like a god (complete with grape feeding), and then kicking all of that out from under him. Making everyone a super would once again take everything away from Mr Incredible. I think it also says something that his super name is "Mr Incredible", while his civilian name is simply "Bob". He is pure ego, and it rubs off on Dash, and Syndrome's whole struggle is to take it away from him. He's been a tech genius since a kid, given he could fly in that flashback scene. So he just uses it as a means to the end. He couldn't even find MI again until they stumbled upon it, but they were building up better robots until they could find him.
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Jan 17, 2014 19:43
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computer parts posted:The sinister thing is that you'd have to be dumb to think that he is sincere. Syndrome wants to be special a lot more than actual special people do. Macaluso posted:Syndrome's plan is more though than just making everyone super. In order to get there he has to: kill off tons of superheroes to test his robot, kill the Incredible family, and put an entire city at risk just so that he can swoop in and be the hero. And then he even says "and when I'm old and had my fun, I'll sell my inventions" so he isn't even doing the "everyone is super no one will be" thing until after he's had years to be a "hero". Both of these are valid points and I agree that Syndrome is neither trustworthy nor charitable. My problem mostly comes from the way the scene is presented. Lee's reading of the line "If everyone's super, then no one will be" makes it seem as if this concept in itself was objectionable. That even if Syndrome wasn't a megalomaniac and his inventions weren't built upon despicable methods making everyone equally great would still be a morally wrong action, because it reduces the status of the chosen few. The reason I feel this way is because the "super" line comes at the very end of the monologue in which he reveals his evil plans. It even receives a special pause for dramatic effect, so you'd assume that it's meant to be his worst threat; a statement which makes it unambiguously clear that he's evil beyond redemption. Instead the line is the one part of his speech that individually could be construed as a good thing. Edit: IUG posted:To me, the whole reason why he was making it sound so sinister that he was going to make everyone a super was because he's mocking Mr Incredible. Incredible is pure ego and Syndrome was feeding into it the whole time. Paying him better, treating him like a god (complete with grape feeding), and then kicking all of that out from under him. Making everyone a super would once again take everything away from Mr Incredible. That's actually a very good point that didn't even cross my mind. A large part of Syndrome's plan is getting revenge on Mr Incredible for looking down on him when he was a kid. The "Everyone's super" line directly feeds into Incredible's primal fear: losing the one thing makes him unique. If everyone was super, he'd just be another average guy stuck in a dead-end job. It's not until the end of the film that he realizes what matters most to him aren't his powers, it's his family. Only once he gets past his obsession with the past is he able to take Syndrome's robot down. When looking at it like that The Incredibles message is a remarkably positive one. Super powers aren't what make us special, it's the relationships we have with the people around us. Syndrome fails to realize that which is why he ultimately fails. Samuel Clemens fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 19:49
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I thought he failed because I didn't take to heart the most important message that came out of Watchmen: No Capes
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Jan 17, 2014 20:16
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Would you guys say it's an accurate statement to say we're in the middle of a second Disney Renaissance?
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Jan 18, 2014 02:12
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bowser posted:Would you guys say it's an accurate statement to say we're in the middle of a second Disney Renaissance? It seems like a fair statement, especially if you give the beginnings as with Princess and the Frog even though that one was markedly different from the others (but then so was The Little Mermaid in a way). It looks like the upcoming films are kind of sparse though, the next Disney picture is that Marvel production Big Hero 6 and then there's nothing until 2016 planned. I guess we have Inside Out and/or The Good Dinosaur from Pixar to kind of balance that out though.
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Jan 18, 2014 02:17
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bowser posted:Would you guys say it's an accurate statement to say we're in the middle of a second Disney Renaissance?  what? No.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:09
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neonnoodle posted:
I have no opinion on this, but why not?
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Jan 18, 2014 04:11
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The Nut Job ends with every single character doing the Gangnam Style dance with an animated Psy over the end credits. The whole goddamn song.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:16
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bowser posted:Would you guys say it's an accurate statement to say we're in the middle of a second Disney Renaissance? The first renaissance was a long period last pretty much from '89 to '99. Despite the critical success and the relative box office success of TPatF, the 'under performance' has made it into corporate black spot on their record. It can be sorta considered the inverse of Oliver and Company. Where Oliver was a commercial success but a critical dud leading to yearly releases, Frog and to a lesser extent Pooh, were commercial non-starters, leading to an end of traditional Disney films. A better comparison is Tangled and Frozen to Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. Little Mermaid was the attention-geter, and Frozen is the thing to blow up into a cultural phenomenon, and usher in the official renaissance. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think we're just beginning here.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:34
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Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, I finally saw the trailer for The Boxtrolls tonight, and hoooooly poo poo does it look good. I realize everybody has already seen it, but I held off because it was something I wanted to see on the big screen first. And man oh man, I am beyond excited for this film. The only thing that put a damper on it was the fact that the trailer immediately led into The loving Nut Job.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:41
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Jay Dub posted:The Nut Job ends with every single character doing the Gangnam Style dance with an animated Psy over the end credits. The whole goddamn song. This is gonna be the best Current Releases ever.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:51
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